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[StoppedInTracks]

Does this look like a game about female representation?

Looks more like fujoshi stuff to me. In fact, I was out shopping with my family and despite her not owning either a PS4 or XBox One my sister still bought a copy of that issue because of the pretty boys on the cover.

C'mon people, it's better to look at games for how they are, not how we want them to be. If you look at everything critically, you'll become critical and that will turn you into a miserable person who looks for the negative in everything. If you don't like this game, there's always that game. If you don't like that game, there's that other game, or the game over there, or over there, or there, and don't forget that one!

Deus Ex 2 rated?

Eww...

 

[YankeeDonB]

I agree with you on this, there should be a diverse range of female characters. I think part of the problem is that we don't get a huge amount of female protagonists, and when we do, she is has to represent the entire population of women, or at least be aspirational in some way.

I have been guilty of it myself in the past, when I see a strong woman, I feel a sense of pride and I'm happy to see it represented in popular culture. There is an element of 'see, that's what us women can do'. But it also places al lot of pressure and expectation on female characters, she can't be all things to all people, if she was, she would be super bland. I've now moved on to expect not only strength, but depth of character. (Which I feel Lightning lacks btw, to me she is a walking checklist of 'female empowerment' with not much else).

I agree with everything you're saying here. Except that I don't think Lightning is JUST an unwitting caricature of female empowerment. She's never fully developed (thanks to the horrible plotting of the game), but she's got a darkly humorous and cynical edge. It comes out more in Lightning Returns I guess, but it's still there in XIII. I actually found her kind of hilarious (in a dry way) a lot of the time. Until the everything is rainbows Deus Ex Machina ending in XIII, she's actually got a very realistic view of the limits of personal agency, and she's always cutting through all the frilly BS that accretes into the stories people tell themselves about why they acted the way they acted. She's a materialist/pragmatist/individualist in a series (and genre) renowned for spiritualist/dualist/communalists.

In a lot of ways she reminds me of Geralt, who I also found hilarious much of the time (and who is obviously in a much better written game, at least w/ W3).

 

[Trace]

I wonder when OP will get to Shiva...

But seriously Japanese anime and video games are behind the times when it comes to decent female representation. It's gotten to the point where I just laugh and shit talk it.

It's not just anime and video games. Walk onto a train in Japan and you see ads for gravure magazines hanging from the ceiling. It's weird.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I think MoonFrog's post gets to the heart of what we want for characters in general, which is for them to be well-written.

And when we look at what we've seen of FFXV so far, and how Tabata & co. talk about women, there's little reason to believe that Cindy or Luna will be well written.

 

[opulent_lemon]

Sexism doesn't have to be malicious. It's often subconscious or even preferential in our society - in games, in movies, in other media - to "toss out" a female character or never use them if they're older than 40. Actresses complain about this all the time, how middle-aged male actors can get work well into their golden years, while female actresses find their roles dry up over time as they age and become "less pretty", tying their "worth" as actresses to their beauty and not their ability.

And we see it constantly in games. Middle aged men are everywhere in leading roles in games - Splinter Cell, The Last of Us, God of War, etc. - but you'll rarely find a middle aged woman in video games in a starring role (or women in general in starring roles).

I'm still rolling my eyes over Soul Calibur V getting rid of Taki because "she's too old" according to the developers, yet her male counterparts are still there. She got replaced with a young, hip new substitute. The only reason Ivy stuck around is because they came up with some BS excuse that her blood keeps her eternally young. This happens constantly that if a game advances in years, their women are frozen in time (sometimes literally). Nina and Anna in Tekken? Frozen in stasis so that after twenty years they're still youthful. Aya Brea in Parasite Eve? Her unique biology keeps her perpetually locked in her twenties. Samara's a 1000 year old Asari matriarch? Looks like a statuesque model regardless. The "1000 year old dragon" is a ridiculous trope at this point, but if a woman ages naturally, she's often written out of the games at a certain point, even as her male counterparts continue.

We have had a few recent examples that have broken the mold. Ana in Overwatch is a breath of fresh air, and Mortal Kombat shockingly decided it was okay to not just age Sonya Blade into the mid-40s divorcee mother she became, but LOOK like she aged into a middle-aged mom as well and STILL kept her front and center in the combat and gameplay.

None of that really proves anything. My statement still stands. No piece of media is obligated to equally portray all genders/ages/body types etc. If a video game wants to portray a world with all young and sexy people that's perfectly legitimate and is not inherently sexist.

 

[Dark_castle]

Going to re-post this:

-Female characters do not need to be strong. This idea that all female characters should be role models of some sort that we should be able to look up to is an idea that is damaging to female representation. Being human doesn't mean being strong and male characters have the advantage of being able to be all sorts of disgusting without being labeled as sexist representations that should be excised from fiction. Female characters should be given the room to breathe, to be completely wrong, weak, to not 'rise above what society would have them be, etc.' The issue is when female characters are presented as intrinsically not human in the ways men are.

Re: The Lightning discussion above: I don't know the details, I avoided FFXIII from the feedback it received, but the idea that a character giving up and throwing a tantrum makes her a bad character because she is a woman is stupid. Male characters do that in anime/JRPG all the time and need their strength from their friends to pick themselves back up. She might be a badly written, annoying character but female characters should be allowed moments of weakness and we should be allowed to see them as such without shouting 'this is sexist. No woman is weak like that! Fuck this drivel!' or recasting it as truly a moment of strength.

Female characters get put into this box because we are all on edge about what they are saying (not without good reason) and this harms character drama surrounding female characters. A female character runs the very real risk of having her character totally ignored in favor of seeing her as an avatar of all women. Suddenly, it all needs to be girl powah or it is sexist trash.

