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[dramatis]

There's so much to cover in this and your previous post.

Luna being an upper classman dresses in a way that fits portraying someone with grace and strong fashion sense for simple aesthetics. Her style is not out of the norm for affluent people. I do agree that the trailer so far gives hints of her being that strong supportive character and while that it is generally problematic trope I take into context the team that is working it while you prefer to ignore the team in favor of the wider development culture.

When games like Elder Scrolls and Kings Quest clearly had leading women in less than desirable depictions Final Fantasy was always the forefront in pushing less of an emphasis on showing skin for modesty or flamboyance, having female characters with parts far better than their contemporaries of their time period to having gameplay roles with stats that wasn't a joke or only supportive.

You're positioning your argument as if SquareEnix has a systemic problem when at a fundamental level they've gone against the grain and made some of the best representations of women in gaming throughout history.

It's fine to say what's shown so far is regressive for Square but I don't think Square should avoid doing it all. People have strengths and weaknesses in different ways and I don't see anything wrong with Square experimenting with something that's not normal for them. Personally I hope in the game they actually put a spin on this but even if they don't I doubt this means they are heading towards a totally new direction in character depiction that leans heavily on decades old stereotypes they've pushed against before.

Going back to your point about Cid and how they pretty much make a requisite sexy character that is only about showing off their body. It's true that they have at least one dressed like that but up until now they also had interesting backstories or powerful roles (playable or not).

So Cid is atypical be being totally eye candy especially since her father makes her redundant.

The inclusion of Cid as a short cut to adding a female element you lust for is a missed opportunity by Square to build up on past games where characters form short as well as long term relationships. A big part about being in a group of guys is learning together how to interact with women so this was another way in game bonding that could've been developed if they took more time than just making someone everyone lusted after whenever she came around to fix their car.

"Luna having a style of affluent people" means very little. The privilege of wealth is that she can dress in a vast swath of fashions available; contemporary fashion is broad from culture, history, and the enhancements of the technologies available today to make different fabrics and clothing. Yet her design was made with simple white dress, blonde hair, blue eyes, soft demeanor. It's evident even from visual design that Luna is supposed to be a 'pure beautiful nice princess', the equivalent of being a trophy. It's not a strong fashion sense; it's just a dull dress intended to reflect a boring character.

A character who would walk in wearing this is infinitely more interesting, stylish, and likely present more of a personality than what Luna's visual design conveys. It is the developer's choice to make Luna look the way she does, so there aren't excuses, it's just natural that she would look like that because they aim for a specific type of boring supportive girl character.

Games of the west have been working to modify their products according to feedback. Even Call of Duty is exhibiting initiative in having a diverse cast and better characterization of these characters. The linking of old marketing material in this thread and the insistence of FF's merits in the past do not reflect the current state of FF or the evolution of the industry and the environment post-GamerGate. Has the industry not changed since 2006, where these 12 trailers and these AC trailers are being linked as if they were proof of anything? Even back then FF was not at the forefront of pushing less emphasis on fanservice elements on female characters: Tifa, the tight suit of Garnet emphasizing her ass, Lulu bending over to jiggle her boobs as a victory pose, the fanservice costumes of 10-2, the designs of Ashe and Fran in 12, Vanille having a plot mark on her butt, the reduction of Lightning to a dress up doll over the 13 trilogy. Pre-7 they could get away with sketchy designs because of sprites.

By now, with Luna and Cidney, it is evident that FF is backsliding. Part of this is not the fault of Square; after all, they cannot control the cultural proclivities of Japan. But unlike Tales, or Star Ocean, or even Persona, which rides the line between niche and something more successful than niche, FF has the advantage of global success and mainstream access. Yet the developers felt the urge to put in garbage like Cidney, when they don't need to pander to that market to sell more. For Dragon Quest, SE does not need that sort of material for mainstream success, yet you find your puff-puffs and your va va vooms and your bikini clad female characters in there too. For Mobius, SE responded to complaints about the male character design, but complaints about female character design in 15 fell to deaf ears. Is there not something inherently wrong there?

Making "some of the best representations of women in gaming throughout history" is not a high bar when the portrayal of women in gaming is rubbish to begin with. SE has not been a leader in game design, story, character, tech, anything for 10 years; for FF15, we have stooped to asking them to meet the new, 2016 baseline for female characters. Rather than standing apart from the crowd of otaku-oriented female designs, SE has stuck their feet in the pool, and ignored feedback that suggested they should get out before they get deeper.

