Dave_at_Home
Member
I'm more of a 1200p at 59.7 FPS kind of guy personally.
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Mr Moose
Member
You shouldn't have to rely on your TV to fix screen tearing and shit, Ubisoft should fix it.
(It seems they did on the PS5 in the "quality" mode, no tearing).
My TV doesn't support that feature, its a Bravia from 2016 or some shit lol (KD43XD8088 I think).
Please, could you explain to me why PS5 is clearly the most powerful? I you can, i would like to know your technical explanation with data and arguments.
I think it will be funny to watch the reactions when a dev does make a game that run into compute limits more & it play better on Xbox Series X because people will act as if things have changed & that the tools are finally up to date lol. DF will accept the results & not reach out to the devs telling them to fix the bugs lol.
Mr Moose
Member
Has anyone noticed Watch_Dogs is kinda shit in a lot of ways graphically? The RT is shit (looks fine in puddles only, shit on cars and windows), water/puddles don't react to people walking through it, car lights don't cast shadows if people are in front of it. Meh... I am enjoying the game overall though.
MasterCornholio
Member
Depends what you define as most powerful.
Some people look at paper specifications while others look at actual performance in games.
At the moment the XSX isn't doing a good job in showing that it's more powerful than the PS5.
Probably will change in the future but when is anyone's guess.
Handy Fake
Member
Don't get drawn in by him, he just wants attention. If it's not this, it's scrawling on the walls with Crayola or bed wetting.
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It´s not possible compare the performance with games with old engines. It doesn´t make sense becuase It doesn´t take advantage of the new features of these new consoles. Also the diference between both is almost non-existent. Most people is declared one console as a winner when the war didn´t start yet.
MasterCornholio
Member
And that can remain true for the rest of the generation. So it is indeed possible that it's impossible to declare either one as being the most powerful system. Multiplat comparisons can just boil down to whatever advantage each system has over the other. So essentially no Pro Vs X this time around.
If either one was vastly more powerful than the other than the differences would be visible by now. Kind of like how they were at the beginning of last gen or the gen before.
Even if you explain to people that PS5 is better for straight forward rendering pipelines because of the pixel & triangle output being higher they will just ignore you & just point at the Xbox Series X compute advantage lol.
The results are exactly as I said they would be & it will always depend on how the games are made but what we do know is that the common way that games are being made they run into Xbox Series X limits a little more than they hit PS5 limits right now.
I actually thought Xbox Series X was going to handle heavy effects better than PS5 but it seem to be a bandwidth bottleneck & they seem to be cutting effects to get around it.
True and really I´m no expect a huge difference in the future maybe a little but nothing in special. Anyway is unfair how some people are complaining against microsoft telling that they lied when it´s not true. Xbox has 12tflops but another thing is that the developers take advantage of this or not.
MasterCornholio
Member
I know there will be situations where the XSXs compute advantage will give it the better version of a game. However it seems like it's going to take developers some time to extract all that power from those CUs. With the PS5 it's an easy task to achieve from the start while it's more difficult on the XSX.
I've seen some predict that developers will give us results soon but I have my doubts shout that. It could take years for developers to learn how to feed those additional CUs. Much like it took some developers a long time to get used to the PS3s hardware.
It's true that Microsoft isn't lying. However they said the XSX is the most powerful system so people expect the best version of multiplats on it from launch. Plus some people's expectations were set really high due to all those youtubers (example Dealer) not analyzing the system beyond it's TF count.
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Well the pixel rate is higher in PS5 but the texture rate is lower because PS5 has less CU, so really it´s not exactly like you are saying. About the badwitch really its higher in Xbox Series X in the first 10gb that it´s quite enough for textures, etc.
In the past in the games was most important pixel rate but not now with the new techniques and quite less with RT. With RT the key is more CU. Also don´t forget about the new features of full RNDA 2.0 that Xbox has and PS5 in theory doesn´t have fully.
Anyway I think that maybe the Microsoft engineers and Amd engineers thought in all of this before us, mostly because they are experts on that sector.
So, not now but in the future we will see if really they had a good reason to desing Xbox in that way
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Actually because of PS5 I/O bandwidth it end up being able to feed higher quality assets into RAM at any given time so it also has the texture advantage but you keep counting them CUs lol
MasterCornholio
Member
There's also the theory that the PS5 doesn't need the full feature set due to Sony having their own API with similar features.
Pretty sure Sony engineers also worked with AMD engineers to design the system based on the goals that they had for it.