And I'm open to a female character being made weak because she is female and there being a lack of humanity in her character. I just don't think that the kneejerk reaction that all weakness in female characters is sexist is a healthy reaction or good for bringing the level of female characters to that of male characters in mainstream fiction.

+1 to this.

I too think that females shouldn't be strong either physically or mentally just because of some conception that it's "sexist" for females to be portrayed as weak compared to male counterpart. Most importantly I think it's better for the writers to have full, creative freedom to write whatever type of female characters they want, not conform to the society pressure/expectations of wanting more "strong" female characters in their games. You just have to write a good character, and a good character can even be a complete weakling who doesn't fight at all or even have flaws that makes them weak minded. It's all about writing.

 

[Garlador]

None of that really proves anything. My statement still stands. No piece of media is obligated to equally portray all genders/ages/body types etc. If a video game wants to portray a world with all young and sexy people that's perfectly legitimate and is not inherently sexist.

... Anyone else want to take this one? This is... quite the baffling statement.

Intentionally creating a world where women are exclusively young and sexy and can't be anything else is absolutely and entirely inherently sexist. It's been THE status quo in gaming for ages, in fact, and it's why so many people are pushing back against it recently. It's a skewed and sexist approach to women that needs to evolve and progress.

Going to re-post this:

-Female characters do not need to be strong. This idea that all female characters should be role models of some sort that we should be able to look up to is an idea that is damaging to female representation. Being human doesn't mean being strong and male characters have the advantage of being able to be all sorts of disgusting without being labeled as sexist representations that should be excised from fiction. Female characters should be given the room to breathe, to be completely wrong, weak, to not 'rise above what society would have them be, etc.' The issue is when female characters are presented as intrinsically not human in the ways men are.

Re: The Lightning discussion above: I don't know the details, I avoided FFXIII from the feedback it received, but the idea that a character giving up and throwing a tantrum makes her a bad character because she is a woman is stupid. Male characters do that in anime/JRPG all the time and need their strength from their friends to pick themselves back up. She might be a badly written, annoying character but female characters should be allowed moments of weakness and we should be allowed to see them as such without shouting 'this is sexist. No woman is weak like that! Fuck this drivel!' or recasting it as truly a moment of strength.

Female characters get put into this box because we are all on edge about what they are saying (not without good reason) and this harms character drama surrounding female characters. A female character runs the very real risk of having her character totally ignored in favor of seeing her as an avatar of all women. Suddenly, it all needs to be girl powah or it is sexist trash.

And I'm open to a female character being made weak because she is female and there being a lack of humanity in her character. I just don't think that the kneejerk reaction that all weakness in female characters is sexist is a healthy reaction or good for bringing the level of female characters to that of male characters in mainstream fiction.

Here's the thing with Lightning. I don't think she's a good character REGARDLESS of gender. Her character, personality, and narrative arc is poorly executed, regressive, and pretty much sucks for the majority of her screen time throughout the FFXIII trilogy. But her portrayal as a "strong female protagonist" becomes blatantly ridiculous by the third game where a prominent game mechanic is to dress her up in various skimpy fetish-wear, regardless of her established personality traits and personal history.

(Oh yeah, that's totally what Lightning would pick out for herself to wear into combat...)

It's not helped by the fact the game developers outright stated the director personally requested her chest made bigger and that it be given more jiggle.

Lightning is a bad character because she's weak or strong, physically or emotionally, but because her actual story arc is pathetic and she suffers constant character regression over the course of the games. Lessons she learns in one installment she unlearns in another. Friendships she forges in one game are forgotten in another. Personality growth she experiences in one installment are undone in the next. THAT is what makes her a bad character. Even as the developers ratcheted up her power levels and abilities, to the point of making her a universe-shaping goddess, her actual personality and character development get stunted and cut off time and again, creating a frustrating character that is static, even regressive, in personal evolution not matter how powerful the games make her become.

Her being immature is not a "flaw". Her being immature and then failing to properly grow out of it over and over IS a flaw. Her being cold and distant isn't a "flaw". Her warming up and developing into a softer, nicer person, only for future games to yank all that development away, IS a flaw. Her being powerful is not a flaw. Her developers confusing rising power levels for character evolution IS a flaw.

She has a ridiculously poor character arc, regardless of her gender. But her gender becomes an issue front and center by the third game, where players start sticking her in skin-tight fetishwear and the developers are actively and publicly declaring their desire to sex her up some more and make her bustier and jigglier.

 

[opulent_lemon]

But there is a much more diverse amount of male body types and ages than female. Again, there's no female character who's as old as Cid, and if there is, she likely hasn't aged a day and looks as young as Luna because reasons, in fact, the newest trailer implies that as Gentiana doesn't look a day older than she does in that flashback. Gaming in general has an issue with this and FF is no different.

video games aren't obligated to equality represent all body types/ages/genders etc. Simply because there happens to be less old/young/ugly/etc. females doesn't make it inherently sexist.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I think MoonFrog's post gets to the heart of what we want for characters in general, which is for them to be well-written.

And when we look at what we've seen of FFXV so far, and how Tabata & co. talk about women, there's little reason to believe that Cindy or Luna will be well written.

Tabata and Ofuji aren't writing the game though. Also, Tabata hasn't talked much about women. Outside of that brief and awkward exchange w/ Ofuji in the ATR where Ofuji says that it's weird people are complaining about Cindy and also asking for more female characters, all Tabata's really said on the topic of women is that "Luna is very strong, believe us!" which is basically meaningless.

The writing for Luna in Kingslgaive isn't great (nor for any character). But... also a different writer from the game.

We've seen almost nothing of Luna's dialogue in game, so, while it's always fair to critique marketing decisions, it would still seem premature to write-off the writing.

Do I think it will be great coming from the Dissida writer? No. But I'm willing to wait on see on that front.

