I kinda feel like no one at Square Enix understands Tifa other than the people who specifically wrote for her character. They've consistently been so off about her (but then again, you can say the same for Aerith in the Compilation too).Not to mention that the scene is obviously being set up in an "aww yeah, catfight! Maybe they'll tear each other's clothes off and make out!" Sort of way.
Thinking back, almost every instance of FF marketing has focused on showing the lead heroine in some sort of peril in order to elicit cheap emotion.
Recall that at one point, THIS was an actual marketing image used in posters:
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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
TheGreatDirector
Banned
Exactly. I think we might have drawn the same conclusion about Celes in FFVI if the marketing machine back in the day kept showing us this scene before release:
But in the end after playing the game I don't think anyone really saw Celes as some sort of punching bag character
Pretty much.
The fact is, a good amount of the female characters in Final Fantasy have been damsels in distress at least in one part of the game they're in. That traces back all the way to FF1 with Princess Sarah being kidnapped by Garland. The fact is though that the majority of these women aren't remembered soley for the times they were damsels but rather the strong actions and roles they had in their respective games. Rydia's known for her badass skill as a summoner and a black mage, Celes is remembered for her strong redemption arc, etc.
As others have pointed out, the marketing has leaned heavily to showing very weak perspectives of the female characters in this game. Cidney is contantly sexualized in her clips; Luna has been shown looking rather passive, Gladio's sister is seen fawning over Noctis in the most exaggerated way. If they should more of these characters doing decisive things, Cidney showing off her mechanic skills in a non suggestive way, Luna doing more stuff like fighting off the Leviathan, we'd likely be receiving these characters much more warmly. For now though, all we're getting is a very unsatisfying look at them.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Based on what I've seen so far I'm not really expecting anything cool like this out of Luna.
Everything seems to point to her being a more traditional priestess type of character.
Stella seemed more interesting in this regard, because they showed her having similar abilities to Noctis in that one trailer where they were about to fight.I remember reading something about how Stella was supposed to be the heroine of the story back when Nomura was directing.
It reminded me of Devil May Cry 3, where you had Dante as the main protagonist and Vergil as the second protagonist, even though Vergil wasn't playable in the main game he felt like a semi protagonist/villain in the way he mirrored Dante's growth in the game, mostly from a gameplay standpoint where you fight him numerous times over the course of the game and each time he has new weapons/moves to go up against your own newly acquired abilities.
The concept of Stella being the Vergil to Noctis' Dante intrigues me a ton more than what we have now with Luna who doesn't seem anywhere near as interesting based on what I've seen so far.
Everything seems to point to her being a more traditional priestess type of character.
Stella seemed more interesting in this regard, because they showed her having similar abilities to Noctis in that one trailer where they were about to fight.I remember reading something about how Stella was supposed to be the heroine of the story back when Nomura was directing.
It reminded me of Devil May Cry 3, where you had Dante as the main protagonist and Vergil as the second protagonist, even though Vergil wasn't playable in the main game he felt like a semi protagonist/villain in the way he mirrored Dante's growth in the game, mostly from a gameplay standpoint where you fight him numerous times over the course of the game and each time he has new weapons/moves to go up against your own newly acquired abilities.
The concept of Stella being the Vergil to Noctis' Dante intrigues me a ton more than what we have now with Luna who doesn't seem anywhere near as interesting based on what I've seen so far.
I disagree because if that were the case, then Gladio would be doing chest/butt poses and you can zoom in on his package during VR.
I mean no not really. If they showed off multiple scenes of celes being treated poorly and a movie showing her being moved by the plot instead of having agency then it would be equivalent. Then again, they couldn't do that for celes because she's an awesome character. So they wouldn't have that material to pull from.Exactly. I think we might have drawn the same conclusion about Celes in FFVI if the marketing machine back in the day kept showing us this scene before release:
But in the end after playing the game I don't think anyone really saw Celes as some sort of punching bag character
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This is a great post.
