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Overwatch |OT10| That'll do pig, that'll do
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TheThinWhiteDuke
Member
It means Stephen Hawking- all evidence to the contrary- would be AWESOME at Overwatch.
If you're a functional human being OW should be easy
Nocturnowl
Member
This reminds me of a similar situation yesterday against a five stack that were rocking very accurate Widow, Hanzo and McCree, we dropped point A of Anubis fast.
I was trying to practice Doomfist myself here since I finally got him locked in but I swiftly realised that it was a lost cause, switched to Orisa at point B and the shield completely shut them down, fortunately none of the other team wanted to try and actually heal each other or counter pick in favour of sticking with team sick snipes.
Went from constant one shot deaths to a 20 kill streak, felt wonderful to turn the tables like that.
Incendiary
Banned
For some reason I envision this as a Trump tweet.
Doomfist is def not a great hero to play as in solo q. He's like a glass cannon and requires some form of coordination with people or at least a team that plays in an organized manner. His Ult is actually a lot harder to kill with than I expected. Seemed easier during PTR but for some reason everyone knows how to dodge it now. def need dat Zarya Ult to work.
Psychoward
Banned
Doomfist is more fun to play in Doomfist Elim than in actual regular games....
Yup, or just regular Elims.
Agreed. It's like instant deathmatch.
Nocturnowl
Member
I could never quite work out how to initiate with him in solo play, just spent a lot of time ambling around waiting for a moment to actually help.
I'm gonna be so sad when that mode leaves, it's been a ton of fun for me and makes the arcade box grind a lot easier.
Yea, I find him even harder to survive with than Genji. His goddamn hitbox is so large that Sombra can just pump me full of lead from afar to kill me, lol
Moonmoon and Loserfruit
Maybe if it was No Limits I would agree but I didn't like doom elim at all
I like playing on the actual full maps in QP more so then 3 min matches in maps I know I will never play again until I"m bored a new character is locked behind it.
Phara's rockets function like many other rockets in FPS (at least in non power weapon fashion). Yes she does splash damage without a direct hit; but its significantly lower than that of a direct hit which is the exact opposite of how scatter arrow functions. A direct hit with scatter leads to less damage than an instant kill scatter thats right in front of a person. Phara's rocket isn't comparable to that ability because the damage drop off is significant and rewards solid aim for actually hitting your target. Junkrats grenades function exactly how most grenade luanchers work in FPS games; they also require him to hit you with them to do damage so again, not like scatter arrow and not unlike other FPS shooters. Turrets are fine, they dont one shot you and are an essential part of Tjborn which requires set up before a confrontation, otherwise its useless because they'll shoot them down before you can set up. Orisa's grav doesn't do damage to you and requires her to hit the button a second time to activate so it also requires timing. Winston and Sym require getting in at extremely close range; the former doing very little damage without the jump and the latter doing more damage over time as her primary charges but also only has 200 health. None of these examples break the mold or go against my arguments about FPS games and Hanzo's scatter being broken. I pointed out earlier that its the only outlier in the game where it doesn't require a direct hit and elads to an instant kill. All of the above examples are nothing close to scatter arrow and more to the point, have been incldued in FPS games before and are balanced for the playstyles of this game. Whats another FPS where a non power/non killstreak/ultimate (IE normal weapon/ability) kills someone without requiring an actual hit from the original shot?Maybe the Noob tube but given its name and how much everyone hated it, I'd say that only strengthens the argument.
And yes as I said, I have less of a problem of how it functions as I do with the outcome. Yes there is an RNG element that is undeniably in scatter arrow and youre the only one who is saying otherwise; theres tons of video to back that up. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9wXjbGFD3c). Theres an RNG element.Again, it can do indirect damage. It can do 195 damage for all I care. The issue is its an insta kill ability for an indriect hit. All of your examples are so disingenuously obscuring the argument because nothing functions like it. Phara shooting a concussion blast only kills if its an environment kill. Only under that condition can it kill and more to the point, it doesn't even do damage. Its knock back ability and functions as it should. I'll repeat it for you but I've never thought or claimed anything in this game was unfair to the point as scatter. It has RNG elements (It does like Idk what else to say about it), it doesn't require an actual precision shot which is what snipers should be trying to pull off, and it insta kills. There is nothing else in this game that is comparable to that ability.