Cindy's representation looks quite bad. But in terms of Luna's agency or writing or "strength" (however one wants to operationalize that), there's a real rush to prejudgment in this thread and others.

 

[Jennipeg]

I agree with everything you're saying here. Except that I don't think Lightning is JUST an unwitting caricature of female empowerment. She's never fully developed (thanks to the horrible plotting of the game), but she's got a darkly humorous and cynical edge. It comes out more in Lightning Returns I guess, but it's still there in XIII. I actually found her kind of hilarious (in a dry way) a lot of the time. Until the everything is rainbows Deus Ex Machina ending in XIII, she's actually got a very realistic view of the limits of personal agency, and she's always cutting through all the frilly BS that accretes into the stories people tell themselves about why they acted the way they acted. She's a materialist/pragmatist/individualist in a series (and genre) renowned for spiritualist/dualist/communalists.

In a lot of ways she reminds me of Geralt, who I also found hilarious much of the time (and who is obviously in a much better written game, at least w/ W3).

That's true, I did like that about her. I think i'm hard on Lightning because the game she is in has so many issues. She is a potentially good character let down by everything that surrounds her. She was marketed as the 'female Cloud' but I think she is far more like Squall, with similar personal issues resulting from loss of family. But I think Squall is so much more developed, I think his initial personality is earned, whereas Lightning's backstory is explained in a throwaway scene with Hope, it just makes her character arc feel a bit hollow.

 

[PolishQ]

None of that really proves anything. My statement still stands. No piece of media is obligated to equally portray all genders/ages/body types etc. If a video game wants to portray a world with all young and sexy people that's perfectly legitimate and is not inherently sexist.

You're saying two different things.

Are games obligated to not be sexist? Well, there's a growing cultural expectation that they not be sexist, but it's true that the developers are free to be as sexist (consciously or not) as their publishers allow them to be.

Is a game sexist if its male characters are allowed to be old and ugly but its female characters can only be young and sexy? Barring some hypothetical game that used this as its central plot premise, yes!

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Who do we even blame for Cindy? Her character designer, the director, the script writer? Other? Who comes up with the pitch and who gets final say whether it gets added in?

It's really hard to tell with Square: Matsuno sure as hell didn't want Vaan in FFXII, but some higher-ups forced him to include him and replace Basch as the main character.

Actually Matsuno did want Vaan in the game. Vaan was always going to be in the game, just not originally as the main character. Originally he was a party member called Aqua with White Mage abilities.

It's not like Matsuno hates young characters on principle. Ramza and Delita are some of his most beloved characters among fans.

 

[opulent_lemon]

... Anyone else want to take this one? This is... quite the baffling statement.

Intentionally creating a world where women are exclusively young and sexy and can't be anything else is absolutely and entirely inherently sexist. It's been THE status quo in gaming for ages, in fact, and it's why so many people are pushing back against it recently. It's a skewed and sexist approach to women that needs to evolve and progress.

I think we may have different definitions of sexist. As long as the characters are actually developed and not simply one-dimensional eye candy then they can be as sexy as they want and it's not sexist. It remains to be seen if, in this particular context, these female characters are adequately developed.
To speculate on the reason why there is a lack of diverse representation of non-sexy, non-young females in 'main' roles in games it's easy to guess it's because publishers don't think that will sell....and that's because they probably think nobody's ideal fantasy world is filled with ugly old people. Spoiler alert: Most people enjoy looking at sexy people. It's simple. It doesn't have to be automatically sexist.

 

[YankeeDonB]

That's true, I did like that about her. I think i'm hard on Lightning because the game she is in has so many issues. She is a potentially good character let down by everything that surrounds her. She was marketed as the 'female Cloud' but I think she is far more like Squall, with similar personal issues resulting from loss of family. But I think Squall is so much more developed, I think his initial personality is earned, whereas Lightning's backstory is explained in a throwaway scene with Hope, it just makes her character arc feel a bit hollow.

Yeah, I'm with you on all this. Much more in the Squall than Cloud vein.

I think there was a potentially interesting character in Lightning, just as there was a potentially interesting plot with potentially interesting themes in XIII, but execution was so poor you have to go digging for it.

 

[opulent_lemon]

You're saying two different things.

Are games obligated to not be sexist? Well, there's a growing cultural expectation that they not be sexist, but it's true that the developers are free to be as sexist (consciously or not) as their publishers allow them to be.

Is a game sexist if its male characters are allowed to be old and ugly but its female characters can only be young and sexy? Barring some hypothetical game that used this as its central plot premise, yes!

As long as those characters are fully developed and not just eye candy, it's not sexist. What you're saying is that if any given video game does not equally portray all ages/genders even if it's not what the artist intended it's automatically sexist. There's some flaws in that logic.

 

[Dark_castle]

I think MoonFrog's post gets to the heart of what we want for characters in general, which is for them to be well-written.

And when we look at what we've seen of FFXV so far, and how Tabata & co. talk about women, there's little reason to believe that Cindy or Luna will be well written.

Cindy? Yeah, fat chance. She's a lost cause from day one, like how do anyone even take this character seriously with how she dresses.

Luna though, it's a wait and see. I'm not bothered with the fact that Luna seems to be a damsel in distress like most people are, but I am kinda confused by the insistence of the developers on making us believe that Luna is a strong female character, stronger than the beloved Stella even, yet what we've seen so far had been sending mixed messages about Luna. Often she's causing problems for others (in Kingsglaive), or getting abused, and sometimes she's like a superwoman fighting off a Leviathan. I find it hard to identify her character, her personality and how she plays out in the big picture of the plot. This COULD be a sign of an interesting multi-dimensional character with multiple facets of personal flaws and attributes as well as positive ones. Or a character with no proper direction or vision placed on it, resulting in a confusing, mixed bag character.

