And even Bay was more tasteful with camera angles in Pearl Harbour at least
Just why
On Final Fantasy XV and female characters
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
Just why
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yup. This is why I'd have no hope for the female representation in that game. They're utterly clueless.
So which is it?
The game is focused on a male bonding story/road trip, so female representation doesn't matter much since women are not the target audience... but the males they do have are fanservicey towards young female fans, so women are the target audience after all?
If they wanted a game that appealed to women by having a boy band male cast (*shudders*), why not make the female characters more appealing to a female audience then, instead of a useless wench and some eye candy?
I think it's a mistake to compare a 20+ year old game to modern Square Enix games, considering how much they devolved in terms of not only quality characters but gender representation too. Of course, there is also the argument that Celes' imprisonment wasn't used in marketing (maybe not to give the wrong impression, in fact?), whereas Cindi's T&A and Luna's helplessness were.Exactly. I think we might have drawn the same conclusion about Celes in FFVI if the marketing machine back in the day kept showing us this scene before release:
But in the end after playing the game I don't think anyone really saw Celes as some sort of punching bag character
Fantastic post. And you really highlight why I've always been disappointed by FF female characters. I always liked Rydia and Celes, but I would have liked them more and taken them more seriously if they had not been wearing swimsuits. It's also telling that, compared to several modern JRPGs, their dress is really quite tame and even conservative in comparison. -_-
I give Tifa a pass because she is a fighter, and she's going to wear loose clothes, even though a miniskirt is pretty telling(apparently they originally had her in bike shorts but don't quote me on that) and they did go above and beyond with her AC outfit.
But what purpose is there to turn Yuna into a hot pants wearing pop idol singing charlies angels wannabe in FFX-2? And RIkku was even worse than Yuna. In FFX, despite some questionable camera angles at times and...a few small outfit gripes(her swimming gear, which i guess was semi excusable)..Rikku was largely played straight as a character and her outfit was fine for most of the game. And Yuna had almost zero sex appeal whatsoever in her design.
Then again, i hated FFX-2 for basically every reason, but those were up there.
But what purpose is there to turn Yuna into a hot pants wearing pop idol singing charlies angels wannabe in FFX-2? And RIkku was even worse than Yuna. In FFX, despite some questionable camera angles at times and...a few small outfit gripes(her swimming gear, which i guess was semi excusable)..Rikku was largely played straight as a character and her outfit was fine for most of the game. And Yuna had almost zero sex appeal whatsoever in her design.
Then again, i hated FFX-2 for basically every reason, but those were up there.
Well, guy. You convinced me.
We really need more of this in our games.
This represents reality much better and caters to literally nobody.
Very helpful. Solid point.
It's the Japanese answer to most things that revolve around character design.
"Let's cater to the people who are actually spending the most amount of money on our products, the ultra enthusiast who is going to objectify every single character because ultimately, to them, shipping is going to more interesting and more fun than whatever story we have planned for the game."
Because those are the people wasting their money buying Final Fantasy branded cologne because it comes in a potion bottle.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Well, guy. You convinced me.
We really need more of this in our games.
This represents reality much better, doesn't objectify women in any way, and caters to literally nobody.
You are totally missing the point.
Like, good job.
Also why characters need to cater to anyone...
It's a freaking joke. My God! The tension in here is palpable! xD
Just why
The tan lines on top of everything else always get me.
Well, guy. You convinced me.
We really need more of this in our games.
This represents reality much better, doesn't objectify women in any way, and caters to literally nobody.
Do you have some kind of problem with what is being said here? We just want to have some female characters that are good and represented well and in a non embarrassing manner. Hell i've said more than once i don't even care that much about semi sexy designs if the character themselves are worth anything. But there are plenty of things to critique in FF15 in regards to the promotional footage and Kingsglaive in regards to women that are valid concerns.
You being a troll doesn't change that. Also, what you said doesn't sound like a joke at all.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Is not like we didn't saw similar real arguments.
Sorry I didn't catch the sarcastic smiley in your post.
Come back once you actually know those characters, please?
You have concerns (which is fine), but you take what little you know about those characters and attribute absolutes. That's pretty wrong in my book, yes.
Just why
Aside from the obvious, what the hell is Noctis doing to that car?
That picture wasn't sarcastic enough? xD
...You do realize that Kingsglaive is out right?
Pinko Marx
Banned
Well, guy. You convinced me.
We really need more of this in our games.
