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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Garani

Member
I don't ever use personal attacks because I don't believe they add anything to a discussion. I can understand when a debate gets extremely heated people might resort to them. But what Riky Riky did was a bit much in my opinion. Hopefully he learns from this and I'm pretty sure if he does it again they won't give him any second chances. Paedophilia is a serious crime that can ruin the lives of it's victims. Definitely not something that anyone should be using lightly.
It also ruins the life of those falsely accused of it.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
The estimate Epic gave puts 16Bytes per triangle vs. 8bits for a texel (both compressed). Assuming same per-pixel density of detail for both, geometry eats a lot more bandwidth (which is how it's always been, we just use several orders of magnitude less detail in geometry shapes vs. texture in games to-date, that's why datasets are smaller).
I'm just going by all the info in this Official Epic: UnrealFest nanite video (uploaded by a third party) timestamped at the point they mention 1M triangles with UV as a 4K normal map


Fafalada said:
There's all but guarantee to be a hierarchical representation of the data - both for rendering and streaming efficiency (even if it's using Signed Distance Fields, you'd be storing the thing in some type of octree or the like), and you can think of different hiearchies as discrete LOD levels. Refer to how texture LODs work for a simplified representation.

This is what I wrote a few days ago to onesvenus onesvenus on the same topic. But the UnrealFest video states nanite has minimal CPU use, which blending of megascan fidelity octrees structs, etc doesn't really fit with IMO, going by how CPU heavy the original SVOgi solution I checked out 9 or so years ago was. Also, going by the AtomView model editing video I watched, I suspect the procedural geometry is much more generic from the same tiny shape, than the specific nature of BSP solutions to what they encompass.

I completely appreciate your headsup about SDFs, and far superior knowledge on the subject, so thank you for that, and I empathise with the last part of your post, and on balance of probabilities suspect you are probably correct - about LoDs still being used in the Nanite part of the rendering, even if it is using SDFs.

However, in saying that, from the introductory SDF info I got from these two links below, I'm probably leaning more towards no LoDs in nanite for various reasons.
Raymarching SDFs (Signed Distance Fields, or Functions sometimes)

Examples of basic SDF geometry

But just in case our definitions of what no LoDs would be are different, I'll first make my distinction. IMO a LoD level - much like a mipmap - is a discrete self contained/standalone version of the full item, just at a lower level of detail.

By comparison, I don't consider signals made up of multiple signal parts, eg Jpeg, MP3, etc to have LoD levels, primarily because the only level that represents the signal by itself, is the lowest detail base signal - all the other higher order components that need added to reconstruct the full signal, don't represent the signal, but just some aspect of it.

Any how, my main reasonings behind why I think an SDF Nanite solution wouldn't have any LoDs is as follows.

SDFs have seemingly been around for quite some time, and I don't think just formulating the best of existing real-time SDF techniques for use on new powerful consoles and putting them in a toolchain with a 2-way converter for megascans and AtomView assets is enough for Unreal engine 5's sales pitch. And even if it was, does it not seem odd to you, that UE5 nanite code is still under NDA for techniques that would already be in the public domain? I also think that from the way they've bullishly suggested that nanite could have handled massively more geometry, rendered at full 4k60 without slow down- if lumen wasn't the bottleneck - leans me to thinking nanite is a very simple solution that doesn't care about what it is encoding and rendering.

On the technical side , to achieve that, I would be expecting Epic to have looked at procedurally representing megascans/atomview assets with just one repeating general purpose SDF primitive - a triangle - and like a JPEG encoder, are (3D) quantising the (normalised model space) asset with their SDF primitive to generate a base signal; by starting at the furthest visible distance - in some standard Frustum setup with a 4K viewport - and continuing towards the near frustum clip plane.

Naturally, if they have been able to achieve something like a JPEG style of signal representation, then I would expect the computational cost of rendering the complex items at distance to automatically be tiny, and as they fill the screen, the cost would be massive, but because the union with other SDFs in the scene would eliminate the other SDF items' higher order workloads, because those SDFs were occluded, the expected computational cost would even out mostly, would be my way of thinking if that was the solution.
 
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dcmk7

Banned
Strong claims to accuse someone of lying. What was lied about and how significant is that alleged lie to customers and the performance of the device? Most importantly can you prove it?
This is very rich. You accuse experts of lying without any proof, to fit your narrative, all the time.