You know, Luna kind of reminds me of Celes, who too have a tragic background and grows up in the enemy side, but decides to rebel and joins the party. But for Celes, I think she benefited from multiple ways, first she's a playable character, so player can be more invested in the character and her growth, and she also gets "promoted" as the defacto protagonist in the second half of the game with a lot of character development moment, one that is quite emotional and impactful. Would Luna receive the same treatment? I doubt that...

 

[Garlador]

I think we may have different definitions of sexist. As long as the characters are actually developed and not simply one-dimensional eye candy then they can be as sexy as they want and it's not sexist.

This is not true in the slightest.

Here's an Oxford dictionary definition for you:

Sexism - prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

A character can be developed and well-written and STILL BE SEXIST. The two are not mutually exclusive.

It remains to be seen if, in this particular context, these female characters are adequately developed.

We don't know for sure, true... but we do have the track record of the company and the people involved in the project.

Tabata directed The 3rd Birthday, which is one of the most nauseatingly sexist games I have ever had the displeasure to experience.

To speculate on the reason why there is a lack of diverse representation of non-sexy, non-young females in 'main' roles in games it's easy to guess it's because publishers don't think that will sell....and that's because they probably think nobody's ideal fantasy world is filled with ugly old people.

"Ugly people" seems to involve women over the age of 30 in many of these games. It's ridiculous and also a huge double-standard, especially when MEN get to have protagonists in games ranging from middle-aged dads to overweight plumbers.

Spoiler alert: Most people enjoy looking at sexy people. It's simple. It doesn't have to be automatically sexist.

Sexy=/=Sexist

Watch some more Feminist Frequency. Being pretty isn't the sole issue here, but when women are ONLY allowed to be sexy, and developers block and balk at anything outside of this ridiculous standard, you bet your ass it's sexist.

 

[Jennipeg]

I think we may have different definitions of sexist. As long as the characters are actually developed and not simply one-dimensional eye candy then they can be as sexy as they want and it's not sexist. It remains to be seen if, in this particular context, these female characters are adequately developed.
To speculate on the reason why there is a lack of diverse representation of non-sexy, non-young females in 'main' roles in games it's easy to guess it's because publishers don't think that will sell....and that's because they probably think nobody's ideal fantasy world is filled with ugly old people. Spoiler alert: Most people enjoy looking at sexy people. It's simple. It doesn't have to be automatically sexist.

I think its just going to take a publisher brave enough to really test this theory. 'Will a game really suffer sales wise because the characters aren't sexy?'. The Last of Us did ok, I can't think of any 'sexy' characters there, they aren't ugly by any means but they are more relatable for sure.

I don't argue that most people like looking at sexy people, but women have coped with playing games containing old men, surely men can accept older women?

 

[OrionX]

That's true, I did like that about her. I think i'm hard on Lightning because the game she is in has so many issues. She is a potentially good character let down by everything that surrounds her. She was marketed as the 'female Cloud' but I think she is far more like Squall, with similar personal issues resulting from loss of family. But I think Squall is so much more developed, I think his initial personality is earned, whereas Lightning's backstory is explained in a throwaway scene with Hope, it just makes her character arc feel a bit hollow.

Agreed. Maybe that's why I like Lightning, because I've always liked Squall. And maybe I like her more for the potential of her character than what we actually got in the game, because I do agree that her story needed more depth and development. Considering that the main theme of her game seemed to be about fighting against one's fate/destiny, it seemed like Lightning was meant to be a character who was desperate to exert control over her life, to a point that it began to hinder her more than help by making her closed off and jaded.

Now that I think about it, XV's theme seems to be about accepting fate, what with Noctis' whole chosen one/future king thing, and Luna constantly talking about destiny in Kingsglaive. Versus XIII indeed.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Tabata and Ofuji aren't writing the game though. Also, Tabata hasn't talked much about women. Outside of that brief and awkward exchange w/ Ofuji in the ATR where Ofuji says that it's weird people are complaining about Cindy and also asking for more female characters, all Tabata's really said on the topic of women is that "Luna is very strong, believe us!" which is basically meaningless.

Sure, and all of this discussion comes from the insistence on Luna being a "strong" character. And part of how they "talk" about women is actually that...they don't. So there's no indication that they know what they're doing.

The writing for Luna in Kingslgaive isn't great (nor for any character). But... also a different writer from the game.

Fair, but Tabata is a producer on Kingsglaive. So it's not like he didn't have any input on what Hasegawa was writing, given that it's feeding into his game.

We've seen almost nothing of Luna's dialogue in game, so, while it's always fair to critique marketing decisions, it would still seem premature to write-off the writing.

Marketing often speaks to what a character will be. Add in a very trope-ish character design, and we're getting into the territory of "well if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and is presented like a duck..."

Do I think it will be great coming from the Dissida writer? No. But I'm willing to wait on see on that front.

Man, why'd you need to remind me that's who's writing it.

Cindy's representation looks quite bad. But in terms of Luna's agency or writing or "strength" (however one wants to operationalize that), there's a real rush to prejudgment in this thread and others.

Shrug

Duckroll already covered this fairly well to me:

I don't need to play FFXV to know that it is a male dominated game made by male gaze lovers for male gaze lovers. This is not a critique so much as a descriptive fact. Watching Kingsglaive just reinforces that point. Women serve only to be foils for men or as objects and targets. The men are the doers, the women are the supporters. Luna is a strong willed character as Tabata says. It's true. But it is also true that the only way Tabata feels he needs to express that strong will is by showing her abused, chased, disrespected, and used by men... only to continue to stand firm so she can.... support a man.

Remember, behind every successful man, there is a woman! But she's still behind.

I don't feel like I need to play the game to see where this is headed.

 

[DoomGaze]

If a character is sexualized, so what?

