SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Tdp goes up exponentially higher as you increase clocks past a certain point. If the devkit were at 1.47 ghz. That's your sweet spot. Any increase beyond that is going to cost you 2-3x the power usage.
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vpance
Member
64 is only for the dev kit. Retail will have higher clocks and disabled CUs, probably 4 to 6 of.
eastwood333
Banned
They did not say PS5 is 13 TF. Stop spreading false info please.They said both would be in the 12TF neighborhood.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Actually, Klee said that there is possibility of double digit difference. And after XSX reveal, he didn't change his mind. Especially when yesterday said he has spec sheet for both consoles. If XSX is 12 TF, then 7% difference is 12.9 TF. 10% would be 13.3
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megreotsugua
Banned
Imagine Sony taking advantage of the open and royalty-free "memory-semantic" protocol called Gen Z.
If what PS5 have consists of HBM, DDR4, and an ultra-fast persistent memory, then I think Gen Z will be the key to the integration of all its components. This leads to much simpler software and hardware, and this simplicity drives performance and lower costs.
Sounds to me like a "custom SSD" that has direct lanes to the CPU, GPU, I/O, and main memory eliminating bandwidth restriction and latency. Now imagine that "custom SSD" is actually an Intel 3D XPoint with ultra-low latency. But I doubt Sony would use Intel's 3D XPoint because that's expensive.
If what PS5 have consists of HBM, DDR4, and an ultra-fast persistent memory, then I think Gen Z will be the key to the integration of all its components. This leads to much simpler software and hardware, and this simplicity drives performance and lower costs.
Sounds to me like a "custom SSD" that has direct lanes to the CPU, GPU, I/O, and main memory eliminating bandwidth restriction and latency. Now imagine that "custom SSD" is actually an Intel 3D XPoint with ultra-low latency. But I doubt Sony would use Intel's 3D XPoint because that's expensive.
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Kdad
Member
I submit, for your consideration, the FACT...yes FACT, that I ordered a dozen (thats 12 in laymans' terms) donuts this fine morning at my local purveyor of baked sweets.
Upon opening said box at the office just now, we did indeed, INDEED I SAY, have a total of 13 donuts.
It is upon this evidence that I humbly submit that 12 can easily, EASILY, be interpreted as 13. The evidence of this is all around us.
Upon opening said box at the office just now, we did indeed, INDEED I SAY, have a total of 13 donuts.
It is upon this evidence that I humbly submit that 12 can easily, EASILY, be interpreted as 13. The evidence of this is all around us.
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Mass Shift
Member
He's human you know. Lol He's probably begun to enjoy the worship. That's why he can't stop revisiting and posting.
If he actually has documents/diagrams/schematics it would be easy to validate. I would imagine that you just can't post those, so it would take some time to replicate them the way VG Leaks did for forum consumption.
if the documents can't be validated then there's obviously a problem with the source, information and/or timeframe associated with it.
megreotsugua
Banned
My PS5 memory system prediction:
16GB HBM2E
128GB ultra-fast SSD soldered on the board
1TB Sata 4.0 QLC SSD
16GB HBM2E
128GB ultra-fast SSD soldered on the board
1TB Sata 4.0 QLC SSD
pawel86ck
Banned
That's what Klee started saying later on, but I dont accept excuses like that. If I would know for sure XSX GPU is not 64CU, then I would never quote everything (including misinformation) and say "bingo" to that. I would specifically say 12TF metric is correct, but not CU's.
I'm not saying Klee is fake insider, because who knows maybe he is not lying, but at this point I just cant trust him.
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Aceofspades
Banned
I thought you couldn't disable 2CUs in Navi you had to go multiples of 4?
ANIMAL1975
Member
Everything in your "character" screams about trolling.
First hint is the name. People that want to play the role of trustworthy user use "real name" kind of names on these forums because it gives some hidden ideas to other users
Like "he is using real name, so nothing to hide/troll would use something like gangstaman69" subconsious reactions.
Rest is just that quite clear mind games of a tennis, where troll defends every claim with something that could be true, but is easy to say and hard to prove.
