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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
Remember, behind every successful man, there is a woman! But she's still behind.
It highlights how male-dominated SE's top-level staff is. I suppose they're trying to target fujoshi too, but making all the female characters hollow underlines how disconnected these guys are from the FF fan base.
Could be that the girls are actually great characters, but at this point in time things aren't looking up on that end.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
To be fair everyone in the main party are stock tropes too. Noctis is the dreamy, moody prince protagonist, Prompto is the annoying, bubbly friend, Ignis is the stoic, smart glasses guy, Gladio is the big, tough guy.
The dude is basically saying that female characters have to be sexy with that comment. How is me thinking that's a major issue "weird" to you exactly?
Because it's probably better to reprimand someone and correct their behavior rather than just kneejerk firing them over a comment like that. It was definitely a dumb comment to make, especially by someone who is supposed to be the marketing manager. There was a bit of a kerfuffle over it, but it was also like a year ago, so...
There seemed to be a bit of an overall lost in translation sort of situation going on with that part of that ATR anyway, if I recall correctly.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Look, a non-sexualized female protagonist in a fantasy Japanese role-playing game:
Yes, they're female... you can't tell me they aren't female under those outfits!
Fuck, I never even thought of that. Depressing.
Ridiculous, indeed. Moreover, even the mildest criticism on the subject will have a defense force rising up to call you a prude/feminist extremist/Jack Thompson/blah blah blah. Craziness.
Alas, yes. Really shows what he thinks women are worth.
Yep, and not just their character-action games either. From Software has been ahead of the game (at least most of the time) for a while.
Novel Mike
Member
Just wanted to add on the whole Cidney thing... After the costume DLC for Lightning in LR is anyone even going to be remotely surprised if a large portion of costumes are going to be this kind of crap again for Cidney?
I ultimately can't take Cidney seriously as a character, she may have some of the most dramatic emotional scenes in the game but I flat out wont be able to get into that after watching how the camera oggles her body all the fucking time. I didn't even mind her original design being sexy its not an outfit that makes sense in context of her job but that didn't bother me too much but when they use the fucking games camera to creep on her that just pisses me off and it honestly takes me out of the immersion I want to feel within a game like this.
Also I think that what bothers me the most about all these games with god awful female characters that are largely used for fanservice or otherwise is that because of how these characters are being designed we can't actually get serious female characters and that without them we end up missing an entire spectrum of plot possibilities.
The past comment about how many female FF characters are middled aged or older is particularly disturbing (and its far from being alone in that regard) I don't mind it much for older titles but its crazy to think about the amount of characters representing different ages for men and then thinking about the same thing for women they don't even come close to being compared.
Age is an interesting element to a characters story, and to be fair FF has generally been more about the Teens/young adults saving the world but we still see a gambit of different ages for male characters across the series taking a verity of different life roles. child, teen, adult, father, husband, grandfather, ect. however female characters have ultimately been children, teens, young adults. Never a mother or grandmother to my knowledge and even in certain professional roles like being a Teacher such as Quistis from FF8 whose design largely screams 'sexy older woman' (even had a fan club) is ultimately still a fucking teenager when she could have been much older with the exact same design just with a different life perspective then basically being the same as all the other characters since they're all around the same age anyway. It just shows a missed opportunity to expand the storytelling structure these games have and provide perspectives we just have not gotten.
I'm not saying every game has to have characters from every age/demographic but its crazy to think out of 15 main FF games there is such a divide between the types of male and female characters we've had.
I ultimately can't take Cidney seriously as a character, she may have some of the most dramatic emotional scenes in the game but I flat out wont be able to get into that after watching how the camera oggles her body all the fucking time. I didn't even mind her original design being sexy its not an outfit that makes sense in context of her job but that didn't bother me too much but when they use the fucking games camera to creep on her that just pisses me off and it honestly takes me out of the immersion I want to feel within a game like this.
Also I think that what bothers me the most about all these games with god awful female characters that are largely used for fanservice or otherwise is that because of how these characters are being designed we can't actually get serious female characters and that without them we end up missing an entire spectrum of plot possibilities.
The past comment about how many female FF characters are middled aged or older is particularly disturbing (and its far from being alone in that regard) I don't mind it much for older titles but its crazy to think about the amount of characters representing different ages for men and then thinking about the same thing for women they don't even come close to being compared.