If tech is what hobbled Japan in the PS360 gen, what will hobble them in HD games from here on out is something substantially more difficult: a divergence in the culture and tastes of the western market from the culture and tastes of the domestic Japan market. The mainstream of Japan has moved to mobile; to sell console games they have to pander to otaku. But that market is nowhere near big enough to repay the cost of developing a big budget JRPG like a mainline FF. To tackle that, yes, Square has to avoid doing Cidney-like pandering. They have to write female characters that appeal to more than domestic Japanese men. They have to get to growing their audience, not shrinking it. Cidney-types, Luna-types, those are not the way to go.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The guy you quoted is right. Her clothes and mannerisms are part of her design and since we don't have the game yet, it's what's separates her from generic npcs.

As far as other Cid design goes, her clothes are pretty unique like past Cids. So I don't really get your point.

My point is that revealing clothes is not the only way to separate her from other NPC's, and sure as hell that pasts males Cid didn't get unique revealing clothes. I think the point is quite clear...

 

[Mesoian]

If tech is what hobbled Japan in the PS360 gen, what will hobble them in HD games from here on out is something substantially more difficult: a divergence in the culture and tastes of the western market from the culture and tastes of the domestic Japan market. The mainstream of Japan has moved to mobile; to sell console games they have to pander to otaku. But that market is nowhere near big enough to repay the cost of developing a big budget JRPG like a mainline FF. To tackle that, yes, Square has to avoid doing Cidney-like pandering. They have to write female characters that appeal to more than domestic Japanese men. They have to get to growing their audience, not shrinking it. Cidney-types, Luna-types, those are not the way to go.

They need to step away from the very common but still celebrated tropes of Japanese entertainment.

Which is never going to happen.
Because that's difficult and risky.

My point is that revealing clothes is not the only way to separate her from other NPC's, and sure as hell that pasts males Cid didn't get unique revealing clothes. I think the point is quite clear...

But it's the easiest way. The only other method that would be even easier would be to make her a....dog or something. Maybe a mog or some sort of talking cat.

Third Birthday

Haha.....ah....now you wanna talk about these cats not understanding something...this is all the proof you'll ever need.

 

[Garlador]

I'm worried it's gonna be a Quiet situation where people before the release are assuming there will be a good reason why she's in a bikini, and then she has embarassing and gratuitous shower scenes and fanservice shots in the final product.

At least stuff like Senran Kagura knows it's a tits-and-ass game and revels in it. I can at least respect that.

Well, to be honest, Square Enix already did that to one game series. Poor Parasite Eve...

I'm STILL foaming at the mouth with rage over The 3rd Birthday. Aya Brea was one of the most amazing female protagonists of the PS1 generation. She spent the majority of the game dressed like a sensible, normal woman, while always seeming like a strong, courageous female cop. It was BEYOND refreshing.

By the time The 3rd Birthday came along, they had taken her character build and turned it into Dead or Alive.

The director of the game boasted proudly about how they added in a sexy naked shower scene "because it was part of the franchise's legacy" (which is baffling since the first game never had one). They prided themselves and boasted about how her clothes would become shredded and fall apart over the course of a level, leaving her in tatters and rags. The main character was rewritten from a strong, confident, mature professional woman into a crying, insecure, sexually exploited young girl

Spoiler

and then explained that Aya Brea's body was actually hijacked by an emotionally insecure and weak-willed child to justify the shift

. It was one of the most gag-inducing, nauseating treatments I've EVER seen of a female protagonist and the only reason it doesn't get as much public outrage as something like Metroid: Other M is that not as many cared about the Parasite Eve franchise, but it was certainly nipping at Other M's Samus's heels in terms of taking a capable, badass female heroine and dragging her through the misogynistic mud.

And Square Enix put their name all over the damn thing. Everyone involved in that game (except, perhaps, the music composers) deserves to be on a hall of shame.

... And it was directed by Final Fantasy XV's director, Hajime Tabata.

I haven't forgiven him so easily. My skepticism of how he'll handle the women in this game is damn well warranted.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Because that is hot as fuck, that's why.

Then they failed for me. Is that really what gets people gunning? Having short shorts that go all the way up to the ass complete with tan lines? That's like Yuna FFX-2 level of try hard, 'let's sexualize this previously modest but determined female by having her hotpants so tight her buttocks are showing"

It doesn't even do its job right.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

But it's the easiest way. The only other method that would be even easier would be to make her a....dog or something. Maybe a mog or some sort of talking cat.

I expect developers to not take the easiest approach in 2016 regarding female representation on a game.

And I still don't get why she can't be a normal dressed female, instead she's either eye candy or a...mog?

 

[Mesoian]

Then they failed for me. Is that really what gets people gunning? Having short shorts that go all the way up to the ass complete with tan lines? That's like Yuna FFX-2 level of try hard, 'let's sexualize this previously modest but determined female by having her hotpants so tight her buttocks are showing"

It doesn't even do its job right.