And there are always people that WANT to believe so they hang on every small bit of information that verify their feelings and needs and ignore the rest.
That is the trolls job, to be vague enough to give that feeling that maybe it is true, and use small pieces of information that is already out there and add some guesses in the soup.
And then say stuff like "just wait and see"
Most real insiders dont have to play mind games and defend themselves.
Source: used to be master troll on other kind of subjects in my past life
Mod of War
words: "Tommy didn't provide sufficient enough evidence. But this does not mean that he is not credible... " he wasn't banned from the thread, he wasn't prohibited from continuing to share information! Maybe he had the documents but wasn't allowed to reveal his source... maybe he made proof of his source, but he/she couldn't or didn't want to provide the documentation to prove what was shared with him... only the mods know what was it, what is factual is that he received the authorisation to continue share what he knows with us! So if you guys think that he is a troll, that he is only seeking for attention, and spreading bullshit, that he should be banned, then you should bring it to
Mod of War
and the other mods, and call them out for whatever you think they did wrong.
xool
Member
[try again]
My understanding the split is at the least significant bits , rather than splitting at the 3GB/4GB/3GB mark .. in practice this balances out the inconsistency
I don't see this frequently discussed - example below
Using this as the example : that's 3x2GB, 4x1GB, 3x2GB (=16GB)
GDDR6 "granularity" is 32 bytes (I think), so for the first lump of memory
- 0-31 & 32-63 byte - chip 1
- 64-95 & 96-127 btye - chip 2
- 128-159 & 160-191 btye - chip 3
- 192-223 byte - chip 4
- 224-255 byte - chip 5
- 256-287 byte - chip 6
- 288-319 byte - chip 7
- 320-351 & 352-383 byte - chip 8
- 384-415 & 416-447 byte - chip 9
- 448-479 & 480-511 byte - chip 10
- 512 byte onwards, repeat the pattern
This is handled at the memory controller level (hardware) - it's common practice because it balances out memory access and maximises use of all memory, even when there is a block of frequently used memory at a specific location (ie prevents bottlenecking on a specific ram chip containing important/frequent code/data) [.. it also works if you only use a small fraction of the memory, rather than focusing all the memory access on the first chip ..]
..this definately doesn't have to be an issue, even if it looks odd.
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Dee Dah Dave
Member
A couple of people the other day on Twitter hinted at the Scarlett announcement at the game awards and to make sure to watch the first 30 minutes. A few minutes later that Klee person was doing the same thing, making it look like the info is coming from him.
You have to watch these sneaky attention grabbers, it's easy to fool the gullible!
You have to watch these sneaky attention grabbers, it's easy to fool the gullible!
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The Mad Draklor
Member
That's what's confusing me with the people who overreacted. The difference in terraflops between SeX and PS5 is supposedly less than 10%. This is nothing compared to around the ~40% difference between the XB1 and PS4.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I've been talking about this for weeks now xD. But yes, it's possible they could use 3D Xpoint. However, they'd have to get it through Intel since Micron folded their production for it last year. Same with MS.
Worked out the potential pricing and I think with BOMs of between $500 and $600 they can safely procure between 64-128GB of PCM 3D Xpoint memory as a (preferably non-removable) cache in the next-gen systems interfaced through a DRAM memory controller. That would also help push it as a standard on the PC side down the line, particularly with integration on GPU cards.
It would be similar to AMD's SSG cards but better in that 3D Xpoint has all-around better performance than NAND and has the alterability of DRAM while providing true random access. I'll probably edit this post with the other post I made listing out the pricing breakidown (though I did the pricing with ReRAM in mind, but just shave off 5% of the pricing totals for 3D Xpoint and read it with Optane/3D Xpoint in mind instead of ReRAM).
Here's the post:
It's possible that Sony and MS could get the price per GB within the $1.50-$2.00 range, even, which would make capacities larger than 64GB much more likely.
You can scratch this off the list tho; they're not going with HBM2E. There really isn't much of a point when weighing price to performance compared to GDDR6. Maybe for PS6 though.