Dangerous? LOL
I'm not saying it can only be political correctness. But it this case, it is.
Some people, like you, always find something to complain about, no matter how trivial the detail. They'll blow everything out of proportion, and in many cases, before even having full knowledge of what they're mad about. At one point, the storyteller has a story to tell. No complaints about a male character getting beaten up for a reason or another. But if a woman gets slapped, in a situation we don't even have any details yet, then it's sexist and wha wha wha.
I'm glad Tabata said "fuck it" and stuck to what he had in mind. Artists that try too hard to ponder to the crowd end up becoming artistically bankrupt, and making by-the-number products that feel soulless. And for what? To appease the easily offended vocal minority.
Until the game has come out, your input on any of this is irrelevant and meaningless to me, and comes off as nothing but an over reaction.
When the game comes out, and we can finally assess what's going on with those characters, then the discussion about this particular game can have meaning and weight.
Then they could have gone with this instead:
Heck in one of the US commercials they insert "generic woman screaming sound effect" for Tifa:
https://youtu.be/t9pF9BJQBLo
It also reminds me how the Mass Effect 2 trailer has Shepard shouting "Tali!" in a totally unrelated out-of-context scene:
https://youtu.be/sjOEmHEd2XM
I remember it working since a lot of the comments at the time where "OMG will Tali be okay?"
Showing women in peril, even when it turns out they aren't, is a common marketing tactic.
Which is why I don't think the Luna bit in the latest trailer is as bad as people are theorizing.
Wait until the actual game comes out. I got a feeling you'll get your wish.
I don't know why some people think this, considering
she repeatedly gives the villains the slip, and even causes one to literally die under his own greed.
I actually appreciated them sticking to their guns and showing Luna being a capable character who could get out of most situations on her own.
I'm just disappointed like the rest who were hoping for another Celes instead of another Aerith (of which there are plenty of the latter, not nearly enough of the former).
SmoothRunningGun
Member
I like Cindy. Isn't there a dude walking around with his jacket open the whole game: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Gladiolus_Amicitia
I don't see a problem with him or cindy.
I don't see a problem with him or cindy.
While I have opinions about Luna's character design, i'm reserving judgement on her character as a whole until I play the game.
Cindy on the other hand is there for one reason, and I can happily say how ridiculous that character is. I'll just ask a question to the other women on GAF. Would you hang around your grandfather dressed like Cindy? Personally, not in a million years, its so weird.
Cindy on the other hand is there for one reason, and I can happily say how ridiculous that character is. I'll just ask a question to the other women on GAF. Would you hang around your grandfather dressed like Cindy? Personally, not in a million years, its so weird.
The main problem, as many have pointed out, is her frequent posing and leering camera angles.
What hasn't been pointed out is that the recent demo footage seems to have scaled back on that considerably. Not sure if that's an indication that they've listened to feedback, but it's a comforting thought.
Then they could have gone with this instead:
Heck in one of the US commercials they insert "generic woman screaming sound effect" for Tifa:
https://youtu.be/t9pF9BJQBLo
It also reminds me how the Mass Effect 2 trailer has Shepard shouting "Tali!" in a totally unrelated out-of-context scene:
https://youtu.be/sjOEmHEd2XM
I remember it working since a lot of the comments at the time where "OMG will Tali be okay?"
Showing women in peril, even when it turns out they aren't, is a common marketing tactic.
Which is why I don't think the Luna bit in the latest trailer is as bad as people are theorizing.
But why bring up US commercials to the actual writers of the game who created it?
And yeah, i get what your saying about that poster being better suited,but they both did the job. I think your looking too hard into it specifically for that one.
Nojima wrote her character since the beginning. He wrote Aerith too, everyone had inputs about certain scenes happening. He did the compilation as well.
The characters you had in your head arent the same ones he was writing.
