a good character is something you decide after knowing her.
Not just by looking at 5 minutes trailer (the movie is a prequel, so it has to be consistent with all the trailer).
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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
a good character is something you decide after knowing her.
Not just by looking at 5 minutes trailer (the movie is a prequel, so it has to be consistent with all the trailer).
Matoya from FFXIV comes to mind. She doesn't have a lot of scenes but she's awesome, plot-relevant, as wise as she's sarcastic and I love her VA. She steals every scene she's in and she's easily one of my favourite characters in FFXIV.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
You know, there are "extremists" out there who say some stupid shit about sexuality in games.
But you know who else are extremists? Otakus. And they're worse than just about everyone else.
But you know who else are extremists? Otakus. And they're worse than just about everyone else.
This thread is about first impressions.
KZXcellent
Member
I wish they didn't over-sexualize Cindy. Does this make me a "feminist extremist"? A character can look attractive without looking trashy.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
Oh, of course, now all otaku are extremists. I'm sure you define "otaku" as "pervy man who likes little girls", right?
I know plenty of people who identify as otaku who are not at all interested in the debate we're having right now. I even know some who are very feminist. Otaku!=pervert, at least no more than human=pervert.
No, that makes you a person with an opinion. Saying that they should change her design because it's ruining society would make you an extremist in my book.
Why do i have to keep repeating the same phrases over and over? This thread is about concerns people have about the promotional material before launch. So it is well within the rights of the people in the thread to talk about it.
Your saying people can't express their concerns or talk about these characters because the game isn't out yet? We've been talking about this game ever since it was announced.
i seems to think that Otaku is a loosely misinterpreted word. There are Otaku who only obsessed with something like Kamen Rider, etc or something that has nothing to do with female body parts.
Maybe you just need to call them as Pervert.
We should open a whole other thread just to challenge the validity of this "pullers" shit.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
Sure. It is based on my personal experience after living in Tokyo for two years, and I'd be happy to discuss it with others who have had different experiences. I don't exactly frequent Kabukicho or Roppongi.
There are quite a few results on Google when searching for "black person kyakubiki" though. They do mostly seem to be from people encountering them in Harajuku, Roppongi and Ueno though, so I may very well have misremembered about Kabukicho. They're definitely used more for kyakubiki than caucasians though.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I think customer pullers are called kyakubiki (not sure on the spelling), and they're usually Yakuza related. Never heard of the foreigner thing.
Luna, even with your arguments, I can't get behind on, simply because there are too many blanks. While I agree that some of the marketing for her has been a bit eyebrow-raising, a lot of it has not been such. She stands up to a crowd and speaks, she stands in the face of danger, and so on. I cannot pass any judgement until the game is released.
Cindy, definitely. All my luls.
Cindy, definitely. All my luls.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Nobody is saying that and what you're saying is at most a hyperbolic strawman of nuanced points or personal opinions that people are putting forth.
Despite how both of you feel about Lightning or how you perceive her popularity...well umm...
http://www.novacrystallis.com/2013/...ale-characters-from-the-final-fantasy-series/
(yes, I know you can still personally dislike the character but to act like no one actually did is a bit skewed. Of course, it also doesn't say why they like her)
Because this is actually a thread to base entire characters from "first impressions" as the user quoted above you says. You are well within your right to discuss these things, but don't expect any meaningful discussion to be had on either side. At least, I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing "yes, I agree" or "no, I disagree" with no end in sight with hardly any substance on either side. Threads like these are destined to be locked.
I liked Lightning in the second half of XIII. In XIII-2 she had almost zero personality and I haven't even scratched the surface of LR, but in XIII she developed in a way I could resonate with despite being a dude, even if it was more or less the defrosting ice queen development. Her relationship with the party improved greatly except Sazh (unfortunately, SE didn't give him much interaction with most of the party sans Vanille). Her interactions with Hope especially became much better, they developed an almost-sibling like relationship, more so than her and Serah.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Yes, Japan likes her, I know that. I don't dislike her, but I think her being the most popular in the franchise is just bizarre.