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ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
I have my inside contact below!
vpance
Member
If true then make it 4-8. Point is retail will definitely have disabled CUs. The amount of active CUs is probably only known by a select few people.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You have a point. No matter what everyone's platform preference is, the beauty about this forum is that we would all come together to point at laugh at the others that act a fool.
The moderation team does a good job not to go all in on banning first. They drop a note, thread removals at first, we all calm down, shake hands and go on. You have to do some very annoying or cunty things to get gone.
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TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
my current reactions from reading this thread from info with Tommy and then Mod of War etc.
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
This is one of the reasons I avoided the old NeoGAF in the past, I figured I would end up pissing someone off and getting immediately banned. The forum is a lot more calm and reasonable now which is nice to see!
Gamernyc78
Banned
I actually like the little banter back and forth but don't mind when a mod pops up and tells me or one of us to calm the fuck down lol. In the end I want both systems to be beasts and everyone to enjoy next year's holidays playing the games thy love.
I hate when shit gets political though or overly sensitive about shit but this is the generation we live in and you find tht everywhere.
xool
Member
(I think it's the other way - Micron acquired Intel's share of the fab that makes the Xpoint chips .. I dunno if Intel now produces at a separate site, or buys in [edit - moving production to china sometime] .. though it sounds like they have overcapacity problems .. which could mean better prices ..)
[but 3dxpoint as RAM is currently only supported by Intel chips .. problems]
I don't think we'll see persistent RAM in base next gen consoles .. (though I think you're on point about massive mark-ups on the product - they do have huge capex to pay off though initially ..) but I think MS might offer an elite series with some in .. that would make a lot of sense, especially if the rumors that Sony's base SSD tech is 2x faster ..
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ZywyPL
Banned
But were they GCN or RDNA donuts tho?
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Old Empire.
Member
It is conceivable the devs have a Sony dev kit that 13tf or greater that doesn't mean the retail version will be at that. People always forget the price they advertise the consoles at. It improbable it will be 13tf at retail.
Sony selling the PS5 at 500 dollars, it will be comparable to Xbox one/ series. Both consoles will be 10.5 to 11.5 TF my best judgment. They likely decide to obtain further performance boosts with the CPU.
AMD likely has the targets for both companies and if I saw leaks from them, it would be realistic info. Manufacture would have to be starting soon to have the new consoles ready for Christmas time.
Sony selling the PS5 at 500 dollars, it will be comparable to Xbox one/ series. Both consoles will be 10.5 to 11.5 TF my best judgment. They likely decide to obtain further performance boosts with the CPU.
AMD likely has the targets for both companies and if I saw leaks from them, it would be realistic info. Manufacture would have to be starting soon to have the new consoles ready for Christmas time.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
So, try there and share them your "sources" if you think that you have more knowledge.
It still bugs me how Phil Spencer can support people like you and sending them invites for E3 or for any show. Like he did for IIRC Mrx. or some oh his puppets
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Ah, thanks for that! So that would mean Micron is still manufacturing it, that's good news. Intel is making their own GPUs now so I don't think it's infeasible they could be manufacturing Optane themselves.
Actually rumor of PS5's SSD being over 2x faster is what's kind of leaning me to think XSEX might be utilizing some persistent RAM after all; like Sony they haven't made any mentions of RAM yet. It's still somewhat possible both Sony and MS are using it, with MS going a larger capacity amount but sacrificing speed on the replaceable SSD solution as compromise.
A lot of people thought PS4 couldn't get more than 4GB GDDR5 at one point too, so if that's shown anything, it's that these companies can surprise with things like memory...within reason. I think persistent RAM is more within reason than, say, HBM, and would have the added benefit of capacitance. I'm still gonna hold out hope it's present in both systems from the start as that would mean a ton for developers going into next-gen.
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SmokSmog
Member
looks like 60cus 1575 MHZ is optimal for 12TF
megreotsugua
Banned
Your calculation of the Intel Optane price is based on the enterprise DIMMs though. Intel has SSD variant that is much much cheaper about $1.2/gb. And that is with retail mark-up and Intel profit.
12.9TF confirmed!
nowhat
Member
I have my inside contact below!