Also, i'm not exactly sure what was wrong with Aerith, (or Tifa) in the compilation? Aerith only shows up in CC and does the same thing she does in FF7,make advances toward Cloud/Zack. SHe generally only leaves the slums 5 years later in the first place to go on the adventure.
Tifa generally does the exact same thing in CC as she does in FF7, and in AC, she's actually a mother figure holding Denzel and Cloud together, i think that's great development compared to how she hated herself for not being able to decide on things, and being hesitant in FF7
There's so much to cover in this and your previous post.
Luna being an upper classman dresses in a way that fits portraying someone with grace and strong fashion sense for simple aesthetics. Her style is not out of the norm for affluent people. I do agree that the trailer so far gives hints of her being that strong supportive character and while that it is generally problematic trope I take into context the team that is working it while you prefer to ignore the team in favor of the wider development culture.
When games like Elder Scrolls and Kings Quest clearly had leading women in less than desirable depictions Final Fantasy was always the forefront in pushing less of an emphasis on showing skin for modesty or flamboyance, having female characters with parts far better than their contemporaries of their time period to having gameplay roles with stats that wasn't a joke or only supportive.
You're positioning your argument as if SquareEnix has a systemic problem when at a fundamental level they've gone against the grain and made some of the best representations of women in gaming throughout history.
It's fine to say what's shown so far is regressive for Square but I don't think Square should avoid doing it all. People have strengths and weaknesses in different ways and I don't see anything wrong with Square experimenting with something that's not normal for them. Personally I hope in the game they actually put a spin on this but even if they don't I doubt this means they are heading towards a totally new direction in character depiction that leans heavily on decades old stereotypes they've pushed against before.
Going back to your point about Cid and how they pretty much make a requisite sexy character that is only about showing off their body. It's true that they have at least one dressed like that but up until now they also had interesting backstories or powerful roles (playable or not).
So Cid is atypical be being totally eye candy especially since her father makes her redundant.
The inclusion of Cid as a short cut to adding a female element you lust for is a missed opportunity by Square to build up on past games where characters form short as well as long term relationships. A big part about being in a group of guys is learning together how to interact with women so this was another way in game bonding that could've been developed if they took more time than just making someone everyone lusted after whenever she came around to fix their car.
They also have a regalia skin for Cindy and promoted their ubers at pax with a Cindy cosplayer. I don't think they have really learned their lesson about it whatsoever. I don't even dislike Cindy but I mean. It's still kind of... Yeah.
Vlaphor
Member
I still believe that consumer choice is always the best option for situations like this. Customization options that would allow people to have the content they want would be the best way to make the most people happy. I believe was a survey recently that put the franchises audience at around 45% female or thereabouts, and the core fans generally seem happy with how this game is turning out, so why not allow for more customization in an attempt to maximize customer satisfaction.
As for Cindy being changed, I highly doubt that, as they've also received a large amount of feedback saying that the fans liked Cindy and didn't want her changed. Since they've already done the work, I doubt they'd pull back any in case of conflicting feedback.
As for Cindy being changed, I highly doubt that, as they've also received a large amount of feedback saying that the fans liked Cindy and didn't want her changed. Since they've already done the work, I doubt they'd pull back any in case of conflicting feedback.
Masato Kato wrote most of Tifa's dialog, since she was a late addition to the story.
And I do agree that there seem to be two kinds of thought with the people at Square regarding Tifa: market her as a badass fighter with a kind-hearted personality, or market her for sex appeal.
Which is why something like Advent Children has commentary on how they worked extra hard to come up with a balanced redesign for Tifa, and even re-writing and re-rendering scenes to make her less timid, but in Dissidia 012 you have this:
In the end of the day it all depends on the people in charge of each project, which is why Nomura being the director for FFVII Remake is a big assurance and Toriyama "I wanted Lightning to have bigger boobs that jiggle" will be kept far away.
Their statement was to tone down the sex appeal, not remove it entirely.