Age is an interesting element to a characters story, and to be fair FF has generally been more about the Teens/young adults saving the world but we still see a gambit of different ages for male characters across the series taking a verity of different life roles. child, teen, adult, father, husband, grandfather, ect. however female characters have ultimately been children, teens, young adults. Never a mother or grandmother to my knowledge and even in certain professional roles like being a Teacher such as Quistis from FF8 whose design largely screams 'sexy older woman' (even had a fan club) is ultimately still a fucking teenager when she could have been much older with the exact same design just with a different life perspective then basically being the same as all the other characters since they're all around the same age anyway. It just shows a missed opportunity to expand the storytelling structure these games have and provide perspectives we just have not gotten.
I'm not saying every game has to have characters from every age/demographic but its crazy to think out of 15 main FF games there is such a divide between the types of male and female characters we've had.
Frankly it's completely irresponsible from a multimillion, international entertainment company to jeopardize their expensive investments by alienating large segments of the game-buying world population through shitty straight boy dick stroking. We have clear evidence and research that tells you that some people, especially women, are put off by sexualized female characters.
If I was an investor or involved in the business of Square Enix, I would be really upset with what the lead developers of FFXV have been doing with their representation of female characters in an internationally distributed series that cost millions of dollars of investment to make.
If I was an investor or involved in the business of Square Enix, I would be really upset with what the lead developers of FFXV have been doing with their representation of female characters in an internationally distributed series that cost millions of dollars of investment to make.
lets be real for a second, Investors dont give a crap about anything other than profits
Exactly. And if a risky investment like a flagship title that's supposed to have broad international appeal to maximize sales is doubling down on alienating consumer preferences such as otakus (or whatever horny straight boys are called), then as an investor, I would give a crap, because it's affecting potential profits.
"I'd like some more respectful portrayals of female characters that are shown as capable or otherwise not objectified" = feminist extremism.
Please, keep going. This is comedy gold.
i 100% disagree, i dont think this will deter a noticeable amount of people from buying the game. This is probably the most hyped game in a long while, its gonna sell a lot.
When i think feminist "extremism", i think of fringe feminists calling for the castration of men, men to be eliminated ect. Not someone asking for pixels in a video game that we assume to be female to be less sexy. Its a request, not a demand.
RedlineRonin
Member
Lemme be clear before I state my position that I think her design is pandering, which is more offensive to me personally. Same with quiet in MGS. You think I'm that dumb that I would buy your game because of some T&A. Also makes me mad because it's hard to advance the medium and make me tell people I'm proud of games when you see shit like that.
All that said, Akuma is spot on. Sitting in an echo chamber of a thread and thinking this will have a big impact on sales is ridiculous. And not only that, but if you're an investor, that's not the argument. It's all about incremental sales, so how much do you lose when the character designs don't look like that? Hollywood, advertising, you name it. It's been proven that sex sells time and time again.
Again, not in agreement with any of it and dislike it myself, but I won't pretend like my singular (or any minoriry group's) opinion will have a large impact on sales.
Vlaphor
Member
That, I honestly don't see. I've yet to see a case where fanservice led to fewer sales, and fanservicey characters tend to sell the most merchandise.
OP, for some palate cleansing positivity with the FF ladies, this has made my week (month? year?) - World of Final Fantasy Tifa smashing out Final Heaven. EXPLOSION.
They absolutely nailed it with this one. It focuses on Tifa's awesomeness as an over-the-top martial artist with the cutest face.
And that is a major relief, since a few people made the joke that maybe she would be represented in World of FF like this:
It goes back to what I said before: there seems to be a split between the fanbase and possibly within SE who consider the character's definitive traits to be her personality and strength, while the other side wants to look at her as the poster child for videogame wank material. More than once I've had real-world conversations with people regarding the Remake to which they've replied "They better be huge and jiggling, or fuck that game."
And as it's been mentioned a few times before as a reasonable middle ground, it's not like you aren't allowed to have fanservice. If the Remake is going to have custom clothing (and I hope with all my hope that it does), there absolutely will be a few sexy outfits for Tifa to wear. But there's a way to do sexy without demeaning the character: she could have a cool chinese dress like Chun Li or Jam, or the original jeans look she was going to have. Even a swimsuit is acceptable as long as everyone else has one (they most certainly won't miss the chance to cater to the fangirls with a shirtless Cloud).