I wonder if we hang out in the same circles, I know the same contact too! The same source has been also known to give opinion on Microsoft software:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
megreotsugua
Banned
I'm still holding out hope that ReRAM would be cheap enough to feature in a next-gen console.
Amigo Tsushui said the density they will commercialize in 2020 as an alternative to Intel Optane is 64gb and 128gb. Sony aims to release ReRAM to be a "second source" (Amigo's words) to Intel Optane in the persistent memory market.
Now if the Intel Optane is selling at $1.2/gb then we can safely assume that Sony's ReRAM should be about the same in price. Otherwise who will buy their product when an existing product (that is roughly at the same performance) is already existing in the same market. Think about that for a moment.
Then we have "claim" by Sony that their ReRAM is easier to densify than Intel Optane. The cost to manufacture could probably be even cheaper than Optane.
Is the idea that ReRAM may actually be cheaper than Optane absurb and a wishful thinking?
We cannot discount the fact that this professional analysis on its price may actually be true.
Amigo Tsushui said the density they will commercialize in 2020 as an alternative to Intel Optane is 64gb and 128gb. Sony aims to release ReRAM to be a "second source" (Amigo's words) to Intel Optane in the persistent memory market.
Now if the Intel Optane is selling at $1.2/gb then we can safely assume that Sony's ReRAM should be about the same in price. Otherwise who will buy their product when an existing product (that is roughly at the same performance) is already existing in the same market. Think about that for a moment.
Then we have "claim" by Sony that their ReRAM is easier to densify than Intel Optane. The cost to manufacture could probably be even cheaper than Optane.
Is the idea that ReRAM may actually be cheaper than Optane absurb and a wishful thinking?
We cannot discount the fact that this professional analysis on its price may actually be true.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I know of the SSD variant ones, but tbh those ones don't provide near the level of performance as the persistent RAM variants for enterprise markets. Very good NAND memory controllers for the next-gen systems (which is looking to be the case) coupled with gradual increase in baseline performance for NVMe-compatible SSDs would probably make going with the SSD Optane variant a bit redundant.
The persistent memory variant is closer to DDR4 DRAM in terms of flexibility and use-case than the consumer SSD variant, but that's also part of the reason it's more expensive. Yeah, that does mean much less of it in the next-gen systems but personally, I think the performance gains from 64GB of persistent memory would outweigh that gained from 256GB (as an example) of the SSD variant, with BOMs for both relatively the same.
So, that's what I'm hoping both MS and Sony are implementing with their next-gen systems at the baseline. We'll see soon enough what the two have cooking up in this regard.
I'm still holding out hope that ReRAM would be cheap enough to feature in a next-gen console.
Amigo Tsushui said the density they will commercialize in 2020 as an alternative to Intel Optane is 64gb and 128gb. Sony aims to release ReRAM to be a "second source" (Amigo's words) to Intel Optane in the persistent memory market.
Now if the Intel Optane is selling at $1.2/gb then we can safely assume that Sony's ReRAM should be about the same in price. Otherwise who will buy their product when an existing product (that is roughly at the same performance) is already existing in the same market. Think about that for a moment.
Then we have "claim" by Sony that their ReRAM is easier to densify than Intel Optane. The cost to manufacture could probably be even cheaper than Optane.
Is the idea that ReRAM may actually be cheaper than Optane absurb and a wishful thinking?
We cannot discount the fact that this professional analysis on its price may actually be true.
Kind of rekindles a bit of faith in ReRAM, but still feels like a pipe dream. There currently are no ReRAM ICs on the market at anywhere near those sizes; the largest seemingly available are between the KBs and small MB ranges, and aimed at embedded application processors.
There's also the feature that ReRAM, like 3D Xpoint, can act closer to either SSD or DRAM performance so if they were to go and aim for the 3D Xpoint pricing around $1.2/GB as your example, it would be ReRAM implemented in a SSD configuration to compete with Intel's variant. Which again, maybe would see some performance gains over NAND, but it wouldn't be as much as a persistent memory solution.