Fanservice is fine as long as it doesn't define the character's existence. So far it still looks that way in Cindy's case.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The slip? Like the first time she's catched by her brother and then she's rescued like 3 times? lol. And that guy basically killed himself, attribuiting the death to Luna is laughable.
I don't think we saw the same movie at all.
Masato Kato wrote most of Tifa's dialog, since she was a late addition to the story.
And I do agree that there seem to be two kinds of thought with the people at Square regarding Tifa: market her as a badass fighter with a kind-hearted personality, or market her for sex appeal.
Which is why something like Advent Children has commentary on how they worked extra hard to come up with a balanced redesign for Tifa, and even re-writing and re-rendering scenes to make her less timid, but in Dissidia 012 you have this:
In the end of the day it all depends on the people in charge of each project, which is why Nomura being the director for FFVII Remake is a big assurance and Toriyama "I wanted Lightning to have bigger boobs that jiggle" will be kept far away.
.
A well reasoned response thank you. But isn't it just alarm bells that the same author who wrote Dissidia is writing FF15? I mean she(Saori Itamuro) is generally taking orders from Tabata, so i don't know who exactly is directly responsible for content, nor do i know who was in charge of that VERY disgusting comment in Dissidia's notebook. But i would hope that it doesn't signify what is to come in the game, because that's just a bad look.
Who do we even blame for Cindy? Her character designer, the director, the script writer? Other? Who comes up with the pitch and who gets final say whether it gets added in?
It's really hard to tell with Square: Matsuno sure as hell didn't want Vaan in FFXII, but some higher-ups forced him to include him and replace Basch as the main character.
It's really hard to tell with Square: Matsuno sure as hell didn't want Vaan in FFXII, but some higher-ups forced him to include him and replace Basch as the main character.
Aqua still had jiggle physics, which I still find surprising seeing how Disney reportedly looks over these games like a hawk ready to demand any change necessary.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The director, of course, he has the last word on how a character is designed.
Cindy is a very different case as Vaan for obvious reasons.
That's right but its up to Tabata to steer the ship. Surely he has control over camera panning ass footage and making Cindy as objectified as possible right?
I mean he was right in the room with the marketing guy when he made that sexist comment, it is still on him to manage the perception of his game.
Didn't they miss Kairi panties in KH2 also in the Japanese release?
Disney also most likely made Aqua model in the international release less revealing.
JayBabay
Member
I wanted to get a post in before glossing over the comments so as to not dilute any opinion I may have.
First, I have to agree with your sentiment about Cidney/Cindy. I believe this is one that we can easily come to a correct conclusion about as to what the intentions of SE are in designing her the way they did. Admittedly, it does seem awkward for the context of what the game is trying to do overall but I'm not surprised by the inclusion. I guess it feels like a slice out of any MGS title so it didn't feel out of the ordinary for me, however that doesn't make it correct, either.
Second, on to Stella/Luna. In the Versus XIII footage we saw, as limited as it was, Stella did seem to have more of an allure to her character than what we have seen of Luna so far. Regardless, I am going to wait until I have the final product in my hand to understand what the context behind the characters behavior and actions are. After watching Kingsglaive
. Not sure about the inclusion of the scenes where she is physically assaulted being included in the trailers. For in the game I'll have to wait and see what the context is for them having it to begin with instead of just implying it. I agree it's likely not necessary to the plot to show scenes like this.
Aside from that, I feel like the character is meant to begin a certain way based on their living conditions and situation growing up, and then develop into someone else as the game progresses.
First, I have to agree with your sentiment about Cidney/Cindy. I believe this is one that we can easily come to a correct conclusion about as to what the intentions of SE are in designing her the way they did. Admittedly, it does seem awkward for the context of what the game is trying to do overall but I'm not surprised by the inclusion. I guess it feels like a slice out of any MGS title so it didn't feel out of the ordinary for me, however that doesn't make it correct, either.