This represents reality much better, doesn't objectify women in any way, and caters to literally nobody.
This is some juvenile poppycock right here right here.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That's a much stronger design than the original Cidney so yea it's a wonder, especially considering they were willing to straight up change the culture of an entire city due to fan feedback.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Relaxed Muscle
Member
No, we had (have) people that used a very similar narrative. Believe me, talking about better female representation in gaming brings some very nasty people.
I'm glad you aren't one of those.
Looks like he's in mid-battle pose for some reason.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Of all the fan feedback they took, they couldn't take something about their shitty character design?
Don't rush to conclusions. We haven't had a whole game in which to get to know him.
We all have concerns, that's what this thread is about. We're talking about the game as we know it right now. I've said before that i hope the final product can change my mind 100% about the characters, and hope they end up being completely different from my current impressions, but people are speculating and talking about the materials we have, and based on that, there are concerns.
He's in mid battle pose. The player can move the camera to look at Cindy poking her ass out over the car in many poses. I don't know why they would have included that if they were going to have Cindy poster girl car DLC anyway, but whatever.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Let's get real, like it or hate it, there was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more positive feedback about Cidney than negative. Most people love the design, even if it is objectifying.
The real question is, is Cidney going to get more than 5 minutes of screen time in a 40 hour RPG? Was her entire inclusion simply another marketing ploy to get people more interested in the overall project? Is she the inconsequential cheesecake slipped in at the last minute to keep people talking, even though people keep telling me "sex doesn't sell"?
We'll see in 60 days.
Oh they get it.
They just don't care. And that is their right.
JayBabay
Member
Just why
Every time I see this I ask myself the same thing. Like, there is no excuse or reason for that, especially the tan lines. Doesn't feel Final Fantasy/serious/thematic at all. Any argument for defending a characters portrayal until the final release loses so much ground because of shit like this.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Luna is hard to completely nail down because of her potential story outcomes.
Cindy is transparent as can be and easy as shit to nail down. Come on.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I thought that people liked the design, but not the clothes, like the character is fine, but the fanservicey clothe aren't?
If you look at the comment they made regarding Cindy clothes, I'm sure they don't get it at all.
KenzinFive
Member
Me: "Maybe I'm being too harsh by being annoyed at FFXV for having an all-male cast that all dress in the same color. Maybe it's a game with lots of redeeming qual-"
I don't know why I'm kinda OK with Persona's swimsuit fan service, but really frustrated at this. Maybe it's because FF was generally held to a higher standard?
I'm worried it's gonna be a Quiet situation where people before the release are assuming there will be a good reason why she's in a bikini, and then she has embarassing and gratuitous shower scenes and fanservice shots in the final product.
At least stuff like Senran Kagura knows it's a tits-and-ass game and revels in it. I can at least respect that.
Just why
I don't know why I'm kinda OK with Persona's swimsuit fan service, but really frustrated at this. Maybe it's because FF was generally held to a higher standard?
I'm worried it's gonna be a Quiet situation where people before the release are assuming there will be a good reason why she's in a bikini, and then she has embarassing and gratuitous shower scenes and fanservice shots in the final product.
At least stuff like Senran Kagura knows it's a tits-and-ass game and revels in it. I can at least respect that.
Just why
Not arguing against people's issues with Cindy's design but is there like a specific camera button that automatically goes to these camera angles?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I like having a female Cid. I like the character design as it pertains to things like her face, and her personality. I don't like the sexy animations, I hate the clothes and I despise the accent.
I'm fairly willing to bet when the game comes out, that's going to be a very common sentiment among reviewers and fans.
I really don't know Cidney involvement with the plot, she may be the main Cid but we also got old Cid around who upgrades weapons and has more story connection with Noctis see how he was basically Regis bro during the war. She may just tow your car if it runs out of gas, I think that what her scenes in the Uncovered trailer are.
My favourite female characters in the series are Rydia, Faris, Terra, Celes and Garnet.
I understand the concerns. I enjoy an original take on characters just like the next guy. Male or female. But there are sexy person in real life, and I don't expect sexy characters to not be a part of media. People usually like seeing beautiful people, and that's not likely to change anytime soon.
But I have to say that I really enjoyed FF IX for its characters. Although they were stereotypical, they weren't all beautiful. Steiner, Quina and Brahne for example were ugly, and that was a nice change for the series. In fact, I think FF IX is the best example of a cast of character done right. Diversified, strong female characters, unique designs that aren't sexualized, etc... Nomura's characters tend to be overly perfect looking magazine models. And it got old after FF VIII.