To be fair, FF10-2 was still great, despite questionable wardrobe choices plucked from high fashion and gravure magazines.

I expect developers to not take the easiest approach in 2016 regarding female representation on a game.

Real talk.

Why?

There is almost no payoff in doing that, Especially when you're talking about a fantasy setting, ESPECIALLY in japan.

Never expect developers to go with the thing that challenges people (in a mental way, hard games still exist). There's too much risk in doing that.

 

[Jennipeg]

Ashe is a wonderful character.Clearly one of the stronger female characters in the series.

Yes she is somewhat scantily clad,but the game treats her with utmost respect and she is a powerful figure in her world.

Thinking of Ashe reminds me that I'm not against revealing clothes in every instance. I actually really like Ashe's outfit, the only thing i'd change is the skirt (i'd make them shorts). The outfit as a whole isn't over the top in terms of sex appeal.

I always considered Ashe the main character of XII, I was really surprised when I read that Basche was supposed to be the main character before Vaan. I agree Ashe is great, not exactly likeable, but resolute in her mission. I think my feelings about Ashe are what I should feel about Lightning, except I don't.

 

[PtM]

No amount of reasoning will appease some of you. No matter what.

Same goes for you.

Its seriously as bad as a michael bay movie. Cindy is Megan Fox.

Shit, you're right, haha!

The tan lines on top of everything else always get me.

Now, imagine how she would look like without boots and stockings.

Shit, this thread is racing!

 

[Slater]

Well, to be honest, Square Enix already did that to one game series. Poor Parasite Eve...


I'm STILL foaming at the mouth with rage over The 3rd Birthday. Aya Brea was one of the most amazing female protagonists of the PS1 generation. She spent the majority of the game dressed like a sensible, normal woman, while always seeming like a strong, courageous female cop. It was BEYOND refreshing.

By the time The 3rd Birthday came along, they had taken her character build and turned it into Dead or Alive.


The director of the game boasted proudly about how they added in a sexy naked shower scene "because it was part of the franchise's legacy" (which is baffling since the first game never had one). They prided themselves and boasted about how her clothes would become shredded and fall apart over the course of a level, leaving her in tatters and rags. The main character was rewritten from a strong, confident, mature professional woman into a crying, insecure, sexually exploited young girl

Spoiler

and then explained that Aya Brea's body was actually hijacked by an emotionally insecure and weak-willed child to justify the shift

. It was one of the most gag-inducing, nauseating treatments I've EVER seen of a female protagonist and the only reason it doesn't get as much public outrage as something like Metroid: Other M is that not as many cared about the Parasite Eve franchise, but it was certainly nipping at Other M's Samus's heels in terms of taking a capable, badass female heroine and dragging her through the misogynistic mud.

And Square Enix put their name all over the damn thing. Everyone involved in that game (expect, perhaps, the music composers) deserves to be on a hall of shame.

... And it was directed by Final Fantasy XV's director, Hajime Tabata.

I haven't forgiven him so easily. My skepticism of how he'll handle the women in this game is damn well warranted.

Actually NOMURA is the one who came up with all the clothing damage stuff in 3rd Birthday. He's the one who drew that art you posted too.

He doesn't have a good track record with female characters outside of Aqua at all but that tends to be ignored for some reason.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Well, to be honest, Square Enix already did that to one game series. Poor Parasite Eve...


I'm STILL foaming at the mouth with rage over The 3rd Birthday. Aya Brea was one of the most amazing female protagonists of the PS1 generation. She spent the majority of the game dressed like a sensible, normal woman, while always seeming like a strong, courageous female cop. It was BEYOND refreshing.

By the time The 3rd Birthday came along, they had taken her character build and turned it into Dead or Alive.


The director of the game boasted proudly about how they added in a sexy naked shower scene "because it was part of the franchise's legacy" (which is baffling since the first game never had one). They prided themselves and boasted about how her clothes would become shredded and fall apart over the course of a level, leaving her in tatters and rags. The main character was rewritten from a strong, confident, mature professional woman into a crying, insecure, sexually exploited young girl

Spoiler

and then explained that Aya Brea's body was actually hijacked by an emotionally insecure and weak-willed child to justify the shift

. It was one of the most gag-inducing, nauseating treatments I've EVER seen of a female protagonist and the only reason it doesn't get as much public outrage as something like Metroid: Other M is that not as many cared about the Parasite Eve franchise, but it was certainly nipping at Other M's Samus's heels in terms of taking a capable, badass female heroine and dragging her through the misogynistic mud.

And Square Enix put their name all over the damn thing. Everyone involved in that game (expect, perhaps, the music composers) deserves to be on a hall of shame.

