Support NeoGAF

[pratyush]

TLDR: Sony have booked the 5nm node from TSMC as well as meeting with the AMD custom solutions team for sometime in 2023 which likely means they will be releasing a PS5 slim (based on speculation) in that year, which means they could cut down on power consumption and especially the size.

Also the power jump from 7nm to 5nm is not enough to warrant a design for a "PS5 Pro"

Nothing to crazy, seem's very plausible considering Sony's behaviour in the past.

Bunch of nonsense. We had more than 20% jump in PPA after moving from 7nm to 5nm. Also if PS5 slim or whatever is coming and it's not the next iteration then it will stay on the same process node. It's not that easy to just shift to new node like these Youtubers think. There are lot of factors involved which makes it not worthwhile for a company which already has the same design up and running at 7nm. If it moves to 5nm then it will be new design or atleast next iteration with incremental performance gain

 

[FrankWza]

Bethesda was valued at 3.5billion USD. MS bought it for $7bn.

My point is the good engineers would absolutely already have been able to work for MS if they wished. Development is a small
Industry - everyone knows who the key guys are.

The only way MS will keep those Bethesda talents are to treat them like Mojang - leave them alone to develop the games they want for the platforms they want in the corporate culture they want.

Let’s see what MS do ...

Another good point. We’ll see. But if they purchased all these IPs and were not able to secure the talent alongside them it would be one of the biggest blunders in video game history.

 

[kyliethicc]

Bunch of nonsense. We had more than 20% jump in PPA after moving from 7nm to 5nm. Also if PS5 slim or whatever is coming and it's not the next iteration then it will stay on the same process node. It's not that easy to just shift to new node like these Youtubers think. There are lot of factors involved which makes it not worthwhile for a company which already has the same design up and running at 7nm. If it moves to 5nm then it will be new design or atleast next iteration with incremental performance gain

PS4 (2013) is on TSMC 28 nm.
PS4 slim (2016) is on TSMC 16 nm.
PS5 (2020) is on TSMC 7 nm.
PS5 slim (2023) will be on TSMC 5 nm.

Makes sense. They gotta drop power consumption to shrink the console.

 

[LiquidRex]

Bethesda was valued at 3.5billion USD. MS bought it for $7bn.

My point is the good engineers would absolutely already have been able to work for MS if they wished. Development is a small Industry - everyone knows who the key guys are.

The only way MS will keep those Bethesda talents are to treat them like Mojang - leave them alone to develop the games they want for the platforms they want in the corporate culture they want.

Let’s see what MS do ...

Yep leave them alone just how EA should have left Bioware alone.

 

[LiquidRex]

 

[SportsFan581]

Bunch of nonsense. We had more than 20% jump in PPA after moving from 7nm to 5nm. Also if PS5 slim or whatever is coming and it's not the next iteration then it will stay on the same process node. It's not that easy to just shift to new node like these Youtubers think. There are lot of factors involved which makes it not worthwhile for a company which already has the same design up and running at 7nm. If it moves to 5nm then it will be new design or atleast next iteration with incremental performance gain

You not familiar with any of the major PS360 revisions? Or the PS4 slim and 1S? Die shrinks are generally considered automatic for long-term use chips. The shrink makes them use less power, saving money on cooling and power delivery (along with savings associated with a smaller system size) even if the price per transistor doesn't move down as much as in the past. I definitely think we will see die shrinks from both along with models with smaller footprints. The question is whether or not we see meaningful price reductions and how long that takes.

 

[pratyush]

PS4 (2013) is on TSMC 28 nm.
PS4 slim (2016) is on TSMC 16 nm.
PS5 (2020) is on TSMC 7 nm.
PS5 slim (2023) will be on TSMC 5 nm.

Makes sense. They gotta drop power consumption to shrink the console.

Wasn't aware that slim was on later node but 7nm to 5nm isn't such an easy jump as 28nm to 16nm was. Still don't think 7nm to 5nm would be done so soon. It's still a relatively new process node

 

[pratyush]

You not familiar with any of the major PS360 revisions? Or the PS4 slim and 1S? Die shrinks are generally considered automatic for long-term use chips. The shrink makes them use less power, saving money on cooling and power delivery (along with savings associated with a smaller system size) even if the price per transistor doesn't move down as much as in the past. I definitely think we will see die shrinks from both along with models with smaller footprints. The question is whether or not we see meaningful price reductions and how long that takes.