Predominantly all your posts are misleading, to paint one company better than the other and you've got to the point where you are disparaging developer comments, and questioning their knowledge, without any facts at all.

It's all very desperate.
 

arvfab

Banned
Saying " Yes the GDK/XDK are better for porting, and they allow for way more flexibility, and that's cool. But devs not being arsed to unlock the same features on Sony consoles because there's more work compiling the game on a different SDK is... well... Not Sony's fault. Kudos to MS for making it possible, though." is funny because it IS Sony 'fault'. Just like it's MS 'fault' for releasing the XSS and hurting the current generation right? It is asking devs to do extra work to get performance out of the system. Platform holders should be making game development easier. That's why it's on MS to ensure that the XSX|S's features are easy to utilize. The one point I will concede is that if the Xbox didn't exist PS5's way would be the best way of handling this whole thing. Sadly there has been proven to be a better way and MS has shown that. Sony should adopt these things.
You are totally missing the point here.
If a developer doesn't want to release a dedicated PS5 version, but only a PS4 (Pro) version, that's fine, they don't have to. This means, PS5 players will play the PS4 version "as-is". Sure, the Xbox gamers will probably have some advantages, because of the good job Microsoft did in regard of how BC works (and which NOBODY is denying), but nobody is "held back".

On the other hand, for NEW dedicated current-gen games, developers HAVE TO at least put extra work for a XSS version, otherwise they are not allowed to release on Xbox. In the worst case scenario, they might even need to change gameplay mechanics because of it.
 

Dodkrake

Banned
There is a lot to unpack here so let's see how to address this. I don' t know about victories but there have been several cases of games performing quite well on the XSS, a much maligned system here. Whenever the XSS runs at a lower resolution or has a hiccup it is proclaimed that it has 'ruined' this generation. When it has more games running at 120fps than the PS5 special conditions are created to make the PS5 look good instead of just admitting that the XSS is doing good work. There is a bit of an odd double standard. Again the XSS wasn't expected to do ANYTHING better than the PS5. Some compared it to the Switch after all.

The XSS is already struggling to run some cross gen titles at both acceptable framerates and resolution.

Your comment about console warring DF video sounds like you are taking those videos too personally. Please give an example of an "objectively false, misleads the customer, and creates false poor awareness on a brand." from DF. Look at this statement "test BC games and then claim the Series X version is superior to the PS5 version, when there is no PS5 version. ' There isn't an Series version of the game either though right? I could see your point if the Xbox version was tailor-made and the PS5 version was not but that isn't the case. So if DF says the game runs better on XSX that may objectively be true. That's why I said that calling it BC oversimplifies it because PS5 is also doing BC. Would you say they are doing the same thing? The XSX|S isn't running the games like the X1 so its much more than BC.

The Series X is doing more than back compatibility. This has been covered before, and I'm not about to explain this yet again when others have done it better

Your comment "It's like me comparing an Xbox 360 game running on the Series X to the remastered version for PS5 and saying the later wins. It's asinine, it's false advertising, and misleads the audience." is pretty amazing though. Comparing the X360 game running on the XSX vs a completely new version running on the PS5 is exactly OPPOSITE of what is happening though. The XSX|S and PS5 are running the SAME game, like Biomutant for example and getting different outcomes. There is no special remaster and in many cases the developers aren't needed to get the improvements. You see this with FPS boost too, no dev involvement.

They are getting different outcomes because Biomutant's Devs couldn't be arsed to "fix" PS5's 4k output. That's all. Also, the next gen version is not out yet.

Saying " Yes the GDK/XDK are better for porting, and they allow for way more flexibility, and that's cool. But devs not being arsed to unlock the same features on Sony consoles because there's more work compiling the game on a different SDK is... well... Not Sony's fault. Kudos to MS for making it possible, though." is funny because it IS Sony 'fault'. Just like it's MS 'fault' for releasing the XSS and hurting the current generation right? It is asking devs to do extra work to get performance out of the system. Platform holders should be making game development easier. That's why it's on MS to ensure that the XSX|S's features are easy to utilize. The one point I will concede is that if the Xbox didn't exist PS5's way would be the best way of handling this whole thing. Sadly there has been proven to be a better way and MS has shown that. Sony should adopt these things.