Anyways, that doesn't mean she's not poorly written at times. Plenty of awful dreck is popular. What's sad is that fairly "meh" bar for the characterization of a woman seems to have been missed in FFXV.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
This reads as pretty much that to me: "Repeat after me: "Video games are things people consume and have a real effect on people and therefore how they portray human beings matters.""
YankeeDonB
Member
At that level there's also Queen Braun, and Matron from VI and Aeris' mom and Ma Dincht, and that one forgettable judge from XII. But nobody with a major part, that's for sure.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
That's a valid point. It's a statement of how people's behaviours are impacted by cultural transmission. It's one of the central concepts behind any kind of sociological, sociocultural, or behavioural theory.
That's not "extremist" whatsoever.
You're right, I shouldn't complain because secs feel it's ok to include or have the main protagonist in games be white. I should just accept that bringing this point up or trying to talk about things like this is just crazy.
And yea that was sarcasm
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Read some academic literature chump.
The Effects of the Sexualization of Female Video Game Characters on Gender Stereotyping and Female Self-Concept
Sephiroth_VII
Member
Well, then would you say we should not have "sexualised" game characters? If so, how is it any different from the statement you said was a hyperbolic strawman?
Maybe tomorrow(It's 2am, so I'll probably be taking my leave). Having read the abstract though, it sounds like they only researched the short term effects. I still don't see how this is any different from the crap Jack Thompson was spewing back when we all laughed at him.
I did not say that. I'm sure if you read it that way. I just don't see it changing short-term, and don't know how you would be able to accelerate it Complain all you want.
Teuoxton
Member
The FFI Matoya might count too though she isn't as important as in XIV. Her dialogue is limited but funny and her theme is probably one of the most memorable songs from that game.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cydRVuK8OoM
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Kind of a leading question but...
In a perfect world, people could portray any character in whatever way they wanted, because nobody would have any sort of bias or prejudice toward any group of people, thus robbing potentially-offensive portrayals of the context that would make them offensive, were such a context to exist.
We don't live in that perfect world. We live in a world where women in games have historically been portrayed poorly or as objects of sexualization for a male audience, despite the fact that there are countless people that play video games who aren't horny teenage boys. It's juvenile and highly disrespectful to a major portion of games' potential audience. If we want games to advance as an art form, they need to be as inclusive and welcoming to as many people as possible. Portraying ideals that people, such as women in this instance, find demeaning, or that give potentially-dangerous ideas of women to an impressionable audience (boys AND girls are both negatively influenced by this sort of thing), is not the best thing from the medium. So criticizing and deconstructing these trends, as well as the trends that lead to them happening, is a big step forward in allowing games to become more mature, more respected as an art form, and more mainstream.
No one is calling for sexuality or certain archetypes with female characters to be banned altogether. People are just calling on games to grow up and acknowledge there's more to the world than just that. Diversity and putting forth new ideas hurts no one.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I dunno, maybe because contrary to the "lol Jack Thompson" strawman brought up in these conversations, we know that the way the world talks and portrays things like beauty, violence and sexuality has an impact on what we do?
And on a tangent, contrary to the "Jack Thompson was wrong!" comments we usually see (when really, Thompson was a nutter), we don't have any conclusive scientific statements on violence and aggression in video games. So let's drop it with the Thompson charade.
Black people aren't African Americans if they live in Japan.
Like I said, you have no taste.
It's also clear why you would argue against better representation now, since you're against "feminist extremists". Those who would use such terms usually feel threatened by people who ask for more equality between male and female characters, and of course would see no problem with the status quo, because it serves your interests to see skimpily clad women in all of your entertainment, and female characters that exist to be love interests with their motivations being to help the main male characters.
Asking for a character design change is not that crazy. It's a request by consumers who would prefer having a better product.