Second, on to Stella/Luna. In the Versus XIII footage we saw, as limited as it was, Stella did seem to have more of an allure to her character than what we have seen of Luna so far. Regardless, I am going to wait until I have the final product in my hand to understand what the context behind the characters behavior and actions are. After watching Kingsglaive
it seems that it became more apparent that she is constantly put in situations that require the aid of someone else in order to survive. Also the car scene was condescending but I don't know if she lived her entire life in captivity and genuinely does not have experience driving whereas Nyx as a soldier may be better suited. It wasn't necessary to portray or make that assumption, and I agree that it isn't balanced in its portrayal since the "stronger" female didn't have much footage in the film.
Aside from that, I feel like the character is meant to begin a certain way based on their living conditions and situation growing up, and then develop into someone else as the game progresses.
I'm getting a lot of similar vibes.
It's a little early to be calling any of these characters paragons of the craft or horrible cliches. Two months guys, that's all we gotta wait at this point.
Marketing.
Calling it now, Cidney will sell more figures than any of the 4 boys and Luna combined.
That's right but its up to Tabata to steer the ship. Surely he has control over camera panning ass footage and making Cindy as objectified as possible right?
I mean he was right in the room with the marketing guy when he made that sexist comment, it is still on him to manage the perception of his game.
Very slight, and its not as if a real woman's boobs don't move when they are jumping around. Its not exaggerated.
Cindy was initially designed by Roberto Ferrari...presumably she was going to be used for Versus years and years ago, but we don't know if any changes were made to the model from other editors in the years after his concept designs, or what her former purpose in the game was, or even what her original character was sadly.
The Aqua model in both the JP and English versions are both the same. Nomura was torn over making a slightly more revealing design with the back more exposed, or keep the original design he had in mind. He ended up settling on the slightly more covered up one. According to him, Disney did not contact him about it.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That dosn't change the fact that the last call of how is presented in XV resides on Tabata.
The Emperor
Member
Then they could have gone with this instead:
Heck in one of the US commercials they insert "generic woman screaming sound effect" for Tifa:
https://youtu.be/t9pF9BJQBLo
It also reminds me how the Mass Effect 2 trailer has Shepard shouting "Tali!" in a totally unrelated out-of-context scene:
https://youtu.be/sjOEmHEd2XM
I remember it working since a lot of the comments at the time where "OMG will Tali be okay?"
Showing women in peril, even when it turns out they aren't, is a common marketing tactic.
Which is why I don't think the Luna bit in the latest trailer is as bad as people are theorizing.
Great post.
In fact we have an example of such a marketing tactic from our very own FFX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLrkOUqyioo
I know, i'm just staying that Tabata isn't responsible for Cindy's existence in general.
The Emperor
Member
In a way FFXII was even more blunt about females having a bigger impact on plot than the XIII-1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r0L6gkb1u0
The final trailer for XII pretty much ends with Ashe being proclaimed as the chosen one who must move the fate of the world.
On a side note...that was an awesome trailer back in the day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r0L6gkb1u0
The final trailer for XII pretty much ends with Ashe being proclaimed as the chosen one who must move the fate of the world.
On a side note...that was an awesome trailer back in the day.
The camera panning in that scene is there only to emphasize how "boys will be boys".
Yeah, why didn't they consult tumblr on all of their designs?If only they had designed Cindy like this,
A pretty good compromise I think, she would be sexier dressed this way, without everything on show (did nobody teach her the rules of legs or cleavage not both?). But i'm a straight female, what do I know? lol
dragonzdogma
Member
Period.
Nice excuse
No amount of reasoning will appease some of you. No matter what.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Considering how much fan feedback made it into the game, I don't see why not. lol
I would play the context card in many situations, not in this one. Is a silly one.
This can't be a real post. Please tell me you're joking.
I may be a different kind of guy from their supposed target audience, i'm not some douchey bro dude to pander to with forced leering shots of the camera.