Youre not understanding pro play if youre arguing that hes situationally viable. I never said he wasn't situational but thats why you dont see him; hes situational. He has parts on maps to play but almost any other pick brings you a much more viable character that has more potential to consistently get you picks and 5V6 advantages in EVERY situation. Again this means nothing regarding the imbalance of scatter and more to the fact that Pros playing DPS have such a higher ceiling than that of a sniper in this game.
QP, gold, silver, plat- all levels and modes I wouldn't expect to find someone who is consistently excellent with Hanzo. But that doesn't even matter because Scatter gives you easy kills anyway. Its a crutch for a character who otherwise would require a ton of skill to be good with but thats much more suitable for a sniper than an instantkill non direct one shot ability imo.
I'm not exaggerating on shooting behind cover and getting a one hit, it happens all the time to me on attack Hanamura when I'm behind the choke and he launches one out the gate. I have no isse with his ability to flush people out of cover I have issue with that ability one shotting. He absolutly does not need line of sight to get kills with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR6EDZY1Sv4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XorrRS2eFQ
There are tons of videos like this where characters are getting killed by that ability who are not in Hanzo's line of sight. The chances for that to be happening should be 0, not rare, 0. No other ability in this game functions like Hanzo's scatter arrow in that it can straight up kill you on its own (IE non environmental) in one hit without a direct hit in the first place. Any suggestion that there are is a disingenuous position to be taking.
TheDrizzlerJ11
Member
I've seen a scatter arrow go from the defending point A on kings Row, off the statue 90 degrees, and then headshots a widow in the spawn top window.
The move needs a rework. I vote poison arrows, remove headshot ability. It's just 3 stackable poisonous shards that'll do 150 hp over 5 second or something. They can stack too, but the headshots with scatter are the biggest problem with it imo. One shorting an Orissa being the #2.
The move needs a rework. I vote poison arrows, remove headshot ability. It's just 3 stackable poisonous shards that'll do 150 hp over 5 second or something. They can stack too, but the headshots with scatter are the biggest problem with it imo. One shorting an Orissa being the #2.
It would have to be less coherent.
We'll win the comp, the comp won't be a problem and we'll win. There will be doomfists and I've been a doomfist longer than any of the doomfist and people ask me about doomfist and I tell them look, you punch and you win and no one wins like Owzers. Owzers wins big with the doomfist, terrific doomfist and everyone knows that, Gaf more than anyone knows this, they say Great Doomfist.
Although that's too long for a tweet, would have to be a serious interview.
Honestly I just vote no more one shots. Keep everything else as is. He just shouldn't be getting one hit kills in the manner that the ability currently operates.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
That sombra you played with sounds like me.
What do you expect to happen when you learn a character with Quickplay? You get good at the mechanics and positioning, but the only thing you can do with EMP in quick play is use it when you got it. It's taking some time to remove that habit of throwing it out wherever.
You're throwing out a lot of arbitrary rules for why one is okay and the other isn't. Particularly the traditionalist response confuses me. Why does it matter that Junkrat's grenade spam functions like a lot of grenade spam in other games if the principle of your argument is that shots that a player hasn't intentionally aimed at you are wrong to include in an FPS?
I just don't see what the core principle of your argument is. "Instakill indirects are not okay under ANY circumstances...unless it's an environmental kill. Or it's been done in other games. Or if they need to be close to do it. Or, or, or..." and so on.
You're confusing my argument a little. I'm saying that reliably instakilling with scatter arrow doesn't have much RNG because to do so, you need to aim at a specific location in relation to your enemy. A kill like that is different from kills like these:
Look at the health of the Lucio in the first video, and look at the percentage of the elim that Hanzo got in the second.
Those are only 1 hit kills because those players were already on the verge of dying. Had they been at full health, they'd barely have even noticed the damage. And that's why I don't see a difference between this and other examples, like a turret or a random grenade. I can agree that those players died to a randomness factor, but if you're on low enough health, then EVERYTHING is a one shot kill.