Unfortunately, the original game simultaneously had the greatest and poorest representaiton of the character: in-between the well written scenes were moments like Cloud raiding her underwear drawer or the distractingly huge balloons during FMV sequences. There's also the amount of erotic fan-art and doujins that could populate an entire island at this point: Tifa is definitely a character that doesn't need anymore fanservice pandering.
If a character's defining trait is their chest size, they aren't a good character in my book. I'll continue to cross my fingers that Remake will do it right.
Strangely enough, SE has been pretty progressive about marketing their women characters (compared to other publishers who are adamant not to market their female characters or even greenlight games starring them). I don't know if this worked for FFXIII, though it did make Lightning a wildly popular (and lucrative, think of all the games, both XIII and non-XIII related games) character if Famitsu polls are to be believed. Don't forget they also published Life is Strange without pressuring DontNod to change the story.
And they all had some success with it. I think their only flunk was The 3rd Birthday, but that had a lot of other factors working against it.
So it IS strange they're alienating an audience that have reacted both positively and strongly before.
Yabberwocky
Member
Just reposting this from the TGS thread, because I didn't want to derail the TGS thread too much. I thought some of it was relevant to this thread, so I thought it was appropriate to move it over here. Gotta go back to being a bit more productive for now (you're a sneaky time sink, GAF), but will try to catch up on the thread later.
I guess the gender of a character means something because it does? Which is a very useless reply, I know. FF, whilst not perfect, has a solid history with its female characters. The problem with FFXV is that the female supporting cast is quite light on in leading roles, and being the only female lead, poor Luna has so many expectations on her at once. That's why it's so incredibly important to have diverse casts in any medium, because then creators are given more freedom in the characters they can create. If there were more women in lead roles throughout FFXV, I honestly don't think there would be nearly as much discussion on the matter, even with the changes from Stella -> Luna. Luna could just be Luna. If Gladio had been a woman, or Ardyn/Ravus/Iedolas/Regis, etc, less would ride on how Luna is represented. I have a love-hate relationship with Game of Thrones, but it's a great example of how having a large female cast gives you freedom in where you take your characters. Catelyn is a loving mother that is not without her own emotional baggage. Cersei is a horrible, complicated, traumatised human being. Daenerys is a loving mother and vengeful conqueror in one. Yara is a practical, no-bullshit seafaring captain. Margery is manipulative and earnest, but adores her family. The Queen of Thorns hilariously steals ever scene she's in, because she's the Queen of Goddamn Thorns. The Sand Snakes... are a thing. Because the amount of female characters on the show is changing and vast, nothing rides on any of these women in regards to female representation. These women are noble, cowardly, power-hungry, brave, wise, naive, desperate, weak, and powerful. Some are physically capable, some are not. Because there are so many of them, it doesn't matter if the characters embody both negative and positive traits. They can just be compelling characters.
I do absolutely agree that 'strong female character' is a frustrating, useless term, because it doesn't really mean anything. It's more important to have well-written female characters, characters with their own arcs and motivations outside of the male lead, their own strengths and flaws. Strong Female Character has just understandably become an easy blanket term. Hollywood is always happy to throw it around in interviews in regards to their female leads, and inevitably these characters still end up being prized supporting props in the background. I can see why people are quite wary of hearing 'strong female lead' over and over in regards to Luna.
That Aloy shade, though! It's refreshing to have a bit of a generic female lead, doesn't happen very often.
There absolutely isn't anything wrong with one character supporting another characters story, it's just that FFXV has ended up in a place where all the important characters outside of Luna are all men. Noctis and co, Regis, Ravus, Niflheim/Ardyn. This isn't an issue that's new to the franchise, but on top of this, Luna's motivations are tied heavily centred around Noctis. In comparison, Lenna/Faris, Terra/Celes, Aerith, Rinoa (50/50), Garnet, Yuna, and Ashe all have their main plot motivations very independent of the male leads. To make the issue even more dodgy, in FFXV, we've only got Luna as the advertised female lead, and in the supporting cast we have Sexy Bikini Mechanic, Sexy Metal Sports-Bra Mercenary, Mysterious Assistant, and Lil' Sis with a crush. It's a bit of a step back even after FFXIII, where we had Lightning, Fang, and Vanille in lead roles, Serah in a supporting role, and Jihl as the most anti-climatic villain ever. (Also, Etro, I guess, ha.) I'm obviously only judging the women of FFXV from what we've seen in the advertising, and I'm absolutely assuming there will be more to them than that! I don't entirely dump the blame on Tabata for the issues with women in FFXV, either, as under Nomura Versus XIII was lacking in women from the very beginning. Whilst I do think having an all-male permanent party is a missed opportunity for some interesting dynamics, it would have been considerably less of an issue if there were more female characters in prominent supporting and/or antagonist roles. Ardyn, Ravus, Cor, anyone. Instead, all the expectations - both in-game and out - ride on poor Luna.