I am not aware of PS4 and PS3 revisions but node upgradation have halted in last few years and earlier moving down wasn't such a big issue especially when we were in 20 nm range. These days slight increment can cause huge power domain reliability issue and might need re implementation at Physical level which isn't straight forward for such a big SOC. Also 7nm is still relatively new node for TSMC. Don't think Slim would be moving to 5nm but it's just my opinion. Also the incremental gain is quite large to ignore. Plus the availability for 5nm is low due to yield. So it does not look likely

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Wasn't aware that slim was on later node but 7nm to 5nm isn't such an easy jump as 28nm to 16nm was. Still don't think 7nm to 5nm would be done so soon. It's still a relatively new process node

AMD will have mainstream 5nm chips in 2022. The PS5 slim will definitley be on it

 

[kyliethicc]

Wasn't aware that slim was on later node but 7nm to 5nm isn't such an easy jump as 28nm to 16nm was. Still don't think 7nm to 5nm would be done so soon. It's still a relatively new process node

In 2013, TSMC began producing chips on their 16 nm node. Sony used it in 2016 for PS4 slim. 3 years.
In 2020, TSMC began producing chips on their 5 nm node. Sony could use it in 2023 for PS5 slim. Same 3 years.

The 2019 Switch revision and Switch Lite used a die shrink.
The 2016 PS4 revisions used a die shrink. Same with Xbox.

Die shrink is pretty standard. It just might not lower cost much tho, compared to older shrinks.

 

[TheRedRiders]

In 2013, TSMC began producing chips on their 16 nm node. Sony used it in 2016 for PS4 slim. 3 years.
In 2020, TSMC began producing chips on their 5 nm node. Sony could use it in 2023 for PS5 slim. Same 3 years.

The 2019 Switch revision and Switch Lite used a die shrink.
The 2016 PS4 revisions used a die shrink. Same with Xbox.

Die shrink is pretty standard. It just might not lower cost much tho, compared to older shrinks.

I'm a sucker for the slim versions regardless of the price. But my guess is you like them thicc

 

[Mirtaumn]

So if Sony buys a developer and the games made are only available for PlayStation that is pro consumer but if MS buys a developer and puts games on multiple platforms it is anti consumer? Business is business but clearly MS isn't forcing anyone to buy their systems. They are the only platform giving gamers that option, like it or not.

This is absolutely the stupidest take I've ever heard in my entire life.

First and foremost not everyone has a PC to play those games also not every game is present on XCloud, which is a service you still have to pay. They're still forcing people onto their ecosystem regardless if you're paying $570 dollars total to own everything or $20 dollars a month to only rent the service.

Also how are you ignoring the fact that Sony acquisitions have never taken anything away from Xbox? Almost every now first party studios only developed for PlayStation or only had a few instances of developing multi-plat games. (I mean yeah you could make a case about Sunset, but MS had been sitting on that IP for ages and never really did anything with it. Hopefully Sony can pick it up and actually do something great with it)

Sony acquired Insomniac in 2019, a studio that already primarily developed for PS, after launching a game that was from start developed and funded by Sony.

MS acquired Bethesda and all it's subsidiaries in 2021, a studio that developed multi-plat games and some timed exclusives.
It's not even the same thing.

Games that are being developed by Bethesda like Starfield, TES 6 etc... were being developed as multi-plat games. So if MS's acquisition blocks those games from coming out on PS then it is an anti-consumer practice (at least in the sense as you guys like to call it when it's PS doing it).

Also don't try to bring up timed exclusives as if it's proof that Sony is the only anti-consumer company here. MS also does it all the time and I've never seen any of you complain about it. I mean Rise of the Tomb Raider was also timed exclusive for MS, but no Sony is the anti-consumer backwards thinking company and MS is here to save all gamers from bad Sony and Nintendo.

Nobody here is saying that MS is bad for acquiring Bethesda, just that you guys don't really have a case anymore about Sony being anti-consumer when MS buys an entire publisher to artificially grow their library and potentially block other players.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

Xbox Series X/S and Xbox One Are Getting an Upgraded Browser That Can Play Google Stadia

Xbox Series X/S and Xbox One consoles will soon be getting a new upgraded Microsoft Edge Chromium-powered browser that is capable of playing Google Stadia.