But again, until I've played the actual game, and got to know the characters, I can't pass a definitive judgement. So far, I think people are overreacting, which isn't unexpected in this day and age, and especially online. You have women who are offended by that kind of things, and then you have those who are perfectly fine with what's been shown of those characters so far. Who among them are right?
See, I feel like that's a basic contradiction.
Because without the outfit, what makes Cidney different from the Chocobo rancher? As far as we know now, they're both inconsequential NPC's that have a very minute unimportant purpose.
The difference being, we're still talking about Cidney, and no one remembers the Chocobo Rancher's name. Cidney IS that outfit, because as of now, there's literally nothing else to her.
Tbc, I share that pessimism and I've seen much less of the content surrounding the game than most people here. Just wanted to encourage thinking beyond the superficial critiques you often see in these sort of discussions.
...
As to the dressing stuff...It is more pronounced and obviously directed at the male gaze with female characters, but it is not as if your typical male character strikes someone as super vain and attentive at dressing himself, but they certainly look that way. JRPGs are incredibly visually oriented and style doesn't always comport with substance, but JRPG is not going to typically let that get in the way.
Does Sepiroth really have time to jell his hair every morning and get those bangs? Does he really fucking care? No. Does it look a certain sort of cool? Yes.
The problem is cool with women is taken to be various ways of looking good to the male gaze.
Neoleo2143
Member
Well, guy. You convinced me.
We really need more of this in our games.
This represents reality much better, doesn't objectify women in any way, and caters to literally nobody.
Joke or not, I think that could potentially be a compelling character. Also, I think there was a pokemon character design like this. If not you had some grandma in some game.
I really like Pokemon's character design.
cm osi
Member
no, you have to place it manually to get that visual. so...don't do it? i get that you may not like this kind of fanservice but this particular gif is not some cutscene, it's just the player carefully placing noctis and the camera, because he wants to.
Yeah, we will all be ashamed of our words and deeds ... eventually.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I used to not think it was a big deal because FF has generally always had great female characters but the more I see this game the more I feel the treatment of the female characters as window dressing or pure sex appeal to be really un-FF like. I can only hope it's a symptom of the game not being out yet forcing me to come to this conclusion but so far every hint has shown the female characters - particularly Cindy - in really, really provocative positions that don't really seem FF to me and more otaku aimed.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Cidney is the female Cid, she is not just a doll with revealing clothes, that should be enough, well, being "Cid" was enough for most "Cid" in the past game.
She could have got more unique clothes, that wasn't pure male gaze material. You know like every other male Cid in the series.
Neoleo2143
Member
Perfect.
Precisely.
My bet is, in the main game, Cidney's role is going to be so reduced that we're all going to question ourselves why we made such a big deal out of, what turned out to be, a piece of tasteless marketing. Just like Tracer's booty.
I feel like we're all getting upset at the girl in the bikini holding the beer and, in doing so, we're continuing to follow the same stumblings we have whenever someone tries to market their game in a tasteless way; by getting lost in the idea that a girl in a skimpy outfit is a bad thing rather than questioning whether the minds behind all this stuff really are making a product that represents you (the consumer).
But there IS another male Cid in the series. One that, according to the first demo, is still more important than Cidney.
My point is, here entire existence is straight up gaze material, tot he point where she won't be significant or meaningful in the game AT ALL, and if so, all she ever was was a marketing ploy that, let's face it, got all of us hook line and sinker.
Which, for the record, is still gross, but is endemic of a much larger problem.
Even better (because Braun's design is meant to make her unsympathetic)
Ashe is a wonderful character.Clearly one of the stronger female characters in the series.
Yes she is somewhat scantily clad,but the game treats her with utmost respect and she is a powerful figure in her world.
Vlaphor
Member
Because that is hot as fuck, that's why.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Just why
Very disappointing to see this. I expect better from numbered FF games.
They place her in those poses because they know the player is going to zoom in. And even if you don't agree with that, in the normal duscae directed cutscenes, there is a lot of leering over the car and panning shots to her body in general, similar to the Michael bay movies.
agentofatlas
Member
The guy you quoted is right. Her clothes and mannerisms are part of her design and since we don't have the game yet, it's what's separates her from generic npcs.
As far as other Cid design goes, her clothes are pretty unique like past Cids. So I don't really get your point.