 

[opulent_lemon]

Here's an Oxford dictionary definition for you:

Sexism - prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

A character can be developed and well-written and STILL BE SEXIST. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm confused. Are you talking about the portrayal of sexism? One could create a well-developed, abusive husband character and that character themselves would be sexist but I don't think that's what your referring to. Please enlighten me.

Watch some more Feminist Frequency.

No thanks.


So in a homogenized world where every video game ever has equal representation of all genders/ages etc. and one game comes along that has a bunch of young 20-something men and no women... that game is automatically sexist simply because it decided not to portray any other genders/ages? I'm legitimately trying to understand your point of view.

 

[Garlador]

If a character is sexualized, so what?

... my blood is boiling over this statement, especially personally knowing women quite close to me who are the victims of sex abuses and sexual harassment.

I hope it was a joke. If not... well, I don't want to get banned here, but I'd have some very choice words I'd say.

I'm confused. Are you talking about the portrayal of sexism? One could create a well-developed, abusive husband character and that character themselves would be sexist but I don't think that's what your referring to. Please enlighten me.

A woman can be a well-developed character that still falls victim to stereotyping and gender biases. The two are not mutually exclusive. For example, I love Samus Aran as a female character in the Metroid titles, but it's still sexist that the reward for the players upon completion of the game is for her to take off more and more of her armor and show off her figure, or to stick her in ridiculous high heels, or to make her chest larger and larger and larger every installment.

Or another example might be how Yuna is a phenomenal Final Fantasy heroine, and yet the developers decided to "sex her up" in the sequel, stick her in booty shorts, and make her misadventures about dressing up in increasingly impractical costumes. Or how Ashe is a great heroine in FFXII, despite the designers giving her the shortest micro skirt ever, to the point you can even see her butt cheeks poking out from it in marketing material. It's still sexist.

("watch some Feminist Frequency"). No, thanks.

So you have zero interest in actually learning about why women and feminists might have problems? I mean, I don't agree with everything she says, but she makes plenty of valid points that many veterans in the games industry sound off on and agree with.

So in a homogenized world where every video game ever has equal representation of all genders/ages etc. and one game comes along that has a bunch of young 20-something men and no women... that game is automatically sexist simply because it decided not to portray any other genders/ages? I'm legitimately trying to understand your point of view.

Let me know when this world of homogenized video games of perfect equality exist, rather than the harsh reality of women struggling against centuries of gender bias and discrimination.

 

[opulent_lemon]

If a character is sexualized, so what?

That's what I want to know.

 

[PolishQ]

As long as those characters are fully developed and not just eye candy, it's not sexist. What you're saying is that if any given video game does not equally portray all ages/genders even if it's not what the artist intended it's automatically sexist. There's some flaws in that logic.

If the female characters are fully developed, it's BETTER, or perhaps "less sexist", but if the author is treating the female characters differently based solely on their sex, that is by definition sexist.

Let's get real -- sexist elements can be found in nearly every game. It's okay for you to admit this. It doesn't mean you have to stop playing them. But we as a community should be championing games that handle the issue better than the competition, and calling games out when they don't. I'm still going to play FFXV and probably have fun, even if I cringe once in a while. But it would nice if FFXVI was less cringe-inducing, and that's only going to happen if we say something.

(I'll also note that as men, you and I have the luxury of only having to cringe. Try putting yourself in a woman's shoes and think about what it's like to constantly see this kind of thing in games.)

 

[opulent_lemon]

I think its just going to take a publisher brave enough to really test this theory. 'Will a game really suffer sales wise because the characters aren't sexy?'. The Last of Us did ok, I can't think of any 'sexy' characters there, they aren't ugly by any means but they are more relatable for sure.

I don't argue that most people like looking at sexy people, but women have coped with playing games containing old men, surely men can accept older women?

I'm sure they could. As long as gameplay does not suffer for the sake of pandering to

Spoiler

SJWs

I, for one, would absolutely welcome it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

If a character is sexualized, so what?

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh

No thanks.


So in a homogenized world where every video game ever has equal representation of all genders/ages etc. and one game comes along that has a bunch of young 20-something men and no women... that game is automatically sexist simply because it decided not to portray any other genders/ages? I'm legitimately trying to understand your point of view.

Yes, equality and inclusiveness is just SO boringly homogenized. /s And no, context matters, this game ISN'T just all men and no women, it has women, and their getting shafted in favor of male characters and a demographic of 18-35 year old men. Expand your horizons on why equality and inclusiveness is a good thing for he game's industry instead of trying to defend really blatant examples of sexism. It's EXTREMELY telling that Cindy was the only sexualized game character shown onstage at e3 this year, in the most cringeworthy way as an incentive to purchase VR. Even the summons are pretty sexist, we got, an ancient elven wizard wearing a cloak, a buff as hell titan, a sea serpent, and....a scantily clad busty woman with a remarkably similar face to other women in the game. ???? That's what they came up with?

 

[PtM]

As long as those characters are fully developed and not just eye candy, it's not sexist. What you're saying is that if any given video game does not equally portray all ages/genders even if it's not what the artist intended it's automatically sexist. There's some flaws in that logic.

That's not what they're saying.

 

[wuth]

If a character is sexualized, so what?

The issue is that women are predominantly sexualized in games. Why this is bad is largely related to the context by which they are sexualized, but at the end of the day its also just garbage character design and writing.

I want complex, well designed and well written characters. Not the adolescent fantasies of a small, vocal minority of otaku.

 

[Dark_castle]

... my blood is boiling over this statement, especially personally knowing women quite close to me who are the victims of sex abuses and sexual harassment.

I hope it was a joke. If not... well, I don't want to get banned here, but I'd have some very choice words I'd say.

The thing is, character sexualization doesn't quite equate to a character literally being sexually abused or harassed. It's actually quite a different subject. It's completely possible for a female character to be wearing revealing outfits and yet never actually abused by a man. BUT, for me I much prefer a more tasteful approach to sexualization of female character.