My point is that you can call a scatter arrow a 1 shot kill at full health characters, but that's only if you aim it at a specific location and the player isn't smart enough to counter it OR you can call it an RNG ability that kills players who can't see it coming if they're unlucky enough to be in low health where they'd be killed from being sneezed at anyway. You can't say that it's an instakill AND RNG at the same time as if a single random shard is a death sentence 95% of the time.
Not to mention, kills like those happen ALL the time, from all kinds of weapons and abilities. Again, the nature of the game is that they allow you to spam fire freely and you get luckly kills and unlucky deaths from all sorts of situations where someone just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time with no intentional aiming or skill on part of the player. If you think that should NEVER happen, then I don't know what to tell you, because this isn't the game for you. Even Soldiers randomly spam their fire in a general direction for no reason other than that maybe someone will come around the corner and sometimes someone does and is on low enough health to die from a single bullet.
I'm not sure why you think I'm trying to put words into your mouth. I'm not saying you said anything, I'm just saying that you're not giving me logic that I can apply exclusively to Scatter Arrow. I agree that it's a unique ability, but that can be said of several abilities in the game because the entire point of the game is that each hero has their own unique abilities. But the thrust of the principle of every argument you've given me can be applied to several other abiltiies, because there are other abiltiies that are either 1. indirect, 2. can instakill you, 3, you can't see coming, etc, so when I point that out, you have to atleast amend your argument to juggle why those are all okay, but scatter isn't.
And in my opinion, these amendments are flimsy and arbitrary. I can't see why I would care that Junkrat's grenade launcher functions like other grenade launchers do in other games if the principle of the argument was that I don't like abilities that kill me with indirect hits. Why would I care that it's an environmental kill if the principle of the argument is that indirect kills shouldn't be an insta-kill? And if we include things that kill us at low health as 'instakill' abilities, then a lot of uncontrollable attacks are instakill RNG BS. Essentially your argument is slowly becoming "Scatter Arrow is bullshit because it is an indirect, non-environmental, long-distance, easy, instakill shot that also has a RNG factor that can kill you if you're close to dying, attached to an otherwise precision based character and hasn't been featured in many other games" And those are a lot of qualifiers to have to specifically make before deciding the ability is wrong.
Either way, suffice to say, we can agree to disagree. I do not see anything wrong with the ability. I don't think that the small RNG factor is in any way significant since it only really makes a difference in very specific circumstances, and while it's powerful, it can be played around a lot of the time. Other times, you just die and can't do anything about it, I agree, but that's the nature of the game and I'm fine with it.
Carl-Sagan
Member
- Jacklz -- Grandmaster Junkrat main
- J3sus -- DPS for Renegades
- PvP -- Grandmaster Junkrat Main
- Mendokusaii -- DPS/Inactive Cloud9 Player
- Valkia -- Top 500 Pharah Main
- Gale Adelade -- Top 500 Ana/DPS
- Kephrii -- Top 500 Widowmaker Main
- Customabilities -- Grandmaster Zenyatta Main
- Miso -- CLG's Flex/Tank Player
- Moonmoon_Ow -- Grandmaster Tank Main
- Vale -- Top 500 Mercy Main
- Eevee_A -- Top 500 Mercy One Trick
- Stevoo -- Top 500 Symmetra One Trick
- Star2d2 -- Master/Grandmaster Mercy One Trick
- Fuey500 -- Top 500 Torb One Trick
- Cloneman16 -- Top 500 Tank Main
- Calvin -- Top 500 DPS Main
- Emongg -- Selfless's Flex Player; team is now disbanded
- Surefour -- Cloud9's DPS Player
- XQC -- Arc6's Tank Player
Here is all who I have followed on Twitch. Who do I watch the most? EeveeA, Vale, Moonmoon, Calvin, Cloneman, and Emongg mostly. I also watch a bit of Seagull but only when he's streaming. I didn't include him in the list since you knew about him. As for YouTube channels, I don't really follow anyone in particular besides Skyline.