... And it was directed by Final Fantasy XV's director, Hajime Tabata.

I haven't forgiven him so easily. My skepticism of how he'll handle the women in this game is damn well warranted.

Oooof. I had no idea Tabata did The 3rd Birthday. For some reason I always thought it was Toriyama.

Kind of puts the lackluster treatment of female characters in FFXV in perspective. I have to admit it's the major aspect of the game that makes me really uncomfortable. The game itself could turn out to be excellent and I'm hoping for that but it really bothers me.

 

[Via Purifico]

He directed that garbage? holy crap. I remember most of the fallout going towards Toriyama.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Reviewers, maybe.
Most fans, certainly not.

It'll depend on how much she's in there I suppose. But I think given Final Fantasy's pedigree, there will be pushback.

At least I hope there is.

Because that is hot as fuck, that's why.

I don't need Final Fantasy to get my jollies off.

 

[wildfire]

Then they failed for me. Is that really what gets people gunning? Having short shorts that go all the way up to the ass complete with tan lines? That's like Yuna FFX-2 level of try hard, 'let's sexualize this previously modest but determined female by having her hotpants so tight her buttocks are showing"

It doesn't even do its job right.

I guess you never watched a Fast and the Furious movie or a bunch of teen movies made during 2000 to 2010?


It has an appeal.

 

[JBwB]

Because that is hot as fuck, that's why.

Very blunt haha.

It's true though.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

To be fair, FF10-2 was still great, despite questionable wardrobe choices plucked from high fashion and gravure magazines.



Real talk.

Why?

There is almost no payoff in doing that, Especially when you're talking about a fantasy setting, ESPECIALLY in japan.

Never expect developers to go with the thing that challenges people (in a mental way, hard games still exist). There's too much risk in doing that.

Games, are slowly but surely advancing for better female representation, being more inclusive means you reach a higher market, and they want to reach 10 million sales, which like 90% of those would be in the west, so the payoff is clear.

Another matter is that they are totally clueless. And that's why FF brand is slowly decaying.

 

[Ray Down]

Oooof. I had no idea Tabata did The 3rd Birthday. For some reason I always thought it was Toriyama.

Kind of puts the lackluster treatment of female characters in FFXV in perspective. I have to admit it's the major aspect of the game that makes me really uncomfortable. The game itself could turn out to be excellent and I'm hoping for that but it really bothers me.

Toriyama just did the story, Nomura came up with the clothes angle.

 

[Zaventem]

Someone really linked a dress from fendi resort 2017 like game designers can compete with Karl Lagerfeld designs.

 

[Inuhanyou]

To be fair, FF10-2 was still great, despite questionable wardrobe choices plucked from high fashion and gravure magazines.

 

[Via Purifico]

In regards to Cindy, it's pretty cut and dry on what her design purpose was.

That creepy comment about the work put into her was too much.

 

[Mesoian]

Someone really linked a dress from fendi resort 2017 like game designers can compete with Karl Lagerfeld designs.

Imagine if they spend a tiny fraction of their budget getting a practical fashion designer to comment on their shit though.

I mean seriously, look at this shit.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fen...pBZQQyjcIPQ&ei=BBDbV_fLHs-ImwHM05egCQ#imgrc=_

A lot of that is straight fire.

You're right though, that's asking a lot of people. Unfortunately, cross-industry collaboration is also asking a lot from people.

I mean really, how much money did they spend on that Coleman licence? How much? I wanna see the receipts.

Look in your heart, you know it to be true.

 

[Necromanti]

There's a big difference between a character being sexy and a character being (over)sexualized, in my eyes. I'm disappointed that Cindy's outfit looks so dumb and the way they seem to be handling her. But I've never been a fan of out-of-place sexualization and fanservice.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

He directed that garbage? holy crap. I remember most of the fallout going towards Toriyama.

Well, the actual gameplay was good, the problem was the story, and the blame for that falls directly on Toriyama, for one of the worst gaming scripts ever created, and boy, gaming had some terrible scripts...

 

[Inuhanyou]

.

 

[Jennipeg]

Actually NOMURA is the one who came up with all the clothing damage stuff in 3rd Birthday. He's the one who drew that art you posted too.

He doesn't have a good track record with female characters outside of Aqua at all but that tends to be ignored for some reason.

His female designs in Final Fantasy 8 were pretty good in fairness. Positively demure compared to some others.

 

[Garlador]

Actually NOMURA is the one who came up with all the clothing damage stuff in 3rd Birthday. He's the one who drew that art you posted too.

He doesn't have a good track record with female characters outside of Aqua at all but that tends to be ignored for some reason.