I mean, I really only hold up Final Fantasy to Final Fantasy for comparison, as it's such a unique beast in terms of JRPGs. Very few other RPGs have the grandiose scale, and the budget to match. I don't think expecting so little of FFXV because it is a JRPG is fair to FFXV, Final Fantasy, or JRPGs in general. Speaking of FF alone, many of the games in the series have been well-written, with interesting characters with good development. The sexualisation of female characters has never been a huge staple for the series, either. There have absolutely been characters that were designed to be more sexualised than others, but there has definitely been a huge shift from FFX-2 onwards in this direction. FFX-2, The 3rd Birthday, Type-0, Lightning Returns. I mean, Tabata or Toriyama are the common theme on each of these games, but their decisions aren't exactly being vetoed by the higher ups at Square over the years. The more noticeable difference being that FFXV is the first mainline game to really double-down on this kind of treatment with female characters in recent years, as opposed to the spin-offs.
At any rate, this is all absolutely a much, much bigger issue outside of FF, but I think FFXV currently gets the brunt of it as it's such a huge, well-known franchise with a long history and many well-written female characters. For better or worse, FFXV does seem to have issues in this department from the previous entries in the mainline series, and that's why the discussion keeps going round and round. I really like Luna, and will be over the moon (sorry) happily eating any and all crow if she turns out well.
I guess the gender of a character means something because it does? Which is a very useless reply, I know. FF, whilst not perfect, has a solid history with its female characters. The problem with FFXV is that the female supporting cast is quite light on in leading roles, and being the only female lead, poor Luna has so many expectations on her at once. That's why it's so incredibly important to have diverse casts in any medium, because then creators are given more freedom in the characters they can create. If there were more women in lead roles throughout FFXV, I honestly don't think there would be nearly as much discussion on the matter, even with the changes from Stella -> Luna. Luna could just be Luna. If Gladio had been a woman, or Ardyn/Ravus/Iedolas/Regis, etc, less would ride on how Luna is represented. I have a love-hate relationship with Game of Thrones, but it's a great example of how having a large female cast gives you freedom in where you take your characters. Catelyn is a loving mother that is not without her own emotional baggage. Cersei is a horrible, complicated, traumatised human being. Daenerys is a loving mother and vengeful conqueror in one. Yara is a practical, no-bullshit seafaring captain. Margery is manipulative and earnest, but adores her family. The Queen of Thorns hilariously steals ever scene she's in, because she's the Queen of Goddamn Thorns. The Sand Snakes... are a thing. Because the amount of female characters on the show is changing and vast, nothing rides on any of these women in regards to female representation. These women are noble, cowardly, power-hungry, brave, wise, naive, desperate, weak, and powerful. Some are physically capable, some are not. Because there are so many of them, it doesn't matter if the characters embody both negative and positive traits. They can just be compelling characters.
I do absolutely agree that 'strong female character' is a frustrating, useless term, because it doesn't really mean anything. It's more important to have well-written female characters, characters with their own arcs and motivations outside of the male lead, their own strengths and flaws. Strong Female Character has just understandably become an easy blanket term. Hollywood is always happy to throw it around in interviews in regards to their female leads, and inevitably these characters still end up being prized supporting props in the background. I can see why people are quite wary of hearing 'strong female lead' over and over in regards to Luna.
That Aloy shade, though! It's refreshing to have a bit of a generic female lead, doesn't happen very often.