One is the appearance and perceived age range of the character. Japanese love for lolis and putting them in skimpy outfits continue to utterly disgusts me. Second, overdoing the sexy look. Cidney revealed quite abit too much of her skin IMO, and it's more like a trashy look than actual, "classy" sexy for me. Third, context. I know Cidney lives in an area where it's hot, but she being a car mechanic, you would expect her to be well covered to protect her from the skin injuries and such. What's the point of revealing the bosoms? It's complete needless pandering, just like how the random shots showing her butt facing the camera. I would be more accepting of sexualization where it makes more sense, like say a scene of them hanging out at the beach, where female characters are naturally wearing in their bikinis and such to swim and stuff.

I also don't object sex scenes in video games, or nudity, as ironic as that sounds. It's all about how you present them, the context, the execution. All of it comes into play.

 

[Adaren]

Her being immature is not a "flaw". Her being immature and then failing to properly grow out of it over and over IS a flaw. Her being cold and distant isn't a "flaw". Her warming up and developing into a softer, nicer person, only for future games to yank all that development away, IS a flaw. Her being powerful is not a flaw. Her developers confusing rising power levels for character evolution IS a flaw.

I tend to think that Lightning's character actually shows a fair amount of growth in LR. She has frequent, wistful retrospectives on various events and characters from the previous games. Her concern for Sarah is unchanged, but she tend to funnel that concern into effecting positive change instead of falling into hopeless anger. She's still somewhat cold and distant, but it tends to manifest itself as a cynical wit instead of violent outbursts.

I consider this a bit of a tangent, though, because even if Lightning's a poorly written character (and no doubt she is at times), her role in her games draws a sharp contrast with Luna. Luna often looks as though she's playing second fiddle for Noctis (hoping to fulfill his destiny, being his betrothed, etc.). At least from the trailers, there doesn't seem to be any distinction between her motivations and his.

Contrast that with the XIII ladies: Lightning and Vanille split the role of main character between themselves. Fang is the most independent character of the main cast. None of them feel like they're a mere companion or sidekick of any of the other characters, let alone the male ones. Likewise, in XIII-2, Serah and Noel are dual protagonists. While Serah is the less experienced member of the group, she has her own motivations that are front-and-center in the game's plot. Her goals drive the group forward.

The XII games don't always have great character arcs, and they don't always have the best visual characterization (Serah's XIII-2 outfit, Lightning's XIII-2 thigh window, ugh), but they at least tried to create female characters who feel like more than stepping stones for the storylines of other characters. Maybe (hopefully) Luna / Gentiana / Cidney will feel like independent characters that have agency within their own stories, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[Jennipeg]

I'm sure they could. As long as gameplay does not suffer for the sake of pandering to

Spoiler

SJWs

I, for one, would absolutely welcome it.

I could argue that they are pandering to a very specific market right now. Sex sells, and they are intentionally creating characters to satisfy their target market. Its what we are accustomed to. But I don't think it would be so bad to pander to a different demographic occasionally.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Sure, and all of this discussion comes from the insistence on Luna being a "strong" character. And part of how they "talk" about women is actually that...they don't. So there's no indication that they know what they're doing.

....


Duckroll already covered this fairly well to me:


I don't feel like I need to play the game to see where this is headed.

I don't strongly disagree with anything you're saying here, to be clear. I've just noticed a real tendency for many in the community to be very eager to rush to judgement on every facet of the game (doesn't have character action controls in an incomplete demo - combat is doomed; IQ is not great in early footage -- visual presentation of game is doomed; car drives itself -- entire game is on rails and sense of exploration is doomed; Duscae's geography is somewhat bland -- entire game will basically be a potato-world with no interesting features). It just goes on and on. It's hard not to read at least some of the complaints about Luna in the same vein, given how little we know about how she functions in the game.

As for Duckroll's dismissal of FF XV as irredeemably focused on male gaze, that also seems premature.

Cindy's outfit is absurd, true. So is Fran's and Ashe's in FF XII, Anne's outfit in P5 and Fie's in ToCS 2, and the sorceresses' in Witcher 3, and Kat's in Gravity Rush, and many of the female characters in Overwatch, and the the MC in Nier:A and on and on. That doesn't excuse Cindy, but she does seem to get a disproportionate amount of attention. From what we've seen so far, Luna's goals are supportive of Noctis' role as some kind of world savior. OK, literally every character in a game like P3 or P4 and ToCS is written around supporting and building up the main (male) character.

Would Duckroll also dismiss those games as expressly designed around stroking male ego w/ no other meaningful elements to characterization/plot?

Would all the folks who reliably complain about XV but also reliably wax poetic about those other games?

And I like Persona and Trails and The Witcher and Nier a lot. Not trying to start a fight on that front. But people seem quite willing to look past certain potential issues in other games in a way they do not for XV. Is that just due to the size of the franchise? Is that because recent games in those franchises have been relatively well written while the XIII saga wasn't? Those might be fair reasons, but I still find it curious.

 

[PolishQ]

SJWs

I'm talking to a 12 year old, aren't I.

 

[opulent_lemon]

A woman can be a well-developed character that still falls victim to stereotyping and gender biases. The two are not mutually exclusive. For example, I love Samus Aran as a female character in the Metroid titles, but it's still sexist that the reward for the players upon completion of the game is for her to take off more and more of her armor and show off her figure, or to stick her in ridiculous high heels, or to make her chest larger and larger and larger every installment.