As reported The Verge, testers in Xbox's Alpha Skip-Ahead group can now access this new version of Edge, and while it still doesn't have full mouse and keyboard support and is a bit buggy, it appears much better than the current solution.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2021/03...-upgraded-browser-that-can-play-google-stadia

Microsoft starts testing Edge Chromium browser on Xbox

Support for the legacy version of Edge is ending soon

www.theverge.com

And just like that Stadia is back in business. NOT!

 

[M1chl]

I still don't understand who would drop cash on service which probably not going to exists in near future....

 

[azertydu91]

I still don't understand who would drop cash on service which probably not going to exists in near future....

Do they have new buyers though ? I can understand the people waiting until their sub ends, but right now stadia feels like the Ouya.

 

[M1chl]

Do they have new buyers though ? I can understand the people waiting until their sub ends, but right now stadia feels like the Ouya.

Well I don't know, but people were buying Cyberpunk there because it actually ran...however paying motnhly fee + games is some massive retard idea, which in the age of GamePass and PS Now is completely obsolete...

 

[azertydu91]

Well I don't know, but people were buying Cyberpunk there because it actually ran...however paying motnhly fee + games is some massive retard idea, which in the age of GamePass and PS Now is completely obsolete...

Exactly, and I would blame Phil Harrison whom at this point seems like the curse of every company he has ever been involved with.

 

[Hashi]

Betseda owns idTech7 engine created for Vulcan API (multiplatform).
Rest of Microsoft moves are totally "I do care". Personally I never like games like Doom, Skyrim etc.

 

[martino]

This is absolutely the stupidest take I've ever heard in my entire life.

First and foremost not everyone has a PC to play those games also not every game is present on XCloud, which is a service you still have to pay. They're still forcing people onto their ecosystem regardless if you're paying $570 dollars total to own everything or $20 dollars a month to only rent the service.

Also how are you ignoring the fact that Sony acquisitions have never taken anything away from Xbox? Almost every now first party studios only developed for PlayStation or only had a few instances of developing multi-plat games. (I mean yeah you could make a case about Sunset, but MS had been sitting on that IP for ages and never really did anything with it. Hopefully Sony can pick it up and actually do something great with it)

Sony acquired Insomniac in 2019, a studio that already primarily developed for PS, after launching a game that was from start developed and funded by Sony.

MS acquired Bethesda and all it's subsidiaries in 2021, a studio that developed multi-plat games and some timed exclusives.
It's not even the same thing.

Games that are being developed by Bethesda like Starfield, TES 6 etc... were being developed as multi-plat games. So if MS's acquisition blocks those games from coming out on PS then it is an anti-consumer practice (at least in the sense as you guys like to call it when it's PS doing it).

Also don't try to bring up timed exclusives as if it's proof that Sony is the only anti-consumer company here. MS also does it all the time and I've never seen any of you complain about it. I mean Rise of the Tomb Raider was also timed exclusive for MS, but no Sony is the anti-consumer backwards thinking company and MS is here to save all gamers from bad Sony and Nintendo.

Nobody here is saying that MS is bad for acquiring Bethesda, just that you guys don't really have a case anymore about Sony being anti-consumer when MS buys an entire publisher to artificially grow their library and potentially block other players.

A third party working for exclusive on one platform is workforce lock and not working for competition whatever the way you lock it.
That's how not people should look at it without "fan"' nitpicking and excuses.
Sony since its birth are expert at locking promising studio content and starving competition the cheap way....MS has done it too then strangely stopped it and from an unfavorable position decided to go the next step (probably because they couldn't compete the other way)
And imo it feels more it's ps practice backfiring at them because ms is no sega.

edit: nintendo do it too , rest assured.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Wasn't aware that slim was on later node but 7nm to 5nm isn't such an easy jump as 28nm to 16nm was. Still don't think 7nm to 5nm would be done so soon. It's still a relatively new process node

you have no idea what you're talking about, honestly

 

[Mirtaumn]

A third party working for exclusive on one platform is workforce lock and not working for competition whatever the way you lock it.