By talking about it we are accelerating it. Devs pop into gaf all the time couple of my friends who are devs talk about this place all the time. So maybe they can learn how players feel. And it's no just Japan American devs say they don't have more diversity because they don't know how to make those kinds of characters. They don't realize that just because a character is black doesn't mean the game has to be about race
Riposte
Member
If you are going to play the "I'm smart because I read(?) a study and that makes me automatically correct" card, at least be courteousness enough to post more meaningful excerpts that can be challenged or, better yet, a source that provides it for free instead of just posting the abstract and a link to buy it for 40 dollars. Here, I think this is a whole thing from a valid source: https://www.researchgate.net/public...n_Gender_Stereotyping_and_Female_Self-Concept
I have no strong feelings about the topic of FFXV's female/sexualized character designs, but NinjaCoachZ's post is euphemistic to the point of being entertaining and can maybe show why people don't treat all "criticism" equally. A moral impetus can give criticism an extra zeal for extinguishing the undesirable and that makes people uncomfortable in a way criticisms over bad animations or weapon balance don't (hence the real reason people make the same old "artistic integrity" arguments and such).
Does this look like a game about female representation?
Looks more like fujoshi stuff to me. In fact, I was out shopping with my family and despite her not owning either a PS4 or XBox One my sister still bought a copy of that issue because of the pretty boys on the cover.
C'mon people, it's better to look at games for how they are, not how we want them to be. If you look at everything critically, you'll become critical and that will turn you into a miserable person who looks for the negative in everything. If you don't like this game, there's always that game. If you don't like that game, there's that other game, or the game over there, or over there, or there, and don't forget that one!
Looks more like fujoshi stuff to me. In fact, I was out shopping with my family and despite her not owning either a PS4 or XBox One my sister still bought a copy of that issue because of the pretty boys on the cover.
C'mon people, it's better to look at games for how they are, not how we want them to be. If you look at everything critically, you'll become critical and that will turn you into a miserable person who looks for the negative in everything. If you don't like this game, there's always that game. If you don't like that game, there's that other game, or the game over there, or over there, or there, and don't forget that one!
Via Purifico
Banned
Nah, being critical can be a good thing.
Despite the Tekken thread on GAF being singled out as "too negative" they knew the series visually was getting stale so they gave all the characters new looks instead of recycling.
Criticism should be encouraged when in reason, if a base is paying for your product then some feedback should be taken into consideration.
But that doesn't mean you should let people control the overall vision of said product either.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Shrug
I never claimed social science findings were perfect, and I just posted the old link I had saved in my Papers library. Elizabeth's findings attracted debate, even on campus. But she was far from the only person making that claim.
The point was that this: "Games aren't real, Cidney is just a polygon mesh. Games aren't real, Cidney is just a polygon mesh."
Is the kind of thing an idiot says. What exact effect media has on our brains isn't nailed down, but there's no denying that it does have a real effect even if the games "aren't real."
How is it euphemistic?
I reckon this thread has enough stuff for a bullshit bingo by now. I just hope it makes it long enough for OP to finish her write up.
Yabberwocky
Member
OP, for some palate cleansing positivity with the FF ladies, this has made my week (month? year?) - World of Final Fantasy Tifa smashing out Final Heaven. EXPLOSION.
That's a bit of a frustrating shut down comment. You can still really enjoy something, without agreeing with all aspects of it. If we only look at things as they are, then nothing changes. It doesn't even have to be gender related, the subject matter could be gameplay, DLC, whatever. The same thing still applies.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's a bit of a frustrating shut down comment. You can still really enjoy something, without agreeing with all aspects of it. If we only look at things as they are, then nothing changes. It doesn't even have to be gender related, the subject matter could be gameplay, DLC, whatever. The same thing still applies.
Yeah, absolutely.
*I know this reply is very late, but I think it needs to be said anyway*
I'm not a fan of Lightning, I don't actually like her very much. But you have to admit that the reaction and hate towards her is a bit over-dramatic, she's basically a female Cloud, and Cloud is a revered character.
Hell, she actually has more character than Cloud. There's definitely a double standard and some sexism involved (don't kill me, I'm not saying everyone that doesn't like her is sexist, only the double standard).