There absolutely isn't anything wrong with one character supporting another characters story, it's just that FFXV has ended up in a place where all the important characters outside of Luna are all men. Noctis and co, Regis, Ravus, Niflheim/Ardyn. This isn't an issue that's new to the franchise, but on top of this, Luna's motivations are tied heavily centred around Noctis. In comparison, Lenna/Faris, Terra/Celes, Aerith, Rinoa (50/50), Garnet, Yuna, and Ashe all have their main plot motivations very independent of the male leads. To make the issue even more dodgy, in FFXV, we've only got Luna as the advertised female lead, and in the supporting cast we have Sexy Bikini Mechanic, Sexy Metal Sports-Bra Mercenary, Mysterious Assistant, and Lil' Sis with a crush. It's a bit of a step back even after FFXIII, where we had Lightning, Fang, and Vanille in lead roles, Serah in a supporting role, and Jihl as the most anti-climatic villain ever. (Also, Etro, I guess, ha.) I'm obviously only judging the women of FFXV from what we've seen in the advertising, and I'm absolutely assuming there will be more to them than that! I don't entirely dump the blame on Tabata for the issues with women in FFXV, either, as under Nomura Versus XIII was lacking in women from the very beginning. Whilst I do think having an all-male permanent party is a missed opportunity for some interesting dynamics, it would have been considerably less of an issue if there were more female characters in prominent supporting and/or antagonist roles. Ardyn, Ravus, Cor, anyone. Instead, all the expectations - both in-game and out - ride on poor Luna.
I mean, I really only hold up Final Fantasy to Final Fantasy for comparison, as it's such a unique beast in terms of JRPGs. Very few other RPGs have the grandiose scale, and the budget to match. I don't think expecting so little of FFXV because it is a JRPG is fair to FFXV, Final Fantasy, or JRPGs in general. Speaking of FF alone, many of the games in the series have been well-written, with interesting characters with good development. The sexualisation of female characters has never been a huge staple for the series, either. There have absolutely been characters that were designed to be more sexualised than others, but there has definitely been a huge shift from FFX-2 onwards in this direction. FFX-2, The 3rd Birthday, Type-0, Lightning Returns. I mean, Tabata or Toriyama are the common theme on each of these games, but their decisions aren't exactly being vetoed by the higher ups at Square over the years. The more noticeable difference being that FFXV is the first mainline game to really double-down on this kind of treatment with female characters in recent years, as opposed to the spin-offs.
At any rate, this is all absolutely a much, much bigger issue outside of FF, but I think FFXV currently gets the brunt of it as it's such a huge, well-known franchise with a long history and many well-written female characters. For better or worse, FFXV does seem to have issues in this department from the previous entries in the mainline series, and that's why the discussion keeps going round and round. I really like Luna, and will be over the moon (sorry) happily eating any and all crow if she turns out well.
opulent_lemon
Banned
No, it doesn't. Just because every single age group, body type, gender etc. is not represented does not make it sexist.
That's because there is no way to assess whether sales were affected by fan service, so that's an absolutely meaningless statement.
What I can say is that many women are turned off by excessive fan service and they make up over half the population, so how are you going to increase sales without reaching out to them? It's poor business sense.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It won't.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
But there is a much more diverse amount of male body types and ages than female. Again, there's no female character who's as old as Cid, and if there is, she likely hasn't aged a day and looks as young as Luna because reasons, in fact, the newest trailer implies that as Gentiana doesn't look a day older than she does in that flashback. Gaming in general has an issue with this and FF is no different.
Yellowflashdude
Member
Holy shit, this thread really blew up. FF being Japanese is definitely at play here. No western games get anywhere near this amount of scrutiny.
The issue is not having impact on existing sales; FF mainline sales have been on decline. FF13 made it past 6 million after some 5 years because they re-released the game on Steam. However, this is the world where The Witcher 3 sold 6 million in 3 weeks (most recent figure says shipped 10 million in 3/2016), where Skyrim sold 20 million plus. Successful IPs in the industry grew their sales with the growth of the market, but FF stagnated. It is clear there is room in the market left on the table, and FF has the opportunity to expand. Can it?
If you want to think about whether or not sales might be impacted, when FF13-2 first released in Japan, it debuted to about a third of 13's debut. Media Create, who tracks sales, noted that a factor in such low sales compared to its predecessor may be the sharp decline in female interest, from 31% to 22%.
FF13 sold about 5.5 million physical copies WW before it hit Steam. After several months on sale worldwide, Lightning Returns couldn't even make it past 1 million. How incremental is the difference between 5.5 million and 1 million? How incremental is the difference between FF13's shipment of 6 million and TW3's shipment of 10 million?
A recent study actually concluded that sex doesn't sell; it is only a popular misconception. Otherwise, the Japanese video game industry would be booming. Senran Kagura would sell tens of millions, and so would Dead or Alive.
The ones who are looking at the problems of FF15's female character are not the ones in the echo chamber; the ones who insist that Cidney is "not a huge deal, it's just one character" and proclaiming that Luna is 'fine' because she has one lip service scene as a 'show of strength', those are probably the ones who have already closed themselves to any criticism of what is wrong with female characters in games.