A third party that primarily develops for PS only, also Sony isn't forcing them to it. They can choose to develop for other platforms.

Also MS didn't stop lmao, Crossfire X is being developed as an Xbox exclusive by Remedy.
Microsoft Flight Simulator being partially developed by Asobo and other studios.

MS has done it and still continues to do it.

But yeah you're right, it's only a problem when Sony does it. MS is doing it for us gamers unlike anti-consumer Sony.

Note how I did not mention S.T.A.L.K.E.R 2, Ori and Scorn since the developers have been primarily developing for Xbox and Windows platforms .

 

[reksveks]

A third party that primarily develops for PS only, also Sony isn't forcing them to it. They can choose to develop for other platforms.

Also MS didn't stop lmao, Crossfire X is being developed as an Xbox exclusive by Remedy.
Microsoft Flight Simulator being partially developed by Asobo and other studios.

MS has done it and still continues to do it.

But yeah you're right, it's only a problem when Sony does it. MS is doing it for us gamers unlike anti-consumer Sony.

Note how I did not mention S.T.A.L.K.E.R 2 and Ori since the developers have been primarily developing for Xbox and Windows platforms .

Just fixing the point about CrossfireX, Remedy is only doing the campaign, the rest of the game is already made and being updated by the original devs.

 

[martino]

A third party that primarily develops for PS only, also Sony isn't forcing them to it. They can choose to develop for other platforms.

Also MS didn't stop lmao, Crossfire X is being developed as an Xbox exclusive by Remedy.
Microsoft Flight Simulator being partially developed by Asobo and other studios.

MS has done it and still continues to do it.

But yeah you're right, it's only a problem when Sony does it. MS is doing it for us gamers unlike anti-consumer Sony.

Note how I did not mention S.T.A.L.K.E.R 2 and Ori since the developers have been primarily developing for Xbox and Windows platforms .

My objective was not to be precise , and it tells you i don't follow MS that much.
Thanks for the victim narrative and putting word in my mouth. I never said it was a problem only when Sony does it.
Try to retain the important information here to no move elsewhere : locking resources is locking resources...
All excuses to makes one way to do it acceptable "because" (i like the brand in the end more than something really tangible and objective in the end) can't change that fact no matter the side.(hope you will see i talk in general this time, this parenthesis should help too)

 

[Mirtaumn]

My objective was not to be precise , and it tells you i don't follow MS that much.
Thanks for the victim narrative and putting word in my mouth. I never said it was a problem only when Sony does it.
Try to retain the important information here to no move elsewhere : locking resources is locking resources...
All excuses to makes one way to do it acceptable "because" (i like the brand in the end more than something really tangible and objective in the end) can't change that fact no matter the side.(hope you will see i talk in general this time, this parenthesis should help too)

You seem to take more problems with what Sony does.
Fair enough I might've overreacted a bit.

But again it's not about who is doing it.
The developer is the one who chooses what platforms they want to develop to. If Moon Light Studios want to develop Ori only for Xbox then I'm fine with.
Actually Moon Light Studios would be a great acquisition from MS. You know a studio that already works closely to them, instead of going after studios and IPs that have been famously developed for other platforms.

There is an acceptable way of doing these kind of things and my opinion isn't blurred just because I prefer Sony.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

TLDR: Sony have booked the 5nm node from TSMC as well as meeting with the AMD custom solutions team for sometime in 2023 which likely means they will be releasing a PS5 slim (based on speculation) in that year, which means they could cut down on power consumption and especially the size.

Also the power jump from 7nm to 5nm is not enough to warrant a design for a "PS5 Pro"

Nothing to crazy, seem's very plausible considering Sony's behaviour in the past.

I'm pretty sure much of this is gonna turn out false.

TSMC's 5nm process node is based on EUV lithography. The 7nm N7P node both PS5 and XSX is still SUV lithography and so the process technologies are totally incompatible.

For Sony to move the PS5 design to the 5nm node it would mean a significant redesign of the chip for the new process technology, as opposed to being able to retain all the libraries and simply port the design to the smaller node.

I can't see the economics of it working out in favour of a PS5 Slim, when the density increase isn't likely to yield a sufficiently smaller chip to offset the increase in process cost of the 5nm node (due to EUV combined with a greater number of process steps) as well as the up front cost of designing for 5nm.