Nomura absolutely did request that feature, and I'm really upset that he did. He initially suggested the feature, but Tabata was the director and he ultimately felt the suggestion was a good idea and went with it. There's a reason I place a lot of blame on everyone involved in the project.

He was the concept artist for the original games too, but in that case the original game was directed by Takashi Tokita and produced by Hironobu Sakaguchi, and despite a LOT of sexualized and pin-up style art that Nomura did for the game, the actual game itself has almost none of it and plays Aya Brea straight as a normal, sensibly-covered woman (she spends the majority of the game covered from head to toe in winter apparel). Whatever Nomura's inclinations, they had the decency to reign it in for the actual product.

He directed that garbage? holy crap. I remember most of the fallout going towards Toriyama.

Toriyama was the scenario director, so the bulk of the story details did come from him, but Tabata directed the whole mess.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Well, to be honest, Square Enix already did that to one game series. Poor Parasite Eve...


I'm STILL foaming at the mouth with rage over The 3rd Birthday. Aya Brea was one of the most amazing female protagonists of the PS1 generation. She spent the majority of the game dressed like a sensible, normal woman, while always seeming like a strong, courageous female cop. It was BEYOND refreshing.

By the time The 3rd Birthday came along, they had taken her character build and turned it into Dead or Alive.


The director of the game boasted proudly about how they added in a sexy naked shower scene "because it was part of the franchise's legacy" (which is baffling since the first game never had one). They prided themselves and boasted about how her clothes would become shredded and fall apart over the course of a level, leaving her in tatters and rags. The main character was rewritten from a strong, confident, mature professional woman into a crying, insecure, sexually exploited young girl

Spoiler

and then explained that Aya Brea's body was actually hijacked by an emotionally insecure and weak-willed child to justify the shift

. It was one of the most gag-inducing, nauseating treatments I've EVER seen of a female protagonist and the only reason it doesn't get as much public outrage as something like Metroid: Other M is that not as many cared about the Parasite Eve franchise, but it was certainly nipping at Other M's Samus's heels in terms of taking a capable, badass female heroine and dragging her through the misogynistic mud.

And Square Enix put their name all over the damn thing. Everyone involved in that game (expect, perhaps, the music composers) deserves to be on a hall of shame.

... And it was directed by Final Fantasy XV's director, Hajime Tabata.

I haven't forgiven him so easily. My skepticism of how he'll handle the women in this game is damn well warranted.

bwahaha, I forgot that was Tabata.

 

[Nirolak]

So the old woman discussion got me thinking.

Are there any old women in Final Fantasy games (feel free to include spin-offs) that:

1.) Are not immortals who look like they're 20-30.
2.) Are more than an NPC with a few lines of dialog. Major characters, playable characters, minor characters, it's all fine as long as they have some relevance to the plot and aren't just this person you walk by who goes "Hey Sonny, in my day we got our mail from the mailbox!" or only appears in a crowd shot.

If we can't come up with old ladies, I'll extend it to people in their mid 30s or older (even though this isn't actually old) since that's the age a lot of the male party members hit (Auron, Steiner, Basch), though we did have Strago at 70.

 

[Vlaphor]

Well, to be honest, Square Enix already did that to one game series. Poor Parasite Eve...


I'm STILL foaming at the mouth with rage over The 3rd Birthday. Aya Brea was one of the most amazing female protagonists of the PS1 generation. She spent the majority of the game dressed like a sensible, normal woman, while always seeming like a strong, courageous female cop. It was BEYOND refreshing.

Aya Brea was always a sex symbol, they just reserved most of that for the marketing.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/f7997cc049590c9a4c0a8f06c3b17910/tumblr_nmgvsyhdKj1rzxhn7o2_540.jpg

That's official Squaresoft art right there. My guess is they just saved the larger scale adaptation of it for when the hardware could finally do it justice.

I don't need Final Fantasy to get my jollies off.

Nor will it. It'll just be a nice little bonus, adding even more value to this game, plus it will also create a merchandisable character to get even more money.

 

[Alienous]

I really don't find Cindy to be problematic, as an isolated character. It's her piece within the greater puzzle of FFXV's portrayal of female characters that seems problematic.

vs

I'm not sure of Glauca's identity, but presumably he's a male character. Even if he were female Aranea's depiction is obvious titilation. Then the only other female characters I know of in FFXV are a damsel in distress (even if she doesn't like guns being pointed at her) and a sexy mechanic. (1)

It's a cultural incongruity that more Japanese developers should make themselves aware of. There should be roles for female characters in games that aren't tropes like being a sexy villainess or a princess to be rescued.