Tell me how old this lady is.
Well said.
Sexism doesn't have to be malicious. It's often subconscious or even preferential in our society - in games, in movies, in other media - to "toss out" a female character or never use them if they're older than 40. Actresses complain about this all the time, how middle-aged male actors can get work well into their golden years, while female actresses find their roles dry up over time as they age and become "less pretty", tying their "worth" as actresses to their beauty and not their ability.
And we see it constantly in games. Middle aged men are everywhere in leading roles in games - Splinter Cell, The Last of Us, God of War, etc. - but you'll rarely find a middle aged woman in video games in a starring role (or women in general in starring roles).
I'm still rolling my eyes over Soul Calibur V getting rid of Taki because "she's too old" according to the developers, yet her male counterparts are still there. She got replaced with a young, hip new substitute. The only reason Ivy stuck around is because they came up with some BS excuse that her blood keeps her eternally young. This happens constantly that if a game advances in years, their women are frozen in time (sometimes literally). Nina and Anna in Tekken? Frozen in stasis so that after twenty years they're still youthful. Aya Brea in Parasite Eve? Her unique biology keeps her perpetually locked in her twenties. Samara's a 1000 year old Asari matriarch? Looks like a statuesque model regardless. The "1000 year old dragon" is a ridiculous trope at this point, but if a woman ages naturally, she's often written out of the games at a certain point, even as her male counterparts continue.
We have had a few recent examples that have broken the mold. Ana in Overwatch is a breath of fresh air, and Mortal Kombat shockingly decided it was okay to not just age Sonya Blade into the mid-40s divorcee mother she became, but LOOK like she aged into a middle-aged mom as well and STILL kept her front and center in the combat and gameplay.
"Women are too hard to animate". "You'll want to PROTECT Lara in this game." "We had to fight to put Elle on the cover of The Last of Us."
This isn't exclusively a Japanese thing, but Japan HAS been one of the worst offenders in recent years. A lot of great female protagonists from Japanese games have taken hits recently and otaku fanservice culture is more prominent than ever in Japan, to the detriment of many progressive movements, both across the oceans and within Japan itself.
SliceSabre
Banned
I find FF13 series to be a weird FF game to chose to make your argument because it is the FF game with a strong female protagonist. In fact it is three FF games in a row with a strong female protagonist that all sold not as well as SE may have liked.
I say this looking past the fact a lot of people don't seem to like Lightning. This is also looking past the fact another game, FFXIV: ARR is a bright spot for FF games.
It's more about the series' popularity and AAA status then anything else. This game will be played by millions of people so it's understandable why people would be concerned about what message it may send.
If it were a smaller, lesser known Japanese game (that wasn't designed to appeal to western markets) then there wouldn't be anywhere near this amount of criticism.
I really hope that time and maturity will show that Lightning was a pretty poor example of a "strong female protagonist". Just because she's violent and punches her friends doesn't make her a strong female character. If anything, the majority of her presence in the games was immature, emotionally stunted, and even regressive.
I personally think characters like Terra, Yuna, and Ashe were vastly superior examples of "strong female leads". Square Enix, and countless Lightning fans, seem to equate her power levels as the same as "strength", while I think strength is more than just physicality and achieving godhood. It's emotional and spiritual strength, willpower and determination, and even kindness or putting on a smile in the face of pain and suffering for the sake of others.
I don't remember Lightning sitting down and giving up in XIII.
I would say she's the very definition of willpower and determination. She never loses sight of her goal to save Serah, and she never stops trying to carve her own path, even if she's unsure if she's going in the right direction. She doesn't wait for someone else to tell her what to do or help her. That has nothing to do with her physical strength, and I like her for that. Sure, she may have emotional issues, but why does she have to be this perfect martyr character? Yuna is my favorite FF female character, but they can't all be Yuna.
I do.I don't remember Lightning sitting down and giving up in XIII.
That was during the infamous "punching Snow" scene where she loses all hope, decides Serah is lost to her forever, says "this is goodbye", is horribly bitter about it, lashes out at Snow for failing to protect her, then says "screw you" to the entire party and decides to wander off on her own with Hope tagging behind her against her will. She gave up HARD at that point and it took the combined efforts of the rest of the group to bring her back around to a semblance of optimism and hope again, which took the majority of the game itself. If anything, she was defined BY her cynicism and fatalist attitude in FFXIII until the third act.