Bad faith argument much? Dev's not being arsed to compile a game using PS5's SDK, which likely requires some work (like compiling using different SDK's for Android, for example. You may need to adjust your code), is not the same as Microsoft releasing an insufficient console.

Finally "As for Smart Delivery, are you aware the PS5 does the same? When I install a game, if 2 gens are available, it allows me to pick which version to install. Both of them do the exact same.' This has not been my experience. Multiple games that have a specific PS5 version tend to NOT have saves that cross both versions. From the systems perspective they are different games. This again shows how MS was quite thoughtful with how they handled games in general across their platform. When I downloaded Destiny 2 I got both the PS4 and PS5 versions. I had to stop downloading one and erase it. Games like Spiderman had to be patched to support their old saves. It just shows Sony didn't think about these things much because I don't think compatibility was something they were concerned about. That makes sense because Sony philosophy has always been for you to get a new box and get rid of the old. MS wanted to blend generations and like I said before that has not turned out too badly for them, or developers who don't want to go back to patch games to take advantage of the new hardware.

I did not mention saves, I mentioned installations. Please address the points instead of going around them.

As for Smart Delivery, if a game is not compatible with it, there's no guarantee the saves will be compatible. The save transfer policy is only guaranteed for Smart Delivery games. - "For Smart Delivery games, game saves, achievements, and progress all continues where you left off."

Sony doesn't need a fancy name like "smart delivery" to have the same featureset. Finally, Spiderman Remastered and Spiderman are not the same game, hence the need for a patch.
 
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From Wiki:

"Some consider that it is a valid inductive argument if all parties of a discussion agree on the reliability of the authority in the given context, while others consider that it is always a fallacy to cite an authority on the debated topic as the primary means of supporting an argument."

K-Pop GIF
lol man, the problem here is you didn't even try :messenger_tears_of_joy: "some say this, while others say that"

You're confusing an appeal to authority argument (valid and the most common argument in the world) with the similarly named appeal to authority fallacy. It's really not hard at all, so just learn from this exchange instead of digging the heels. Btw it's also known as appeal to false authority, just to be even clearer. So you misrepresented his argument as a logic fallacy when obviously a game dev is an authority in the topic of gaming/software development.

hard to find 1st google result...
 
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lol man, the problem here is you didn't even try :messenger_tears_of_joy: "some say this, while others say that"

You're confusing an appeal to authority argument (valid and the most common argument in the world) with the similarly named appeal to authority fallacy. It's really not hard at all, so just learn from this exchange instead of digging the heels. Btw it's also known as appeal to false authority, just to be even clearer. So you misrepresented his argument as a logic fallacy when obviously a game dev is an authority in the topic of gaming/software development.

hard to find 1st google result...
An appeal to authority argument is not valid imo, especially when there's evidence to the contrary. I'm not confusing anything, see Wikipedia.
 
It also ruins the life of those falsely accused of it.

That's true.

It's going to sound a bit crazy but I saw a documentary where the cops were watching the internet for sexual predators. They basically looked at everything from Twitter, chat rooms to forums. And when they see something suspicious they start to investigate that person.

Not saying that happened with the comment but it's something to keep in mind when you say those types of things on the internet.
 
An appeal to authority argument is not valid imo, especially when there's evidence to the contrary. I'm not confusing anything, see Wikipedia.
sorry you are just wrong and please use any philosophy resource you want. Ironically using wikipedia in this discussion is in itself an example of the appeal to authority fallacy (the actual fallacy) you're trying to argue against :messenger_tears_of_joy:

just be informed already

"As such, there are certain requirements that should be met for an argument from authority to be legitimate:

  1. The authority is an acknowledged expert in the field under consideration.
  2. The statement of the authority is relevant to their field of expertise.
  3. There is a general agreement among experts in the field under consideration."
 
sorry you are just wrong and please use any philosophy resource you want. Ironically using wikipedia in this discussion is in itself an example of the appeal to authority fallacy (the actual fallacy) you're trying to argue against :messenger_tears_of_joy:

just be informed already

"As such, there are certain requirements that should be met for an argument from authority to be legitimate:

  1. The authority is an acknowledged expert in the field under consideration.
  2. The statement of the authority is relevant to their field of expertise.
  3. There is a general agreement among experts in the field under consideration."
Bruh, you killed your own argument because point 3 isn't even true in this case. And even if it were true, I still think it's a fallacy to simply rely on experts when there's evidence to the contrary. Experts are wrong all the time, just look at the covid situation.