EDIT:

1) Oh wait, there's the annoying kid sister too. That's not too bad. So only 3/4 female characters I know of in FFXV are stock tropes.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Actually NOMURA is the one who came up with all the clothing damage stuff in 3rd Birthday. He's the one who drew that art you posted too.

He doesn't have a good track record with female characters outside of Aqua at all but that tends to be ignored for some reason.

That's well and good to point out, but then who is responsible for its inclusion? The Director or the Character Designer? Tabata clearly approved of it getting into his game.

I can't think of a list of what he's done in terms of original creation, but in terms of visual designs, Nomura has worked on Aerith, Terra, Yuffie, Lightning, Tifa, Yuna and Aqua.

Those are pretty good and unlike the shitty 3rd Birthday and Cindy designs.

 

[Via Purifico]

Imagine if they spend a tiny fraction of their budget getting a practical fashion designer to comment on their shit though.

I mean seriously, look at this shit.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fen...pBZQQyjcIPQ&ei=BBDbV_fLHs-ImwHM05egCQ#imgrc=_

A lot of that is straight fire.

You're right though, that's asking a lot of people. Unfortunately, cross-industry collaboration is also asking a lot from people.

I mean really, how much money did they spend on that Coleman licence? How much? I wanna see the receipts.



Look in your heart, you know it to be true.

This would have been great on Luna
http://assets.vogue.com/photos/574700397aa4caea6aec1518/master/pass/06-fendi-resort-17.jpg

Maybe less red and more white with some black patterns perhaps.

Well, the actual gameplay was good, the problem was the story, and the blame for that falls directly on Toriyama, for one of the worst gaming scripts ever created, and boy, gaming had some terrible scripts...

Toriyama was the scenario director, so the bulk of the story details did come from him, but Tabata directed the whole mess.

Thanks for the responses, that clears up a lot.

Yikes on all fronts though, jesus what a mess.

 

[Mesoian]

So the old woman discussion got me thinking.

Are there any old women in Final Fantasy games (feel free to include spin-offs) that:

1.) Are not immortals who look like they're 20-30.
2.) Are more than an NPC with a few lines of dialog. Major characters, playable characters, minor characters, it's all fine as long as they have some relevance to the plot and aren't just this person you walk by who goes "Hey Sonny, in my day we got our mail from the mailbox!" or only appears in a crowd shot.

Queen Braun
...
How old is Aeris' mom?
...

No. No there aren't.

 

[opulent_lemon]

sexy =/= sexist.

 

[Ray Down]

Here's the only comment form Nomura and Tabata on 3rd Birthday Shower scene:

Nomura responded that Parasite Eve 2, from which the shower scene originates, had quite a few extreme scenes. This is because the producer directed the staff to take this "sexy" approach to the game. "This time, we've considered the reaction from then and are making a refined sexual portrayal." (I think Nomura is talking about the game as a whole.)

Tabata reminded us of a past Nomura Tweet saying that the staff has managed to produce some test shower scene footage that they felt would be of the quality they'd want were they to use it in The 3rd Birthday. The question is if they can fit it into the game in an acceptable fashion. He said that players will need to see for themselves if it's in there.

When Nomura says producer he most likely referencing Kitase and maybe himself. Seeing he himself is a creative producer on the title.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Toriyama just did the story, Nomura came up with the clothes angle.

That explains it. I only remember hearing Toriyama's name thrown about regarding the game, probably because he already had XIII fresh in everyone's memory and Tabata's reputation was less established.

But yeah, like others said, skeevy of Tabata for approving of his and Nomura's craziness.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So the old woman discussion got me thinking.

Are there any old women in Final Fantasy games (feel free to include spin-offs) that:

1.) Are not immortals who look like they're 20-30.
2.) Are more than an NPC with a few lines of dialog. Major characters, playable characters, minor characters, it's all fine as long as they have some relevance to the plot and aren't just this person you walk by who goes "Hey Sonny, in my day we got our mail from the mailbox!" or only appears in a crowd shot.

I'll extend it to people in their mid 30s or older (even though this isn't actually old) since that's the age a lot of the male party members hit, though we did have Strago at 70.

I was gonna say Minfilia's mom from XIV, but...not really.

 

[Ray Down]

That explains it. I only remember hearing Toriyama's name thrown about regarding the game, probably because he already had XIII fresh in everyone's memory and Tabata's reputation was less established.

All three of them being complicit with that kind of thing is pretty skeevy.

Well Tabata rep only really started with Crisis Core, since he really only did a phone game that came out only in Japan.

 

[gosoxtim]

Nomura wrote Larxene, Namine, Xion, Aqua...Kairi is the only odd woman out in regards to the whole franchise actually.

Stella was going to be his first major female character in a game he created made outside of KH, who he put on a pedestal as being equal to Noctis as OP points out, but...we're getting Luna from Tabata.