Well I don´t know if you are engineer and If you have experience in desing of cpu/gpu to say that but I´m computer engineer but i don´t have enough knowledge and experience on this to talk in deep about it.
Dave_at_Home
Member
You bring up a good point. All this talk of which consoles have the best RT and they're only able to do the basic ray tracing elements. This ray tracing shit is expensive as fuck. Granted I'm sure first-party will do some more special stuff with it but still. If anyone in here is really hard up on ray tracing, than I suggest building a solid gaming PC in the future. I'm waiting for what Nvidia's Hopper design brings.
API is only software, to have this it should be inside the chip. I don´t be sure if AMD would redesing his chip only for a PS5. It wouln´t be easy so I dont think that really PS5 has those features and mostly because this techonlogy ended in the middle of 2020.
Rea
Member
Bro, having more CUs on Xbox has nothing to do with development time in ps3 hardware. The reason why ps3 is difficult to master is because it has Cell as CPU, it's painful for developers to program, Xbox and ps5 both use same zen2 base CPU and x86 architecture. Having more CUs won't make developers harder to learn. If that were the case why high end PC graphic cards tha has even more CUs than Xbox and playstation, outperform consoles for many years. Having CUs doesn't mean harder to develop. In fact, its easier to brute force.
Neo Blaster
Member
Man, either you have no clue at all or you pretend to, don't know which is worse. 'Best way to play'? Although Ubisoft screwed really bad this update on PS5, rest assured there are others incoming to fix it. Meanwhile, all you have to do is to avoid installing it and PS5 performance will remain better.Boasting?
I'm pointing out your sheer hypocrisy, that the frame rate tanking and tearing isn't an issue because you don't own the game
Maybe if they dropped the resolution PS5 could match the Series X frame rate, or Sony could actually deliver VRR.
Until then the Series X is now the best way to play this game on console.
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Elog
Member
If you are interested in hardware you cannot write what you just wrote. That is marketing BS from MS.
Sony choose not to use VRS and mesh shaders after feedback from their gaming studios. They wanted more control over the geometry than what the AMD off-the-shelf solutions could offer. This resulted in the updated geometry engine that you have in the PS5 that instead drive variable rates of shading as well as culling of the geometry etc.
The PS5 does not lack anything which that 'full RDNA2' tagline implies. Is it a better solution than what AMD could offer off-the-shelf? Who knows - but one thing we should all have learned over the last generation as well as the beginning of this one: Cerny is bloody good at designing consoles so my bet is that the Sony customised solution has some serious advantages.
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Elog
Member
MS had design lock on the APU slightly earlier than Sony...they did not wait for anything in terms of APU hardware compared to Sony.
Are you sure 100% that PS5 has the same features or similar than a full RNDA 2.0? Will you sign something like that?
Cerny is a great designer but there are many great designers around the world and mostly in a company like Microsoft. Don´t make a Mith with Cerny, he is not Einstein, he is only another great designer.
Well, Phil Spencer said in The Verge that they had to wait till get the full RDNA 2.0 and it´s one the things why they started the production later than Sony. It explains the low stock on Xbox Series X.
"MS had design lock on the APU slightly earlier than Sony...they did not wait for anything in terms of APU hardware compared to Sony"
How do you know it? Do you have an internal contact in Microsoft or it is a hearsay from any press?
Elog
Member
The simple answer is yes.
Mesh shaders is a function to cull geometry and optimise the use of the primitive shaders. In the PS5 geometry culling is done at the geometry engine level as well as how you want to apply your primitive shader function.
VRS is a function to vary the amount of shader work the software will conduct depending on how visible a given piece of the geometry is (e.g. less work is done on something far away etc). The GE in the PS5 can create priorities for the geometry depending on location in the visible field and then you can apply shader work as a function of those priorities, i.e. you vary the rate of shading work that is conducted.
There is nothing missing in the PS5. The question is if it is more efficient to drive all that work from the GE instead of downstream of it.
Based on the grape wine AMD has at a minimum taken a very close look at the PS5 customised GE to potentially incorporate it in future AMD GPUs (hence the RDNA3 rumour). We will see if that is the case but AMD was clearly impressed by the work they did in collaboration with Sony and Cerny on this piece of the hardware.
Elog
Member
I do not know why MS waited to scale up manufacturing. Sony might have been faster at locking up capacity at TMSC. That is speculation from my side though - I do not know.