Except for that huge, prominent moment where she gives up on Serah and concludes that there's no way to save her... Except for that big, major, character-establishing moment...
Except for the part where she learns to stop trying to carve her own path on her own and to instead backtrack and rebuilding the paths and bridges she burned on her foolhardy pursuit of "independence" at the expense of everyone she knew and loved...
Because she, you know, wasn't going in the right direction, hence why she had to grow out of her established personality flaws that were consuming her.
And the game establishes that attitude kept getting her in trouble and pushing her loved ones away. The point of her character arc is to relax and TRUST OTHERS, to stop thinking she knows best and that she doesn't need their help.
She doesn't. She just has to be a decent human being who doesn't have the mental and emotional behavior of a spoiled, insolent child. "Worst birthday ever..."
No, but the traits that Yuna embodies - of selflessness, of kindness, of sacrificial heroism, of sheer emotional resilience, and of breaking out of societal norms when it's right to do so - are evident in MANY other female heroines in all forms of media, not just games or Final Fantasy titles.
It's important that we all get on the same page about what a "strong female character" entails. Your description is ALSO a common misconception.
Above all else, a "strong female character" is one who has AGENCY. As in, she has her own motivations and interests, and her actions (are allowed to) have an impact on the plot. As long as that is true, she can be as flawed as the writers want her to be. We don't need every female character to have an unbreakable heart of gold.
I don't disagree with you that Lightning has problematic aspects (especially in Lightning Returns), but she at least fits this definition of strong, if only barely.
Well, for Dark Souls II, I kinda can
Really disappointing that they'd just default to male until you get to the character creation skin. Why not let us create ourselves and start hollowed then, like Dark Souls 1? >_>
Does she?
She's cursed against her will. Her main motivation to protect Serah is taken from her against her will. She wanders around aimlessly for a bit on her own, yeah, but Hope tags along against her desires. She ultimately bumps into Fang who takes charge and fills her in, and she tags along with little agency because there's no much else she can do at this point.
I mean, I actually think she has growth by the third arc by FINALLY choosing to have faith and hope that Serah can be saved and the world can be redeemed, softening her fatalistic approach to the situation, but she has almost no real agency in the plot for the majority of the experience (to be fair, few of the characters actually do), and what agency they do have is often them making the incorrect and emotionally immature decisions until they finally get their act together.
But the movie Luna's in is out, as is various other bits of supplementary material.
I did say barely, but yes, all good points.
robertsan21
Member
I get where your coming from, when I saw cindy I also shrugged and asked myself why did they make her like this?
unfortunately they did, I wish they hadnt as it ruins the experience for me. " do love sexy women but not in games"
The nude male strapped to the hood of a car wouldnt go down smooth due to the majority of the peopel buying this game will be straight males, and to have nude men strapped to a car would probably a non selling product hahaha.
This doesnt mean there wont be one, who knows what DLC SE will bring us lol. Unfortunately nobody should be half naked and strapped to the hood of the car imo. SE made a big mistake sexualising a character like this.
unfortunately they did, I wish they hadnt as it ruins the experience for me. " do love sexy women but not in games"
The nude male strapped to the hood of a car wouldnt go down smooth due to the majority of the peopel buying this game will be straight males, and to have nude men strapped to a car would probably a non selling product hahaha.
This doesnt mean there wont be one, who knows what DLC SE will bring us lol. Unfortunately nobody should be half naked and strapped to the hood of the car imo. SE made a big mistake sexualising a character like this.
At least it's a better and more reasonable discussion than screaming about the graphics and image quality, then being utterly shocked that the unfinished game continues to optimize its visuals the closer it nears release.
...Clearly I made a mistake by trying to defend Lightning, lol. I guess by "give up" I meant "does nothing." She still doesn't stop moving, and doesn't stop trying to adapt to her circumstances. I get what you're saying, but I don't think having an emotional moment or a moment of doubt makes a character weak. Lightning's main focus has been looking after Serah for most of her life, so I think it's understandable that she might not know how to process the idea of losing her. And for most of the game her goal is to save her, at least from what I can remember.