Nomura is generally a character designer. He makes what they brainstorm in his designs. Even though he has had a few missteps, i think his designs for the most part FF wise have been on point for the past 20 years. I really enjoyed his designs in FFX and FF10 in particular.

i cant wait see kairi new design full reveal in the new picture that was for the kingdom hearts x third aniviersity

 

[Inuhanyou]

Actually NOMURA is the one who came up with all the clothing damage stuff in 3rd Birthday. He's the one who drew that art you posted too.

He doesn't have a good track record with female characters outside of Aqua at all but that tends to be ignored for some reason.

Nomura wrote Larxene, Namine, Xion, Aqua...Kairi is the only odd woman out in regards to the whole franchise actually.

Stella was going to be his first major female character in a game he created made outside of KH, who he put on a pedestal as being equal to Noctis as OP points out, but...we're getting Luna from Tabata.

Nomura is generally a character designer. He makes what they brainstorm in his designs. Even though he has had a few missteps, i think his designs for the most part FF wise have been on point for the past 20 years. I really enjoyed his designs in FFX and FF10 in particular.

 

[Garlador]

Aya Brea was always a sex symbol, they just reserved most of that for the marketing.

That's official Squaresoft art right there. My guess is they just saved the larger scale adaptation of it for when the hardware could finally do it justice.

As I said above, regardless of marketing, none of that was in the actual product they put out. Nomura did a ton of "nearly naked" (or entirely) pin-ups of Aya Brea for the game, but it's not accurate to how she's treated, viewed, or behaves in the original game itself.

It reminds me of a few times Hollywood tried to market films with very little sex appeal or normal-sized women with sexy advertisements or created posters that gave their lead actresses bigger chests (this stuff still happens, beyond my comprehension). That's a discredit to the marketing team, because the actual film itself is not indicative of what they were selling (or the women they were showing us).

Parasite Eve is a great game, and Aya Brea really deserved better marketing material than "and now here are various pictures of me without my shirt on" that Nomura went overboard with.

So the old woman discussion got me thinking.

Are there any old women in Final Fantasy games (feel free to include spin-offs) that:

1.) Are not immortals who look like they're 20-30.
2.) Are more than an NPC with a few lines of dialog. Major characters, playable characters, minor characters, it's all fine as long as they have some relevance to the plot and aren't just this person you walk by who goes "Hey Sonny, in my day we got our mail from the mailbox!" or only appears in a crowd shot.

If we can't come up with old ladies, I'll extend it to people in their mid 30s or older (even though this isn't actually old) since that's the age a lot of the male party members hit (Auron, Steiner, Basch), though we did have Strago at 70.

Final Fantasy XIV has a few, actually.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

sexy =/= sexist.

No said one said it meant that.

 

[Slater]

That's well and good to point out, but then who is responsible for its inclusion? The Director or the Character Designer? Tabata clearly approved of it getting into his game.

I can't think of a list of what he's done in terms of original creation, but in terms of visual designs, Nomura has worked on Aerith, Terra, Yuffie, Lightning, Tifa, Yuna and Aqua.

Those are pretty good and unlike the shitty 3rd Birthday and Cindy designs.

Visual designs isn't really what I'm taking about, more writing but true I don't at all mean his designs are blatant like that across the board.

BUT Cindy is a holdover Versus design Tabata inherited, we know this for a fact, Nomura approved of her AND Areana.

Except Nomura's Areana didn't have pants just a crotch leotard thing while she pole danced on her spear which Tabata got rid of. Nomura's rep get's propped up by Aqua a lot is what I saying

 

[Mesoian]

It's a cultural incongruity that more Japanese developers should make themselves aware of. There should be roles for female characters in games that aren't tropes like being a sexy villainess or a princess to be rescued.

Real talk though: How do we do that?

I mean, seriously, how do we bring up the differences and similarities in culture without having a project turn into a Kojima-esque movie reference fest? Because it's sort of the problem with a lot of games, most memorably Metro, which paints over a lot of western European cultural sensitivities with "LOL IT'S THE POST APOCOLYPSE WHO CARES?!!"

I feel like we're still at the point where the people who are making our consumable media are the ones who grew up playing with transformers and Gi-joes, cool shit but that had very little to no female involvement. And in Japan, we have people who are having their debut who grew up on stuff like Tenjo Tenge and Mouse, shit that has strong female protagonists....wearing next to nothing and begging for sex at any given moment.

It's real tough to figure out what the cultural parallels are. Hell, one could say that Final fantasy games were doing a pretty damn good job adhering to those parallels until the last 5 years when the economy got real and FF13 and friends tanked.