It's extremely unlikely. Even AMD is/was planning to stay on 7nm for a very long time with its desktop parts; eventually moving to 7nm EUV before 5nm becomes mature enough to scale for volume production of large die, high performance parts (and that's if it ever becomes cost effective for the economics to make sense).

 

[martino]

You seem to take more problems with what Sony does.
Fair enough I might've overreacted a bit.

But again it's not about who is doing it.
The developer is the one who chooses what platforms they want to develop to. If Moon Light Studios want to develop Ori only for Xbox then I'm fine with.
Actually Moon Light Studios would be a great acquisition from MS. You know a studio that already works closely to them, instead of going after studios and IPs that have been famously developed for other platforms.

There is an acceptable way of doing these kind of things and my opinion isn't blurred just because I prefer Sony.

Morale is not absolute and we will never agree here
Mine is simple exlcusive is a nono and when exclusive enter the equation the more platform you can access the content on, the better.
And in an ideal world it would not be because MS is arround most of them ....
but sony seems to slowly get there so the worst evil will be nintendo for me in the end.

 

[mejin]

This is dumb and you should feel bad.

What if it is his normal?

 

[Neo Blaster]

Grain of salt.

He's come to a point where he's just shooting at everywhere hoping for something to stick.

 

[Rob_27]

So we saying if sony bought Bethesda and didn't release the games on xbox it would be OK.

 

[SSfox]

So we saying if sony bought Bethesda and didn't release the games on xbox it would be OK.

If Sony have bought Beth the studio will definitely become a better game dev, but with MS who knows, hopefully it won't be as bad as Rare case in the worst case i guess.

 

[ksdixon]

So we saying if sony bought Bethesda and didn't release the games on xbox it would be OK.

If they pushed the shit out of PS5 features like dualsense or fast loading, sure? Isn't the point of exclusives to help sell your system?

Edit - same applies for XB exclusivity, whatever exclusive features XB offers.

 

[3liteDragon]

PS4 (2013) is on TSMC 28 nm.
PS4 slim (2016) is on TSMC 16 nm.
PS5 (2020) is on TSMC 7 nm.
PS5 slim (2023) will be on TSMC 5 nm.

Makes sense. They gotta drop power consumption to shrink the console.

Is the transistor count the same for PS4 and PS4 Slim? Cause shrinking the transistors only to add more of them within the same die space would show performance differences in games between both consoles favouring the Slim version.

If they keep the transistor count the exact same as the original PS5 (2020), then power consumption would drop quite a bit on the 5 nm process.

 

[ErRor88]

Jason Ronald on ML in Series X. Also, I believe when he says "it's beyond". He's referring to Direct ML being used for AI, Super-resolution, and other things.



Full interview:

 

[Bryank75]

If anyone wants a Series S or X in Ireland, they are easily available in Argos at the moment. No reservations, have to go to store.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Jason Ronald on ML in Series X. Also, I believe when he says "it's beyond". He's referring to Direct ML being used for AI, Super-resolution, and other things.



Full interview:

Temper your expectations folks.

 

[kyliethicc]

Is the transistor count the same for PS4 and PS4 Slim? Cause shrinking the transistors only to add more of them within the same die space would show performance differences in games between both consoles favouring the Slim version.

If they keep the transistor count the exact same as the original PS5 (2020), then power consumption would drop quite a bit on the 5 nm process.

I think so? I just know they shrunk it to reduce power. Spec wise its identical.

"The "PS4 slim" (official CUH-2000 series) released in Sep 2016 reduced the rating of the power supply to 165W;[81] according to Tweaktown the reduction in power requirements was due to the main APU being made at a 16 nm scale, down from 28 nm.[82] Sony claimed power use reductions of 28% compared to the CUH-1200 series, and 34% compared to the original CUH-1000 series."

PlayStation 4 technical specifications - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PS4 has 250 W PSU, draws ~ 150 W max gaming.
PS4 Slim has 165 W PSU, draws ~ 100 W max gaming. (~ 33% less power)
PS5 has 350 W PSU, draws ~ 210 W max gaming.