Or another example might be how Yuna is a phenomenal Final Fantasy heroine, and yet the developers decided to "sex her up" in the sequel, stick her in booty shorts, and make her misadventures about dressing up in increasingly impractical costumes. Or how Ashe is a great heroine in FFXII, despite the designers giving her the shortest micro skirt ever, to the point you can even see her butt cheeks poking out from it in marketing material. It's still sexist.

again, just because a character is sexy does not automatically make them sexist. The reward for completing metroid is not necessarily samus taking off her armor it just so happens that's what she does at the end of the game. The reward is the completion of the game / mission but that's subjective and just me nit picking. Her taking her armor off could be viewed as challenging stereotypes because I'm sure the whole time a lot of people thought they were playing a male only to realize it was a badass female the whole time. I see nothing wrong with portraying what you claim to be well-developed characters in a sexy manner. If they were not sexy would that make it not sexist?

So you have zero interest in actually learning about why women and feminists might have problems? I mean, I don't agree with everything she says, but she makes plenty of valid points that many veterans in the games industry sound off on and agree with.

I am interested. That's why I'm engaging you here right now.

Let me know when this world of homogenized video games of perfect equality exist, rather than the harsh reality of women struggling against centuries of gender bias and discrimination.

That was a serious question. I'd really appreciate it if you took it seriously. It obviously is not the reality we live in but that seems to be the ideal reality you envision which is why I'm asking you to pretend like it does exist for a second so you can think about a game that would be commonplace in today's world being put in a context of the ideal world you seem to envision. I would like to politely ask you to revisit that hypothetical scenario I put to you.

 

[novabolt]

I'm black and I've seen the word cis associated with a black person, can some get me the gist of what it means? Wiki made it too complexed to understand.

 

[opulent_lemon]

I'm talking to a 12 year old, aren't I.

That's who's upset about all this, isn't it? But sure, insult me by calling me a child. I'm the immature one.

 

[PtM]

Please stop saying sex sells, because it doesn't. Sexualisation does.

again, just because a character is sexy does not automatically make them sexist. The reward for completing metroid is not necessarily samus taking off her armor it just so happens that's what she does at the end of the game. The reward is the completion of the game / mission but that's subjective and just me nit picking. Her taking her armor off could be viewed as challenging stereotypes because I'm sure the whole time a lot of people thought they were playing a male only to realize it was a badass female the whole time. I see nothing wrong with portraying what you claim to be well-developed characters in a sexy manner. If they were not sexy would that make it not sexist?
.

Yeah right, she just happens to undress more the better you finish the game, but of course.

 

[dramatis]

If a character is sexualized, so what?

That's what I want to know.

Do you two also say "so what" if there's a racist depiction?

I'm sure they could. As long as gameplay does not suffer for the sake of pandering to

Spoiler

SJWs

I, for one, would absolutely welcome it.

So pandering to the male otaku crowd is ok, but pandering to "SJWs" is not.

Contrast that with the XIII ladies: Lightning and Vanille split the role of main character between themselves. Fang is the most independent character of the main cast. None of them feel like they're a mere companion or sidekick of any of the other characters, let alone the male ones. Likewise, in XIII-2, Serah and Noel are dual protagonists. While Serah is the less experienced member of the group, she has her own motivations that are front-and-center in the game's plot.

I disagree that Fang was the most independent character. She's a creation for Vanille. Her story and motivations largely revolve around Vanille, which is disappointing.

 

[Gormless Noodle]

I'm black and I've seen the word cis associated with a black person, can some get me the gist of what it means? Wiki made it too complexed to understand.

Just identifying as the gender you were born as. If I understood correctly myself.

 

[Garlador]

I tend to think that Lightning's character actually shows a fair amount of growth in LR. She has frequent, wistful retrospectives on various events and characters from the previous games. Her concern for Sarah is unchanged, but she tend to funnel that concern into effecting positive change instead of falling into hopeless anger. She's still somewhat cold and distant, but it tends to manifest itself as a cynical wit instead of violent outbursts.

I consider this a bit of a tangent, though, since even if Lightning's a poorly written character (and no doubt she is at times), her role in her games draws a sharp contrast with Luna. Luna often looks as though she's playing second fiddle for Noctis (hoping to fulfill his destiny, being his betrothed, etc.). At least from the trailers, there doesn't seem to be any distinction between her motivations and his.

Contrast that with the XIII ladies: Lightning and Vanille split the role of main character between themselves. Fang is the most independent character of the main cast. None of them feel like they're a mere companion or sidekick of any of the other characters, let alone the male ones. Likewise, in XIII-2, Serah and Noel are dual protagonists. While Serah is the less experienced member of the group, she has her own motivations that are front-and-center in the game's plot.

The XII games don't always have great character arcs, and they don't always have the best visual characterization (Serah's outfit in XIII-2, XIII-2 Lightning's thigh window, ugh), but they at least tried to create female characters who feel like more than stepping stones for the storylines of other characters. Maybe (hopefully) Luna / Gentiana / Cidney will feel like independent characters that have agency within their own stories, but I'm not counting on it.

I agree.

I have my issues with Final Fantasy XIII, but at the VERY least I think that Lightning, Fang, Serah, and Vanille have a level of agency, pro-activity, and self-independence regardless of other men to a degree that nothing we've seen from Final Fantasy XV thus far.

I'm actually far tougher on Lightning and the crew of FFXIII over the execution of their stories, not necessarily the intentions behind them, and I fully acknowledge that Lightning DOES grow and change over the course of the games, which is why I get upset when so much of that growth is forgotten about or regressed during certain instances or scenarios.

The trailers for the game sum up Luna entirely. "I will be strong... for Noctis." Not for herself, not for her people or nation. She dedicates herself to being the support player of someone else. That truly does suck.

 

[opulent_lemon]

I could argue that they are pandering to a very specific market right now. Sex sells, and they are intentionally creating characters to satisfy their target market. Its what we are accustomed to. But I don't think it would be so bad to pander to a different demographic occasionally.