We're hardcore derailing this thread btw, we should talk about tech in here.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
I'm just going by all the info in this Official Epic: UnrealFest nanite video (uploaded by a third party) timestamped at the point they mention 1M triangles with UV as a 4K normal map
Yes I was referring to the same.


This is what I wrote a few days ago to onesvenus onesvenus on the same topic. But the UnrealFest video states nanite has minimal CPU use, which blending of megascan fidelity octrees structs, etc doesn't really fit with IMO
Not sure why? None of these are workloads that can't operate on GPU. If adding unrelated algorithms into discussion, the only CPU heavy workload with SVOGI is runtime voxelization, which 'can' be offloaded to modern GPUs, it just wouldn't scale to certain older hw back in 2012. It's also irrelevant to this, since we're not talking about constructing acceleration structures at runtime, but reading them off of SSD.

Exactly. Do you agree with me that it also makes more sense to store those LODs on disk in instead of computing them in real time from the bigger mesh? It was a point of discussion some pages back with people saying there wouldn't even be a LOD system.
Yes, that's the entire sales-pitch behind Nanite as represented by their PR. Obviously there's no 'explicit' LOD-system, but they're pitching a temporally coherent data-structure that can fetch appropriate detail-levels based on what's visible off of disc, as the core-data set is basically unlimited in size (well - limited by what you can ultimately fit on the device storage).

Do you have a link about where to find these numbers? I was looking for them the other day but didn't find them.
See PaintTinJr's post I responded too - basically Epic quoted some numbers for number of polys/mesh size. Texture size is my inference (using DXTC5 or something like it) as I don't think they'd be quoting for uncompressed data.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
Bruh, you killed your own argument because point 3 isn't even true in this case. And even if it were true, I still think it's a fallacy to simply rely on experts when there's evidence to the contrary. Experts are wrong all the time, just look at the covid situation.

We're hardcore derailing this thread btw, we should talk about tech in here.
Wait what has COVID to do with your argument here? Some “expert” was wrong in an unrelated field of science so these experts are wrong in this unrelated field?
 

PaintTinJr

Member
See PaintTinJr's post I responded too - basically Epic quoted some numbers for number of polys/mesh size. Texture size is my inference (using DXTC5 or something like it) as I don't think they'd be quoting for uncompressed data.
If you watch closely, they never actually use the word polygon in the entire video when referring to nanite rendering of triangles. And my inference is that source data used to generate nanite geometry, rendered with near/far frustum planes with a ratio of 1 to 20,000 or 40,000, would need every bit of accuracy they could get; especially to provide soft multi-bounce real-time shadows. So I don't believe the DXTC5 would be accurate enough.

IMO artists would likely consider normal map compression after authoring their reference model when generating lower LoDs from an uncompressed asset. not while authoring.

The numbers also relate to the 768MB used for the compressed geometry pool, so my 1280MB for 20M visible nanite triangles per frame - before a light weight GPU compress down to 768MB - looks like a correct number IMHO.
 
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Bruh, you killed your own argument because point 3 isn't even true in this case. And even if it were true, I still think it's a fallacy to simply rely on experts when there's evidence to the contrary. Experts are wrong all the time, just look at the covid situation.

We're hardcore derailing this thread btw, we should talk about tech in here.
I guess my message passed even if begrudgingly then ;) now we all know there's a difference between appeal to authority and a false appeal to authority.

Tech wise, yeah, the XSS is an unfortunate unforced mistake made by Microsoft. Not only it's apparently not selling that well but it's also adding more complexity to the pipeline of work for devs. Would be great if they could late term abort it, but I guess the ship has sailed now.
 
I guess my message passed even if begrudgingly then ;) now we all know there's a difference between appeal to authority and a false appeal to authority.

Tech wise, yeah, the XSS is an unfortunate unforced mistake made by Microsoft. Not only it's apparently not selling that well but it's also adding more complexity to the pipeline of work for devs. Would be great if they could late term abort it, but I guess the ship has sailed now.
Your message was useless because, as quoted by yourself, the appeal to authority was indeed false. Sad!