I know that a big part of her story is about learning to trust others and let people in, which unfortunately gets largely ignored in the sequels. I don't know, I do think she's a flawed character, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing either. Anyway, not trying to start a big Lightning debate, but I like her for more than her physical strength, whether that makes her a "strong character" or not. I've heard and said those words so many times lately I think I'm beginning to lose sight of what that means anymore. xD
To be fair, Lightning wasn't wandering around aimlessly with Hope (like Sazh and Vanille). She, at the very least, had a half-baked plan to kamikaze the government. Her motivation shifted from protecting Serah to avenging her.
But Lightning decided to halt that plan when she realized she had no idea what the fuck the Fal'Cie's intentions were, which sucks a little bit. Would have been interesting to see a few of the characters get to the point where they actually DO something.
Going to re-post this:
-Female characters do not need to be strong. This idea that all female characters should be role models of some sort that we should be able to look up to is an idea that is damaging to female representation. Being human doesn't mean being strong and male characters have the advantage of being able to be all sorts of disgusting without being labeled as sexist representations that should be excised from fiction. Female characters should be given the room to breathe, to be completely wrong, weak, to not 'rise above what society would have them be, etc.' The issue is when female characters are presented as intrinsically not human in the ways men are.
Re: The Lightning discussion above: I don't know the details, I avoided FFXIII from the feedback it received, but the idea that a character giving up and throwing a tantrum makes her a bad character because she is a woman is stupid. Male characters do that in anime/JRPG all the time and need their strength from their friends to pick themselves back up. She might be a badly written, annoying character but female characters should be allowed moments of weakness and we should be allowed to see them as such without shouting 'this is sexist. No woman is weak like that! Fuck this drivel!' or recasting it as truly a moment of strength.
Female characters get put into this box because we are all on edge about what they are saying (not without good reason) and this harms character drama surrounding female characters. A female character runs the very real risk of having her character totally ignored in favor of seeing her as an avatar of all women. Suddenly, it all needs to be girl powah or it is sexist trash.
And I'm open to a female character being made weak because she is female and there being a lack of humanity in her character. I just don't think that the kneejerk reaction that all weakness in female characters is sexist is a healthy reaction or good for bringing the level of female characters to that of male characters in mainstream fiction.
-Female characters do not need to be strong. This idea that all female characters should be role models of some sort that we should be able to look up to is an idea that is damaging to female representation. Being human doesn't mean being strong and male characters have the advantage of being able to be all sorts of disgusting without being labeled as sexist representations that should be excised from fiction. Female characters should be given the room to breathe, to be completely wrong, weak, to not 'rise above what society would have them be, etc.' The issue is when female characters are presented as intrinsically not human in the ways men are.
Re: The Lightning discussion above: I don't know the details, I avoided FFXIII from the feedback it received, but the idea that a character giving up and throwing a tantrum makes her a bad character because she is a woman is stupid. Male characters do that in anime/JRPG all the time and need their strength from their friends to pick themselves back up. She might be a badly written, annoying character but female characters should be allowed moments of weakness and we should be allowed to see them as such without shouting 'this is sexist. No woman is weak like that! Fuck this drivel!' or recasting it as truly a moment of strength.
Female characters get put into this box because we are all on edge about what they are saying (not without good reason) and this harms character drama surrounding female characters. A female character runs the very real risk of having her character totally ignored in favor of seeing her as an avatar of all women. Suddenly, it all needs to be girl powah or it is sexist trash.
And I'm open to a female character being made weak because she is female and there being a lack of humanity in her character. I just don't think that the kneejerk reaction that all weakness in female characters is sexist is a healthy reaction or good for bringing the level of female characters to that of male characters in mainstream fiction.
I agree with you on this, there should be a diverse range of female characters. I think part of the problem is that we don't get a huge amount of female protagonists, and when we do, she is has to represent the entire population of women, or at least be aspirational in some way.
I have been guilty of it myself in the past, when I see a strong woman, I feel a sense of pride and I'm happy to see it represented in popular culture. There is an element of 'see, that's what us women can do'. But it also places al lot of pressure and expectation on female characters, she can't be all things to all people, if she was, she would be super bland. I've now moved on to expect not only strength, but depth of character. (Which I feel Lightning lacks btw, to me she is a walking checklist of 'female empowerment' with not much else).
Murder. She Wrote
Member
I wonder when OP will get to Shiva...
But seriously Japanese anime and video games are behind the times when it comes to decent female representation. It's gotten to the point where I just laugh and shit talk it.
But seriously Japanese anime and video games are behind the times when it comes to decent female representation. It's gotten to the point where I just laugh and shit talk it.