It might be really bad, too. It might turn out that the other target market you speak of is simply a vocal minority who don't actually give a shit about video games and sales would actually tank. Keyword: might. That's the risk publishers are avoiding.

 

[PolishQ]

I'm black and I've seen the word cis associated with a black person, can some get me the gist of what it means? Wiki made it too complexed to understand.

Cis is short for cisgendered, which is the opposite of transgendered. Cisgendered people identify as the gender they were assigned at birth.

 

[.JayZii]

I'm black and I've seen the word cis associated with a black person, can some get me the gist of what it means? Wiki made it too complexed to understand.

"Cis" is short for cisgender, which means "not transgender".

 

[Tyaren]

The nude male strapped to the hood of a car wouldnt go down smooth due to the majority of the peopel buying this game will be straight males, and to have nude men strapped to a car would probably a non selling product hahaha.

This doesnt mean there wont be one, who knows what DLC SE will bring us lol.

Alternate costume DLC like this? XD

 

[opulent_lemon]

Do you two also say "so what" if there's a racist depiction?

You're moving the goal posts. I'm more or less assuming the 'so what?' is meant to say what's wrong with them being sexy? which is what I would like to know.

So pandering to the male otaku crowd is ok, but pandering to "SJWs" is not.

I don't defend otaku games if they're legitimately bad games. Censorship on the other hand is a whole different conversation which we won't get into in this thread.

 

[novabolt]

Just identifying as the gender you were born as. If I understood correctly myself.

Cis is short for cisgendered, which is the opposite of transgendered. Cisgendered people identify as the gender they were assigned at birth.

"Cis" is short for cisgender, which means "not transgender".

Thank you guys for the explanation.

 

[OrionX]

Alternate costume DLC like this? XD

If this happens, I will forgive them for Cindy's questionable wardrobe choices. I demand equality in my fanservice, dammit!!

... I'm part of the problem, aren't I? lol

 

[SOLDIER]

I wonder when OP will get to Shiva...

But seriously Japanese anime and video games are behind the times when it comes to decent female representation. It's gotten to the point where I just laugh and shit talk it.

Anime probably has more female protagonists than any medium out there.

And yes, a large chunk of them aren't great, but you can also name a large chunk that are including Madoka Magica, Ghost in the Shell, Sailor Moon, Princess Tutu, Flying Witch, The Slayers and every Ghibli movie ever. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

[Garlador]

again, just because a character is sexy does not automatically make them sexist.

I already said that. That's not what we're discussing and that's not the problem we're addressing. Please stop confusing this as a "we hate sexy characters" discussion. It's not.

The reward for completing metroid is not necessarily samus taking off her armor it just so happens that's what she does at the end of the game.

This is bull. The better you play, the more she takes off. If it's just what she "natural does", it wouldn't be gated behind your gameplay performance. It's a reward plain and simple. The better and faster you clear the game, the more of her you get to see.

Her taking her armor off could be viewed as challenging stereotypes because I'm sure the whole time a lot of people thought they were playing a male only to realize it was a badass female the whole time.

Maybe for the first game... but twenty years later? It was common knowledge at that point she was a woman. The instruction booklets even stated this was the case by then.

I see nothing wrong with portraying what you claim to be well-developed characters in a sexy manner. If they were not sexy would that make it not sexist?

Good lord, it's like talking to a wall.

Samus being beautiful is not inherently sexist. Samus showing herself off EXCLUSIVELY for the player's gaze (presumed to be straight male) and being continually redesigned into increasingly inappropriate attire (high heels...) and the ENTIRELY of Metroid: Other M's narrative surrounding her (and those gender issues are inescapable in that game), all of that IS inherently sexist.

So let me repeat: "sexy" is not inherently "sexist", but CONTEXT MATTERS. A girl in a bkini on the beach isn't sexist. A girl designed to fight aliens only in a bikini IS sexist. You cannot ignore the context and intentions of the designers and their choices behind why they present a woman the way they do.

I am interested. That's why I'm engaging you here right now.

And I told you to get some more perspective. Check out those videos. Read the responses from veteran designers in the industry to those videos. Her statements are echoed by women in the games industry and even by male developers.

That was a serious question. I'd really appreciate it if you took it seriously. It obviously is not the reality we live in but that seems to be the ideal reality you envision which is why I'm asking you to pretend like it does exist for a second so you can think about a game that would be commonplace in today's world being put in a context of the ideal world you seem to envision. I would like to politely ask you to revisit that hypothetical scenario I put to you.

Your hypothetical scenario is unbelievably insulting and offensive to the millions of women who would love to live in that reality rather than the real-life scenarios of sexual harassment, rape, discrimination, inequality, and gender bias that they are CURRENTLY going through and have endured since the dawn of time. Really, I want you to know right now I take your statement seriously, and I want you to know, bluntly and clearly, that I find it derogatory and offensive.

But to answer your question, in a hypothetical scenario of equality where everyone gets equal and fair treatment, having a game that exclusively starred men wouldn't be inherently sexist, but if said game was like FFXV, where the women are beaten and exist only as peripherals to support the men, be rescued, and are "strong" only to make the men greater, then it would still be sexist.

You act like sexism doesn't also factor in men. While men tend to have it better in our world, there is an unhealthy sexism of machismo in many parts of the world, where men are expected to conform to the standards of being strong and masculine and shamed for enjoying or experiencing more "feminine" feelings or experiences. "You throw/hit/run like a girl" is still an insult culture tells men to avoid. Many gay men all over the world face this stigma to this very day. Even straight men who are just quiet, shy, or gentle can and have faced ridicule, and this is also unhealthy.

So, yes, your scenario would still be sexist, and I'll again state your argument to disregard all the sexism we currently face is just as offensive to me as asking me to disregard all the racism or xenophobia or homophobia minorities face.