OP, for some palate cleansing positivity with the FF ladies, this has made my week (month? year?) - World of Final Fantasy Tifa smashing out Final Heaven. EXPLOSION.
.
HOLY SHIT.
They aren't anywhere near the same besides basic design similarities.
Sure, Lightning is a more developed character. Cloud is one of the most underdeveloped protagonists in the series, despite the huge amount of media he's appeared in.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I don't think sexism is really the issue.
Even if we accept the idea that Lightning is a female Cloud and is well written, which I don't necessarily accept, Cloud is revered because he was in a good game. Lightning is disregarded because she was in a mediocre one. There's not too much there to pull apart.
soooo kawaiiOP, for some palate cleansing positivity with the FF ladies, this has made my week (month? year?) - World of Final Fantasy Tifa smashing out Final Heaven. EXPLOSION.
I'm not saying the dislike towards her is mainly because of sexism, only that it's a small factor. She's not a very well written character, but the vitriol is very disproportional compared to the example given (Cloud).
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Like I said, if all things were equal and they were in games of a similar caliber, I might think it was disproportionate. But she's in a strikingly mediocre one, and I don't think it's shocking that people's dislike of the game bleeds over into a dislike of the heroine, especially when it spawned a trilogy of games that many people were never interested in.
The fact of the matter is, she's not enough to carry a game,and neither are her cast mates. Cloud and his cast are. About the long and short of it.
Don't people hate Lightning because they hate XIII, hate the XIII trilogy, the way she is used so much these days, etc.? I never thought the issue was that she's not what people want from a woman.
Idk I never played XIII. Always thought her original design looked cool; the ones in the sequels looked stupid. Don't know jack about what she is like in the games though. I don't hate her.
Also, Cloud would be a lot more annoying if VII weren't goofy, he didn't open up, etc. Like I don't give Squall a free pass because he's a man. Guy F'n sucks.
Idk I never played XIII. Always thought her original design looked cool; the ones in the sequels looked stupid. Don't know jack about what she is like in the games though. I don't hate her.
Also, Cloud would be a lot more annoying if VII weren't goofy, he didn't open up, etc. Like I don't give Squall a free pass because he's a man. Guy F'n sucks.
I like Lightning, personally, but maybe that's just because of my affinity for take-charge female characters. Not a fan of the direction they went with her in the sequels, but I thought she was fine in the first one. Imo, it was the messy plot surrounding her that was the problem. But I also like Squall, so maybe I'm just weird. lol
I don't need to play FFXV to know that it is a male dominated game made by male gaze lovers for male gaze lovers. This is not a critique so much as a descriptive fact. Watching Kingsglaive just reinforces that point. Women serve only to be foils for men or as objects and targets. The men are the doers, the women are the supporters. Luna is a strong willed character as Tabata says. It's true. But it is also true that the only way Tabata feels he needs to express that strong will is by showing her abused, chased, disrespected, and used by men... only to continue to stand firm so she can.... support a man.
Remember, behind every successful man, there is a woman! But she's still behind.
Remember, behind every successful man, there is a woman! But she's still behind.
I understand that, I'm not a fan of either Cloud or Lightning as characters either. And I vastly prefer FFVII to XIII. I'm talking about the reaction towards the characters specifically, not the games.
I know a lot of people don't like Lightning for perfectly valid reasons, and I agree with most of those, but you can't say the reaction isn't a bit over-dramatic.
Neoleo2143
Member
Lightning to me came across as an unsympathetic psychopath. She's a character who both figuratively and literally loses her emotions.
To me, this sort of character doesn't deserve to be called in the same breath as the word "heroine".
There's also the fact that none of the characters in FF13 convey any real agency in its narrative. Now this could have been utilized to draw attention to an interesting meta concept. On a meta level, no written character actually has agency, but this was never explored within the narrative.
RedAssedApe
Banned
OP, for some palate cleansing positivity with the FF ladies, this has made my week (month? year?) - World of Final Fantasy Tifa smashing out Final Heaven. EXPLOSION.
disgusting
ly cute