I've seen 5nm vs 7nm can drop power by 20-25%, so...
PS5 Slim could have ~ 275 W PSU, draw ~ 160 W max gaming? roughly.

It would shrink the necessary size of the heatsink, power supply, and fan. Smaller box, less material needed to make each console. Lowers cost. Simplify the design and refresh the look. Some customers would find the smaller more efficient console more appealing, could increase sales. Probably allow for a price cut, except if going to 5nm adds too much to the build cost. Maybe it'll stay at 825 GB and get price cut, or increase to 1.65 TB SSD model and stay at same prices as now, idk.

 

[Loxus]

Jason Ronald on ML in Series X. Also, I believe when he says "it's beyond". He's referring to Direct ML being used for AI, Super-resolution, and other things.



Full interview:

So Machine Learning is the new "Power of the Cloud" thing?

 

[ErRor88]

So Machine Learning is the new "Power of the Cloud" thing?

Short answer... NO. It's better and will be actually realized. Be it from Nvidia, AMD, Microsoft, and Sony.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I am not aware of PS4 and PS3 revisions but node upgradation have halted in last few years and earlier moving down wasn't such a big issue especially when we were in 20 nm range. These days slight increment can cause huge power domain reliability issue and might need re implementation at Physical level which isn't straight forward for such a big SOC. Also 7nm is still relatively new node for TSMC. Don't think Slim would be moving to 5nm but it's just my opinion. Also the incremental gain is quite large to ignore. Plus the availability for 5nm is low due to yield. So it does not look likely

PS5 can likely not be significantly shrunk in size without some form of node improvement.

One of the reasons node improvements were slowed down was because EUV was significantly delayed and they had to use lots of tricks to keep getting smaller with the preEUV tech. But EUV is now online, and bound to improve over time.

I can't see the economics of it working out in favour of a PS5 Slim, when the density increase isn't likely to yield a sufficiently smaller chip to offset the increase in process cost of the 5nm node (due to EUV combined with a greater number of process steps) as well as the up front cost of designing for 5nm.

? You sure, from what I've heard EUV uses significantly lower number of steps. We had been pushing traditional lithography with multiple additional steps to try and create smaller features than the wavelength allowed using various tricks. This had been raising the cost of production as all the additional steps were slowing production, iirc. But from what I've heard EUV should result in lower costs.

Advantages of EUVL are high throughput, wide process windows and extendibility to future nodes. It uses a smaller wavelength which leads to more densely packed components on the microchip, creating faster processing power. Hence, faster computer processors can be achieved with EUVL. This technique has the potential to provide economic sustainability with its applications in nearly every field including engineering and medical fields. Another advantage of EUVL is cost-effectiveness. Reduced power consumption and a lessened number of exposures make the EUVL more cost-effective in most patterning processes. Disadvantages of this lithography technique are higher startup costs, complexity, reliability and relative infrastructure immaturity..

Promising Lithography Techniques for Next-Generation Logic Devices - Nanomanufacturing and Metrology

Continuous rapid shrinking of feature size made the authorities to seek alternative patterning methods as the conventional photolithography comes with its intrinsic resolution limit. In this regard, some promising techniques have been proposed as next-generation lithography (NGL) that has the...

link.springer.com

Today's lithographers use many tricks to print features much smaller than were allowed by the resolution criterion developed by Lord Rayleigh in the 19th century. These tricks include optical proximity correction, improved resolution by immersing wafers in water, and enhancing resolution with multipatterning. This type of lithography, called 193 nm immersionbased multipatterning (193i MP), is becoming more difficult due to the challenges of circuit design complexity, increased cycle time, cost, and edge placement errors (EPE).

This is where EUVL comes into the picture. With a wavelength of 13.5 nm, a reduction of almost 14 times that of 193i, we now have lot more flexibility, as the Rayleigh criterion allows us to print features 14 times smaller without a host of compensating steps and techniques.

Understanding EUV Lithography: The Technology That Enables Extension of Moore’s Law

<p>There is much to learn about EUVL in the recently published SPIE Press Book, <em>EUV Lithography</em></p>

spie.org

edit:
though I've heard 7nm uses EUV and 5nm uses EUV with some additional steps. But it likely is nowhere as bad as all the steps that had to be introduced prior to EUV.