XSS is still great btw :messenger_beaming: That little beast isn't going anywhere.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
MS shouldve just released a 5G handheld that played every xsx game at 1080p. You dont need to cheap out on the GPU or the SSD or the VRAM. Just get a semi decent CPU to stream shit and a integrated GPU should be able to do the rest. I dont know how much 5G antennas cost but i dont see that handheld being more than $150-200. Thats a perfect pricepoint for casuals if the switch lite is any indication. And it doesnt come at the expense of potentially holding back an entire gen.

And since MS loves services so much, they couldve just bundled in a 5G subscription. Or force Gamepass on it. I dont know. There are so many things they couldve done here.

It will be interesting to see what Nintendo has planned for Switch Pro. I hoped its a docked only console for $399 with an ssd and a good CPU that could potentially compete with the PS5. I have a feeling they will go with a 2 tflops handheld with DLSS but I really hope its more in the range of 8 tflops so their first party can compete with Sony and MS.
 
I hope this is allowed in here...

From PS Blog

“During this State of Play, we will debut the Horizon Forbidden West gameplay reveal! In this 20-minute exclusive segment, you’ll be seeing about 14 minutes of brand new in-game action featuring our heroic protagonist Aloy, all captured directly on PlayStation 5.”

This will be a good test to see how Sony handles cross-gen triple A games and if and how they’ll be able to push the PS5 hardware beyond load times and ray tracing.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Not sure why? None of these are workloads that can't operate on GPU. If adding unrelated algorithms into discussion, the only CPU heavy workload with SVOGI is runtime voxelization, which 'can' be offloaded to modern GPUs, it just wouldn't scale to certain older hw back in 2012. It's also irrelevant to this, since we're not talking about constructing acceleration structures at runtime, but reading them off of SSD.
I get where you are coming from with streaming into BVH acceleration, but they are talking about the engine data being full editable and live. Surely that means real-time re-voxelization and blending of megascan assets when things are moved in engine - if they are using BSP/hierarchical structures?

In the UnrealFest nanite video they even mention that current editing packages are struggling with the models - hence breaking the 33M warrior into 3 parts for authoring - and say that "some could render them very slowly", or something to that affect. If the solution was just some reuse of existing BSP techniques, that the UE5 nanite editor and engine use with standard polygons, then surely the existing tools could just do the same, too?

I don't believe that is what they are doing, and I'm getting a vibe from the video that says assets will be authored as they always have - with Max/zbrush, megascan, atomview, etc - but when those assets are imported, that's when the new system kicks in for real-time rendering with nanite.

In the UnrealFest video, they also state nanite's performance at ~5ms is rasterization - inferring that fixed BVH acceleration isn't involved.
 
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MS shouldve just released a 5G handheld that played every xsx game at 1080p. You dont need to cheap out on the GPU or the SSD or the VRAM. Just get a semi decent CPU to stream shit and a integrated GPU should be able to do the rest. I dont know how much 5G antennas cost but i dont see that handheld being more than $150-200. Thats a perfect pricepoint for casuals if the switch lite is any indication. And it doesnt come at the expense of potentially holding back an entire gen.

And since MS loves services so much, they couldve just bundled in a 5G subscription. Or force Gamepass on it. I dont know. There are so many things they couldve done here.

It will be interesting to see what Nintendo has planned for Switch Pro. I hoped its a docked only console for $399 with an ssd and a good CPU that could potentially compete with the PS5. I have a feeling they will go with a 2 tflops handheld with DLSS but I really hope its more in the range of 8 tflops so their first party can compete with Sony and MS.
5G is like 5 years away from widespread use. There's also no reason to build dedicated handhelds when you can just put the xcloud app on any portable device on the planet (really hope Nintendo allows it but probably not).
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
From PS Blog

“During this State of Play, we will debut the Horizon Forbidden West gameplay reveal! In this 20-minute exclusive segment, you’ll be seeing about 14 minutes of brand new in-game action featuring our heroic protagonist Aloy, all captured directly on PlayStation 5.”