What I do know is that the APU ID entered the databases earlier for MS than for Sony. That happens at design lock.
And it seems the DirectX API for the new RDNA2 features was a bit late. Maybe there is a developer here that can comment on that? That is the impression I get when reading about the developing kit on the PC/Xbox side. That is software though and not the hardware.
Rea
Member
Stop saying Full Rdna2 crap that Microsoft is bullshitting. Xbox supports Microsoft's own Dx12U, is not surprising. Nvidia Rtx 3000 cards also supports Dx12U, so series X also has full Ampere architecture?
Ps5 doesn't supports DX12 but it's has it's own customisations in Geometry Engine which performs the same or even better.
I know what is mesh shaders and those other things but how do you know all of this? What is your source, press or do you have any internal contact working there? It amazes me that you speak so dogmatically. I don't think even Sony's chief designer himself would find it that way.
And also even you know that Microsoft designed earlier his APU. It´s so impressive.
I some know people working in Seattle in Microsoft and they didn´t know it.
Do you also work in Microsoft to say this? Would you say officially that under your name and your sign?Stop saying Full Rdna2 crap that Microsoft is bullshitting. Xbox supports Microsoft's own Dx12U, is not surprising. Nvidia Rtx 3000 cards also supports Dx12U, so series X also has full Ampere architecture?
Ps5 doesn't supports DX12 but it's has it's own customisations in Geometry Engine which performs the same or even better.
Rea
Member
I don't have to work in Microsoft to say this. If you do watch Cerny road to ps5, do abit of research and avoid listening to Microsoft bullshit marketing and have a common sense, then you will understand what I'm saying. That's all there is to it.
Well I´m not an expert on this, but I´m a manager in a manufacturer company of computers with 1 degree in computer science and two masters maybe i don´t have much common sense but I know a little bit about computers.
I understand that you are an expert because you watched the Cerny road to ps5... So, did you check also the Microsoft design in for example hot chips 2020? Did you understand the strategy of Microsoft, I don´t be sure if I understood this, so could you explain to me the differences between MS strategy and Sony Strategy in their desings?
3liteDragon
Member
I mean, having more CUs doesn't instantly mean it's "harder" to write code for. It's whether or not the developer wants to optimize their code for more parallel processing, when it comes to PC GPU's, the cards you see with more CUs are usually the ones designed with "pro" work in mind (software SPECIFICALLY designed with lots of parallelism in mind are what's really gonna take advantage of a card with like 60 CUs, games not so much if they're not programmed that way). MS even referred to their CPU cores as "server-class CPU cores", Series X's APU is gonna be used for their cloud servers to run four Xbox One S sessions in parallel, you can tell why they chose to go with more CUs from the beginning. Both companies have different priorities here.
I'm not sure why you're telling me that you are a engineer but common sense is all you need to have to know that streaming data in as you go will get higher quality assets than loading a big part of the level in way ahead of time.
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I mean, having more CUs doesn't instantly mean it's "harder" to write code for. It's whether or not the developer wants to optimize their code for more parallel processing, when it comes to PC GPU's, the cards you see with more CUs are usually the ones designed with "pro" work in mind (software SPECIFICALLY designed with lots of parallelism in mind are what's really gonna take advantage of a card with like 60 CUs, games not so much if they're not programmed that way). MS even referred to their CPU cores as "server-class CPU cores", Series X's APU is gonna be used for their cloud servers to run four Xbox One S sessions in parallel, you can tell why they chose to go with more CUs from the beginning. Both companies have different priorities here.
Yes, I agree with you and it makes sense for me. Very good explanation.
What about the performance, do you also think that PS5 is more powerful than Xbox SX?
Well, in my opinion, the problem is to know how a system works you need to know in deep the system. Talk about a system only with a few details without a fully understanding of the desing is not very smart. Think that you are questioning the work of many engineers from Microsoft and AMD.
Imagine that I start to talk about the Covid-19, i can say many things about it because I read press, twitter, talk with doctors etc, but really I can´t affirm strongly nothing about the virus because I´m not a doctor. Even being a doctor I can make mistakes in my affirmations.
3liteDragon
Member
I think both consoles are gonna be mostly neck and neck when it comes to third-party games, both of these consoles have their own customizations. But I think if you're looking for the biggest differences between the architectures of these consoles, you're probably gonna end up seeing it in first-party games, that's where the PS5 and Series X will shine the most since the hardware's being pushed to it's limits. This gen's gonna be more interesting than the last one with MS's first-party studios growing as well, I'm interested to see the games we're gonna be getting from studios like Ninja Theory and The Initiative (remember, Xbox also has access to the id Tech engine as well now, so my expectations are pretty high).