Man, I hope we can't point back to the turning point of all that good shit and find that it rested solely on the unstable shoulders of Lightning's insanity. "THEY DIDN'T LIKE 13! ALL BOYS NOW! STU SNYDER THIS BITCH UP!"

Don't want that...

 

[fr0st]

How many major female character after there in XV?

I haven't been fooling the game that much.

 

[Nya]

Dropping my two cents about Luna that I posted in the other thread, I have no comment about Cindy because yeah she is an embarrassing character.

I've watched the trailer and I've been keeping my Luna opinion to myself up until this moment. From a woman's point of view, here are my two cents about her.

Do I think Luna is weak? No, but I don't think they're properly highlighting the traits that make her an independent or a strong character, especially in Kingsglaive, but even then you can see signs of her not being your average spoiled princess. She has a role, a duty, and a purpose to exist for and she knows that very well.

She might not have the fighting ability that Noctis has but so far I've seen her show more emotional strength and determination than Noctis ever did. She surpasses Noctis in being emotionally independent and aware of what she must do in order to save the world and prevent it from falling in an everlasting darkness, while Noctis is literally just moping around having no idea what to do to the point where even Gladio calls him out on it and actually calling him "useless" despite his powers and abilities. As opposed to Noctis, Luna is actually loved and respected by the public as an Oracle. If anything, the footage I've seen so far paints Noctis as the spoiled prince, not Luna who has seen far more shit than Noctis ever did.

Her emotions and feelings towards Noctis doesn't make her weak and I find the notion of that is ridiculous, as being strong doesn't mean being immune to love and care for someone for a long time (especially someone who she kept contact with during her captivity, its only natural she'd develop such feelings for him). Also, we haven't really seen her interact with Noctis, so we don't know if she acts like a doormat around him.

As for Luna being slapped or being abused since childhood, the very fact that she still held her ground despite all of that shows a great deal of strength to me. The thing is, there are a lot of ways a character can be strong and Luna displays more of an emotional strength and independent mindset than your typical kind of strength that a character like Lightening shows for instance. Even Aqua, the character people praise for being strong, had her fair share of weakness and was almost impaled by Ventis but that didn't make her a weak character because that's not what classifies a character as weak.

What I am trying to say, is that she isn't another "Princess Peach", she isn't there to be a trophy to Noctis. She is a respected Oracle with a very important task of holding back the Plague of the Stars, who bravely stood her ground against Leviathan and the Niflheim.

The game isn't out yet, she might end up a very underwhelming character or she might actually surprise everyone, but saying she is weak based on few incidents while ignoring other things is not fair.

 

[PolishQ]

So the old woman discussion got me thinking.

Are there any old women in Final Fantasy games (feel free to include spin-offs) that:

1.) Are not immortals who look like they're 20-30.
2.) Are more than an NPC with a few lines of dialog. Major characters, playable characters, minor characters, it's all fine as long as they have some relevance to the plot and aren't just this person you walk by who goes "Hey Sonny, in my day we got our mail from the mailbox!" or only appears in a crowd shot.

If we can't come up with old ladies, I'll extend it to people in their mid 30s or older (even though this isn't actually old) since that's the age a lot of the male party members hit (Auron, Steiner, Basch), though we did have Strago at 70.

The only one I can think of right now is Hope's mom in FFXIII, and she's probably 35 at most, and dies 5 minutes after being introduced.

 

[Mediking]

How many major female character after there in XV?

I haven't been fooling the game that much.

Lemme see.... Genti, Luna, Cidney... Aranea.....

But... if you ask me based off my prediction... Genti, Luna, Cidney, Aranea,

Spoiler

Noctis' mom turns out to be alive

 

[Mesoian]

How many major female character after there in XV?

I haven't been fooling the game that much.

Maybe 2? We don't know. We won't until the game is out.

My money is on Cidney not being one. And to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't expect to see too much Luna or Arenea either.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Visual designs isn't really what I'm taking about, more writing but true I don't at all mean his designs are blatant like that across the board.

BUT Cindy is a holdover Versus design Tabata inherited, we know this for a fact, Nomura approved of her AND Areana.

Except Nomura's Areana didn't have pants just a crotch leotard thing while she pole danced on her spear which Tabata got rid of. Nomura's rep get's propped up by Aqua a lot is what I saying

That was Roberto ferrari's design, not Nomura's. Even then, we never saw Cindy's design in game to know how she was portrayed or what she even looked like at the time.

Araena wasn't even a character, just a faceless bad guy designed for a one off battle. She became an ascended extra because of her place in the fandom over the years.

People do give Nomura shit, but he went back and checked himself and gave Tifa a great redesign for AC that was 100x better than her original outfit while still being practical as feck.