Really the biggest reason I doubt ReRAM will be a thing on the market by the time PS5 releases (or even be featured in PS5) is because all these companies are only announcing manufacturing targets; they still don't have any tangible products to display results, that work in real-world applications. 3D Xpoint does, and has for over two years, going on three.
xool
thankfully corrected me on the whole Micron/Intel thing and apparently Micron is still in the 3D Xpoint manufacturing business; maybe they are using results from that to spin off into ReRAM development? There's actually a lot of similarity between the two, but 3D Xpoint uses different storage physics, as a notable differentiating factor. Aside from that though it could be technically possible to spin their 3D Xpoint development into ReRAM development, and they could be doing that right now.
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eastwood333
Banned
Then all Klee has is info on dev kits and a single devs opinion
You can take everything Klee says a gospel all you want. You implied all the others confirmed PS5 is 13 TF. Even the kotaku guy (who is far more reliable) says he never said PS5 is more powerful.Then theres the known chinese insider supporting XSX is more powerful. Hell,even Phil is going on record with confidence saying he believes XSX will be the most powerful next gen console. If that weren't enough,DF seems to think XSX will be more powerful.
Why did the dev working of the PS5 exclusive list "most powerful" instead of the SsSD and better controller as the reasons?
In the end,it doesn't matter what anyone says until both specs are confirmed.
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it_wasn't_me
Banned
Btw. Klee isn't the only one who said that. That Kotaku guy also never said that XSX is more powerful than PS5. Well, we have TimDog here. You can believe him.
It was a job description on Linkedin IIRC. That phrase was removed few months ago
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demigod
Member
TARGET SPECS, jesus christ are you related to colt eastwood? Unless he said it somewhere else besides TGA, Phil never said most powerful console next gen. He said it's the most powerful xbox they've created.
44alltheway
Member
Are you that youtuber
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Precisely that. Even official Xbox twitter says that :
Btw. like Phil said, he "would like" to have a power crown.
megreotsugua
Banned
You actually make a lot of sense. We cannot take Klee's words as gospel. Whichever console is the more powerful is still up in the air.
Though, I, as a member of team blue, believe that we will win the power crown because in Cerny we trust.
eastwood333
Banned
Phil in a gamespot interview 1 week ago said " Our goal has always been to build the most powerful console we can,and i think we're there. We like leading in power and performance and i feel like we're going to be there again"
DF also states Phil is claiming XSX will be the most powerful.
No,i'm not the colteastwood guy.
DF also states Phil is claiming XSX will be the most powerful.
No,i'm not the colteastwood guy.
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eastwood333
Banned
Read the gamespot interview with Phil. DF also states Phil is claiming XSX to be the most powerful next gen console.
megreotsugua
Banned
If you look at the Sony presentation though, that 25.6gb/s ReRAM they presented is an SSD using NVME.
That's good to hear. The ReRAM dream lives another day.
eastwood333
Banned
He did in a gamespot interview.
megreotsugua
Banned
Sure 1-2GB is a lot bigger than Xbone's 32mb esram, but is that enough of capacity to actually not become a bottleneck?
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Read the Gamespot interview again :
Yeah, he has a feeling. I have a feeling too it won't be. So, back to square 1. Phil didn't said "it will be". He can feel whatever he wants to feel.
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demigod
Member
No he did not. "Think" does not mean it "will be".
Can you give me a timestamp on the DF?
eastwood333
Banned
Thats cool. In team Pano i believe, PS4 suceeded by Mattricks genius of putting kinect,tv, etc over power and forcing kinect wwith every XB1,driving the price 100 dollars more than PS4. Its a new ball game this time around and based on XB1X and MS pushing power again..will be interestingYou actually make a lot of sense. We cannot take Klee's words as gospel. Whichever console is the more powerful is still up in the air.
Though, I, as a member of team blue, believe that we will win the power crown because in Cerny we trust.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
We should make a list of people (no pastebins) that have said they heard either console is more powerful
For PS5
KleeGameFan
Colin Moriarty
Andrew Reiner
Benji sales (heard PS5 dev kit was 13 Tflops)
For Series X I need a list of people who have heard it is more powerful
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