This will be a good test to see how Sony handles cross-gen triple A games and if and how they’ll be able to push the PS5 hardware beyond load times and ray tracing.
Yep. A lot is riding on this game IMO. If it's like Miles where it looks virtually identical outside of some Ray tracing enhancements then I suspect there will be a backlash.

This is my favorite shot of the trailer. At the risk of upsetting some folks, i think this looks Pixar quality. If this gets downgraded then things are going to get ugly.

yPWXmMK.gif
 
Yep. A lot is riding on this game IMO. If it's like Miles where it looks virtually identical outside of some Ray tracing enhancements then I suspect there will be a backlash.

This is my favorite shot of the trailer. At the risk of upsetting some folks, i think this looks Pixar quality. If this gets downgraded then things are going to get ugly.

yPWXmMK.gif
I think that's a cutscene. The gameplay footage had like no anti aliasing whereas the footage where Aloy dives into the water is anti-aliased. Same thing with the shot of Aloy drawing her bow.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I think that's a cutscene. The gameplay footage had like no anti aliasing whereas the footage where Aloy dives into the water is anti-aliased. Same thing with the shot of Aloy drawing her bow.
What gameplay?

I don't think there was any.. hence why they are calling this SOP a "gameplay reveal."
 

reksveks

Member
Yep. A lot is riding on this game IMO. If it's like Miles where it looks virtually identical outside of some Ray tracing enhancements then I suspect there will be a backlash.

This is my favorite shot of the trailer. At the risk of upsetting some folks, i think this looks Pixar quality. If this gets downgraded then things are going to get ugly.

yPWXmMK.gif
Yeah, this is a cutscene imo and shouldn't be representative of anything but of cutscenes. Its a great looking cutscene though.
 

Md Ray

Member
Can’t wait to see the comparison between Rachet & horizon, which one will fare better? Rachets improved alot since last year, will we see similar improvements for horizon? Excited to see.
It (Horizon) being a cross-gen title makes me feel it isn't going to have that full next-gen "wow factor". You know what I mean? I'm just setting my expectations low due to this reason.

I would love to be proven wrong though.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah, this is a cutscene imo and shouldn't be representative of anything but of cutscenes. Its a great looking cutscene though.
Yeah, but if I dont see a seagull plunge and snatch a fish out of the ocean, I am gonna riot like its 2020.

There was also this shot of the fish dispersing as crocobots go through them.

5UIXs2F.gif


How are they gonna get that running on a PS4? Can the PS4 even do this? Is that feature getting axed on PS4? Downgraded? Will it be downgraded on both consoles like Watch Dogs did back in the day because devs never really want to maintain two different versions of the game? Or will it be like the later cod games where a separate studio is tasked with downporting?

I am excited for the thursday gameplay reveal, and mortified at the same time.
 

reksveks

Member
Yeah, but if I dont see a seagull plunge and snatch a fish out of the ocean, I am gonna riot like its 2020.

There was also this shot of the fish dispersing as crocobots go through them.

5UIXs2F.gif


How are they gonna get that running on a PS4? Can the PS4 even do this? Is that feature getting axed on PS4? Downgraded? Will it be downgraded on both consoles like Watch Dogs did back in the day because devs never really want to maintain two different versions of the game? Or will it be like the later cod games where a separate studio is tasked with downporting?

I am excited for the thursday gameplay reveal, and mortified at the same time.
another cutscene imo with no game logic behind it but we won't have to wait long to see if i am being overly pessimistic .
 

thewire

Member
It (Horizon) being a cross-gen title makes me feel it isn't going to have that full next-gen "wow factor". You know what I mean? I'm just setting my expectations low due to this reason.

I would love to be proven wrong though.
Agree, it doesn’t have the wow factor like rachet does but we haven’t seen anything since June last year, whilst rachet has been shown a lot & the recent footage has gotten such an improvement from last year, honestly the best looking game I’ve ever seen.
I still expect horizon to look amazing as lots of graphics features are scalable but I’m longer expecting flying mounts or Reyes type tech in horizon forbidden west.
 

thewire

Member
Yeah, but if I dont see a seagull plunge and snatch a fish out of the ocean, I am gonna riot like its 2020.

There was also this shot of the fish dispersing as crocobots go through them.