Its seriously as bad as a michael bay movie. Cindy is Megan Fox.
I would expect this serious story to take atleast some consideration for the characters beyond the emotional and camera work range of Michael bay.
Then the characters would all be androgynously designed homosexuals named after gems.
I actually love Steven Universe, don't shoot me
Couple things, not so much at OP as at the general issue:
-There's nothing wrong with focusing on homosocial relationships. Personally, I'm not so sold on the road trip premise that I wouldn't rather have female characters too, but the idea that an all male cast is itself sexist is silly.
-Female characters do not need to be strong. This idea that all female characters should be role models of some sort that we should be able to look up to is an idea that is damaging to female representation. Being human doesn't mean being strong and male characters have the advantage of being able to be all sorts of disgusting without being labeled as sexist representations that should be excised from fiction. Female characters should be given the room to breathe, to be completely wrong, weak, to not 'rise above what society would have them be, etc.' The issue is when female characters are presented as intrinsically not human in the ways men are.
-Both those things said, you could be completely right about FFXV being sexist, but idt we've seen enough. Also, yes, it is mostly about the general picture rather than the individual cases.
-There's nothing wrong with focusing on homosocial relationships. Personally, I'm not so sold on the road trip premise that I wouldn't rather have female characters too, but the idea that an all male cast is itself sexist is silly.
-Female characters do not need to be strong. This idea that all female characters should be role models of some sort that we should be able to look up to is an idea that is damaging to female representation. Being human doesn't mean being strong and male characters have the advantage of being able to be all sorts of disgusting without being labeled as sexist representations that should be excised from fiction. Female characters should be given the room to breathe, to be completely wrong, weak, to not 'rise above what society would have them be, etc.' The issue is when female characters are presented as intrinsically not human in the ways men are.
-Both those things said, you could be completely right about FFXV being sexist, but idt we've seen enough. Also, yes, it is mostly about the general picture rather than the individual cases.
If only they had designed Cindy like this,
A pretty good compromise I think, she would be sexier dressed this way, without everything on show (did nobody teach her the rules of legs or cleavage not both?). But i'm a straight female, what do I know? lol
Those sketches are quite better than the final design. When I saw Cindy indy design. A normal mechanic suit with a sport bra, something similar to the clothes Winry uses in Full Metal Alchemist. It's fanservicy enough, it shows a bit, but in the end of the day, while she is working she shouldn't worry about ending up covered in oil and stuff because of how much skin she shows.
About the slap, it's really weird. It's completely out of context, and is preceded and followed by a bunch of short clips that are supposed to be hype-inducing. I dunno. It feels like they are just slapping Luna to "raise the stakes" because she is a woman, but you don't really know why.
Now lets imagine something like this:
- If Luna dies, Leviathan disappears.
- Bad guy wants to use the power of Leviathan for evil uses.
- She says she would rather die than allow him to do it.
- He slaps her as a burst of frustration because, even if she is supposed to be captive, she has some control over the situation. And she knows it.
It's much better, since you make people see that, even captive, she (kind of) is in a position of strength. You could have thrown this between one of the scenes where we see signs of Noctis' weaknesses (which he will overcome during his journey, where he will grow up and all that).
The game is really weird. Is a game about a group of 4 dudes that totally look like a boy band. Which I guess have been made to appeal to some women. Yet it treats its female characters like this... I dunno. It's just weird.
Ideally, a game as long as this could have different archetypes. I agree that you don't need a character to be "strong" in a traditional sense. But it's weird seing how inconsistent Luna charaterization so far is. In one scene you have her facing a giant monster. In the next you have her slapped with no context. Then she pass by the gunners side while leaving the bedroom. Then something else happens. It's weird.
The problem (I think) is that we've seen some red flags before, and the released content doesn't really prove those were wrong. So there is some pessimism.
If it prevents characters like Cindy, i'm fine with it.