 

[darkleemar]

So Machine Learning is the new "Power of the Cloud" thing?

Just wait until you see the next Crackdown game with ML since you know, cloud computing worked out great.

 

[Great Hair]

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

One of the reasons node improvements were slowed down was because EUV was significantly delayed and they had to use lots of tricks to keep getting smaller with the preEUV tech. But EUV is now online, and bound to improve over time.

? You sure, from what I've heard EUV uses significantly lower number of steps. We had been pushing traditional lithography with multiple additional steps to try and create smaller features than the wavelength allowed using various tricks. This had been raising the cost of production as all the additional steps were slowing production, iirc. But from what I've heard EUV should result in lower costs.

Promising Lithography Techniques for Next-Generation Logic Devices - Nanomanufacturing and Metrology

Continuous rapid shrinking of feature size made the authorities to seek alternative patterning methods as the conventional photolithography comes with its intrinsic resolution limit. In this regard, some promising techniques have been proposed as next-generation lithography (NGL) that has the...

link.springer.com

Understanding EUV Lithography: The Technology That Enables Extension of Moore’s Law

<p>There is much to learn about EUVL in the recently published SPIE Press Book, <em>EUV Lithography</em></p>

spie.org

edit:
though I've heard 7nm uses EUV and 5nm uses EUV with some additional steps. But it likely is nowhere as bad as all the steps that had to be introduced prior to EUV.

I'm not 100% sure but I think there was rather a bit of difference between how EUVL was originally envisioned to work, with how it practically does in reality. Hence why Intel almost cratered their CPU business trying and failing to solve the issues with EUVL.

I'm not sure what TSMC did to solve the problems related to the pellicule material, but I think it involved adding a number of extra process steps that allow for not having to use any pellicule at all.

Don't quote me on any of this though.

 

[M1chl]

I'm pretty sure much of this is gonna turn out false.

TSMC's 5nm process node is based on EUV lithography. The 7nm N7P node both PS5 and XSX is still SUV lithography and so the process technologies are totally incompatible.

For Sony to move the PS5 design to the 5nm node it would mean a significant redesign of the chip for the new process technology, as opposed to being able to retain all the libraries and simply port the design to the smaller node.

I can't see the economics of it working out in favour of a PS5 Slim, when the density increase isn't likely to yield a sufficiently smaller chip to offset the increase in process cost of the 5nm node (due to EUV combined with a greater number of process steps) as well as the up front cost of designing for 5nm.

It's extremely unlikely. Even AMD is/was planning to stay on 7nm for a very long time with its desktop parts; eventually moving to 7nm EUV before 5nm becomes mature enough to scale for volume production of large die, high performance parts (and that's if it ever becomes cost effective for the economics to make sense).

That'very true and also going to lower node nowadays does not yield company any form of cost effective solution. Also I am not really sure what power saving you are getting to go from 7nm to 5nm. I believe that PS5 Pro makes more sense then Slim. Slim could be just a redesign of the board and chassis.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

EU approves Microsoft’s $7.5 billion Bethesda acquisition​

Microsoft will have 23 first-party game studios

The European Commission has approved Microsoft’s $7.5 billion deal to acquire ZeniMax Media, the parent company of Doom and Fallout studio Bethesda Softworks. Microsoft’s deal has been approved by the EU without conditions, as it “does not raise serious doubts as to its compatibility with the common market.”

EU approves Microsoft’s $7.5 billion Bethesda acquisition

The approval clears the way for Microsoft’s Xbox Game Pass plans.

www.theverge.com

 

[LiquidRex]

So Bethesda exclusives are a case by case basis now

 

[LiquidRex]

oh dear tweeter storm in progress.

 

[LucasBR]

So Bethesda exclusives are a case by case basis now

I think they always said that, no?

 

[mejin]

So Bethesda exclusives are a case by case basis now

All will be exclusive cause Spencer listens to xbox community. Believe in him.

 

[Garani]

oh dear tweeter storm in progress.

They wanted the storm: it's called marketing:



The point is actually quite serious: Chefs are pretty much only males, but a woman can be a great chef just as much as a man.

 

[Garani]

All will be exclusive cause Spencer listens to xbox community. Believe in him.

Was there ever any doubt?