5UIXs2F.gif


How are they gonna get that running on a PS4? Can the PS4 even do this? Is that feature getting axed on PS4? Downgraded? Will it be downgraded on both consoles like Watch Dogs did back in the day because devs never really want to maintain two different versions of the game? Or will it be like the later cod games where a separate studio is tasked with downporting?

I am excited for the thursday gameplay reveal, and mortified at the same time.
Could just be like how the pedestrians & traffic scales from miles ps4-ps5, kena has some similar feature with black fury things between PS4 & ps5. Either way, I have big expectations for guerrilla games when it comes to visuals & tech. Decima is still one of the best engines in the industry, hope to hear a lot more about the improvements made to it as well.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Yeah if anything the debate about what was gameplay vs cutscenes in Forbidden West will hopefully be put to rest.

I still expect it to look amazing tho. Again Miles is one of the best looking cross gen games out.

Could we possibly see horizon forbidden west release this yr?
Its possible, or early next year. Trying to go by how they did Rift Apart. If Rift Apart was built for PS5 and HFW started development for PS4 it might come this year.

That was always the logic anyway, especially with it being cross gen.
 
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I hope they have more than this, that in-engine teaser about a year or two ago was excellent, if the game looks anything like that then it would be amazing.

Grubb apparently leaked that Xbox will be at E3 on June 13th I think so hopefully we get to see more. I also think that Sony would likely respond as well. I think both companies have their "this is next-gen" card stacked in their deck.

It also reminds me of RedGamingTech's comments he heard from a developer, that the PS5 and Series X's first party games will have a "distinct look" which will be formed early on in the generation, what this "distinct look" is, is anyones guess but I'm sure it has to something to do with the design philosophy of each console.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
If you watch closely, they never actually use the word polygon in the entire video when referring to nanite rendering of triangles. And my inference is that source data used to generate nanite geometry, rendered with near/far frustum planes with a ratio of 1 to 20,000 or 40,000, would need ever bit of accuracy they could get; especially to provide soft multi-bounce real-time shadows. So I don't believe the DXTC5 wouldn't be accurate enough.
The nice thing about compressing normals is that each is quantized in its own 0-1 range, so it's orthogonal to dimensions of the space, topology etc. So this case really isn't more demanding than other use of normal-maps to date.

The numbers also relate to the 768MB used for the compressed geometry pool, so my 1280MB for 20M visible nanite triangles per frame - before a light weight GPU compress down to 768MB - looks like a correct number IMHO.
That's just fitting numbers to a predetermined conclusion. We don't have the internal data to reasonably deduce this.
Epic's quote would suggest 20M polys = 320MB, but even that is an assumption. Likewise whether 768MB is a pool allocation (which means it's not 100% full all of the time and could fall any number of ways in what data sits there) or an average usage (meaning it can go up and down) is equally undetermined. Or the fact this probably means all data, including textures which would still fit inside 700MB budget if half of it was used to those 20M polys and they had about 8 texel/poly density.
But this (both yours and my numbers) is just throwing darts blindfolded - we don't have even close to enough information to speculate with a sense of accuracy on it.

I get where you are coming from with streaming into BVH acceleration, but they are talking about the engine data being full editable and live.
I mean most of implementations out there have editable vs. runtime representation setup differently, so it's not all or nothing type of thing necessarily. You yourself state below:
I don't believe that is what they are doing, and I'm getting a vibe from the video that says assets will be authored as they always have - with Max/zbrush, megascan, atomview, etc - but when those assets are imported
Basically if that's the case - runtime is static (like shown in the demo), and live-editing might potentially exist where you compute changes as they are made, so no-persistent costs. Editing itself never comes for free either-way, but things like Dreams show it's doable at reasonable cost (and that's backed by SDFs too, since you like that concept ;)).

In the UnrealFest video, they also state nanites performance at ~5ms as rasterization - inferring that fixed BVH acceleration isn't involved.
Can you clarify what you mean here? What has 5ms budget have to do with acceleration structure choice, or it being fixed/not fixed?
 
It also reminds me of RedGamingTech's comments he heard from a developer, that the PS5 and Series X's first party games will have a "distinct look" which will be formed early on in the generation, what this "distinct look" is, is anyones guess but I'm sure it has to something to do with the design philosophy of each console.

I don't know if that's something to worry about or not.
 
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