Incendiary
Banned
The problem is that a trophy is associated with the scatter arrow ability - unlike say, Symmetra who was able to have a rework because her trophies were associated with turrets and teleporter (neither of which were removed from her move set), Hanzo's trophy/achievement for killing two people with one scatter shot becomes impossible if the scatter arrow is removed from his toolkit.
The easiest solution (that I've proposed before) is to change the angles on the scatter arrow so that they don't all break the same direction when it hits. That prevents the one-shotting of tanks but keeps the scatter element/closed-space-clearing of his ability, which is what the ability is supposed to do anyway.
I'd vote for you.
sonycowboy
Member
I see a ton of folks hiding at entry points with their fist charged waiting for someone to come through. Not the way I think he's intended to be played. They do get some cheap ass kills out of it, but pretty cowardly and not particularly contributory to a team winning overall
therealminime
Member
I didn't realize Zarya no longer got charge for shielding teammates when they fall off the map. When did that change?
It was one of those undocumented changes that went up some time ago.
The shards from a scatter arrow can't apply headshot damage multiplier to anyone.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Alright my bender is over. I'm ready to relax with some Overwatch tonight.
therealminime
Member
TheThinWhiteDuke
Member
YouTubers: Stylosa (he's that kinda annoying, kinda endearing friend everyone has)
Muselk, Bazza, and Tyrodin
Twitch: Boombox, Zzyzx, Kelvin711, Custaa, Blinky- so mainly Zen mains.
Don't know if you know about this site, or if it's been posted, but it can be a lifesaver when you're looking for new Overwatch Twitch streamers to watch:
https://streamhive.com/filters/overwatch-streams
It updates minute to minute, and you can filter by hero, rank, and language.
Nocturnowl
Member
As far as lurking goes I've found it more useful hanging around with my support and then punching the heck out of the inevitable Tracer/Genji that comes after them.
I do find the character really damn fun.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Charging up a rocket punch before people turn a corner and canceling if they don't seems to be a legit strat from I've seen from pro players playing him on stream in quick play.
People probably just need to learn to be careful going around corners if they ever hear doomfist charge up and they don't know where he is.
I like watching Jimbenator's stuff and haven't seen him mentioned yet. He tends to keep things pretty light-hearted and positive.
My argument is shots that aren't resulting in a direct hit that additionally one shots you are bullshit. You keep coming up with examples that continue to not fit that description. Junk rat can fire grenades over areas into players that they didn't see-but do you take damage from them even if they don't hit you? No, they have to hit you. Do they kill you in one shot? No they don't. Further theyre much easier to dodge and know when its coming than a Hanzo scatter. I'm really not being obtuse with my stipulation for why Scatter is unfair. You just keep looking for all these examples in the game that fall into a similar function when there aren't any.
Environmental kills can be avoided by knowing positioning and the attacks that could cause those types of deaths IE Lucio boop and Phara concussion rocket, can't kill you if you avoid areas of the mpa that would result in death if pushed off. So for example, lijang you never go over the birdge when pushing point so as to avoid either of the aformentioned environment kills; they depend on you being in a position that would result in a one shot and their own ability is insufficient by itself in actually killing you. Hanzo Scatter can kill you, one shot, regardless of environment or position. Your examples are continuously disingenuous as to why I take issue with scatter arrow. Now youve tried to say knowing Hanzo's position will mitigate scatter but thats not entirely true. The viedos I posted (and countless other ones) show that Hanzo doesn't even have to fire in your direction to get a kill off scatter. In your examples, without putting myself in a position to be pushed off the map, those abilities canno't instan kill me.
Yes I'm aware that in the Lucio video he had little health. That was to your argument that you have to be in Hanzo's line of sight to be killed by scatter; clearly that isn't the case. Further in the second video, Junkrat was killed on lijang coming out of spawn with full health by a scatter while 100% not in Hanzo's line of sight. If you want, I could easily find more to support that claim but to that example should be enough to dispell your notion that you have to be in his line of sight for it to one shot you with full life; it doesn't..