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Where did I question the work of Microsoft & AMD? Xbox Series X is exactly what MS said it would be but most of you ignore some of the things they told us like when they say it's 4 - 6 X the raw GPU power of the Xbox One.
You sound crazy with this "you are questioning the work of many engineers from Microsoft and AMD" the hell are you talking about I know the specs of the consoles engineers are at every company & guess what they all can't make the best devices
You are questioning the work of many engineers from Microsoft and AMD lol
lol
lol
lol
boy if you don't get out of here with this foolishness lol
Yes, I agree with you. I have both consoles and are beasts. I think will be a big parity in this generation, even more than in the time of ps3 and X360.
Dave_at_Home
Member
The proof is in the pudding sort of speak. I'll give you two examples of Microsoft stretching the truth. All you have to do is look at desktop big Navi. Two features stick out right away (could be more but these are the ones that stick out).
- Fine grain clock gating (Series X/S are fixed clocks)
- Infinity Cache
Elog
Member
I believe you are mocking me
However, if you do not believe me just google Komachi for mined benchmarks of engineering and qualification samples of the XSX chip as well as APISAK for engineering and qualification samples of the PS5 chip. You can see that all the benchmarks are from Q2 2019 i.e. the same time - and you do not change fundamental design at that point. Tweaking logic that is faulty? Yes. Tweaking frequencies? Yes. Adding hardware features? No.
The idea that MS 'waited' for something is simply not correct. They started manufacturing scale-up later for some reason and the DirectX APIs seemed to be late (later than planned?) for the RDNA2 features.
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I'm just saying that you state things too confidently without having first-hand information. You cannot judge the design of a system by what you read in the press, the forums or a video.
I see a lot of people talking about GPU or CPU designs with no prior training on it other than Google and the press.
In order to judge whether one system is better than another, I try to study them in depth in order to get an idea of which one can work better, and yet I am often wrong.
I'm just saying don't question whether one design is better than another if you don't have the knowledge to do it. In this case give your opinion and nothing else but do not affirm strongly.
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I believe you are mocking me
However, if you do not believe me just google Komachi for mined benchmarks of engineering and qualification samples of the XSX chip as well as APISAK for engineering and qualification samples of the PS5 chip. You can see that all the benchmarks are from Q2 2019 i.e. the same time - and you do not change fundamental design at that point. Tweaking logic that is faulty? Yes. Tweaking frequencies? Yes. Adding hardware features? No.
The idea that MS 'waited' for something is simply not correct. They started manufacturing scale-up later for some reason and the DirectX APIs seemed to be late (later than planned?) for the RDNA2 features.
So, you say phil spencer is lying
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
Dude of course he's lying.
Still talking crazy & pigheadedly & it's useless I knew what the results was going to be while foolish people ran around only saying 12 > 10 now look at everyone lost & confused making up excuses for why PS5 is doing better in most cases than Xbox Series X.
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By the moment the difference between both consoles in games is absolutely ridiculous, practically nothing, except in Dirt Rally but they are working to fix the bug in SX. What is crazy is to think that there really is a difference. it gets to the point of obsession.
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kyliethicc
Member
Suits lie often
Well, it´s your opinion. I work in that world and I don´t think the same than you. Mostly because a big lie can damage your career in a company. Usually the press lies more than the companies, manipulating things what a company says.
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You seem to be blinded by your own ignorance why are you saying that it's just a small difference & so when it was people saying that it would be a big difference in Xbox Series X favor?
Elog
Member
I am saying that his comment makes zero sense. The hardware in AMDs RDNA2 cards was locked in 2019.
Sony's earliest manufacturing date for PS5 is in May 2020. For Xbox Series X the earliest manufacturing date is September 2020.
Whatever caused those 4 extra months it had nothing to do with design lock of the APU. When manufacturing started the designs had been locked for a long time. Could they have encountered a late logic error that needed fixing? Possibly. Could they have had supply issues (of any kind of one of the components)? Possibly. Could they have had a late slot at TMSC etc? Possibly. Did they do a late complete revision of the APU by adding new features etc? No way in hell.
What people? people from forums? Microsoft people? who? I didn´t say that never and I never thought that. Mostly because even between the last generation and this generation won´t be a huge difference.
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