I never said anything about the percentage of time but I can absolutely say that there are RNG components to scatter because literally everyone in this game understands that it has RNG functionality but you, apparently. That doesn't also mean that there are spots that it reliably kills that aren't based on RNG; its well known shooting the ground in front of someone is pretty much a one hit. But there are very clearly cases where the RNG results in one hits as well that are quite distinct from throwing an ana grenade from spawn or shooting junkrats greandes over a building; those throws and abilities while performed blind still adhere to a set of in game physics unlike the RNG nature of the ensuing scatter shot arrows (And additionally don't kill on their own with one hit). They aren't mutually exclusive. So saying kills like that happen all the time isn't really true when an RNG ability is triggering deaths while no such thing is happening when an Ana throws a grenade high into the sky and it kills from spawn. Thats a huge distinction.
No I don't have to amend my argument because your examples of other abilities one shotting are not the same as scatter. At all. You keep trying to shoehorn other abilities like concussion shots in with scatter but those are dependant on being in the right position. Scatter can kill regardless of where you are on the map so long as you don't have 400+ life (and even then you can kill Orisa one shot). Again see my logic in the top statement; no other abilities in the game adhere to those rules. None of them. But scatter. Again, its fine to have unique abilities and I want that between characters. I don't even take issue with it functioning the way it does. It shouldn't be insta killing people. I think the majority of people in this game agree with that as well.
The soldier example is also so off base. Like you keep thinking that spam fire is the same as an active shot RNGing to death. I really don't know what else to say but those are entirely different problems. I'm not talking about junkrat or soldier spam (and even if I was, none of those shots one shot you). I'm talking about an ability that based on RNG (and additionally non RNG phsyics) can one shot, on its own, without any other necessary shooting or environmental placements. Youre moving the field goals of my problem to try and create strawmen about this ability, or at least youre not understanding why scatter is unlike every example you keep listing.
moonmoon and thats it
This whole thing is getting to be too much of a giant post back and forth, so I'm just gonna start replying to a few general ideas with a little more succinctness.
First off, full health? You mean this? I've watched the video twice, and I only see the one Junkrat kill here, yet the pop up clearly says he only ate 17% of the Junkrat's health there. And I have to emphasize that the bottom statement of that quote is simply wrong. Scatter can kill you on any part of the map...if it happens to be angled where Hanzo can shoot at you from. For example, there is no amount of ricochet available for Hanzo to kill you in the middle room at the Nepal temple from his spawn, for example. You need to be at an angle he can get to, like any other ability, and you will often find yourself at the wrong place at the wrong time, which is the case for a lot of different attacks.
Second, my argument wasn't that it was impossible for Hanzo to get a kill while not being in line of sight, but what I assumed you meant that you were trying to argue his ability to one shot full health heroes. I totally agree that he can kill some low health stragglers through the random jumping of his arrows. But I don't see random elements killing low health players as a problem.
For someone who is upset at me for disingenuousness, I'm pretty surprised to hear you say this. I never denied that there is an element of randomness to his scatter arrows. It's just that it doesn't do enough damage to matter to me. At best, it's responsible for a couple random kills across the game and I don't consider there to be a strong distinction between what it can do vs several other elements.
Not for me. The problem here is player intent. The Soldier isn't RNG in the same way, but the principal of the argument here is players getting kills by coincidental firing, or atleast estimation firing, like Junkrat spamming his grenades over a wall and you happening to be there. These players aren't aiming at you, they're just spamming and hoping to get lucky. That's the fundamental problem one can have with an RNG mechanic, and for me, as long as it isn't a full health instakill, it's not a problem. And despite what you think you've given me as evidence, I have yet to see a consistent string of 1 hit (full health) kill shots from indirect angles.
This is a more minor point, but what the hell does this even mean? The randomness doesn't come from the engine literally picking a number at random and based that off the direction the scatter arrow goes.
The trajectory of the shards are predetermined. However, players cannot track the trajectory of 6 simultaneous, fast moving shards going in and bouncing around different directions based on the angle and part of the map you hit the arrow with. But if you fire at the same angle without altering your position, then the pattern the shards travel is going to be identical each time. I literally just tested this to make sure, and each time, the scatter moves identically if you don't move from your position. It's effectively random because no one can predict the bounces past the first one, but it's 100% operating based on the game's physics. The randomness factor comes from limitations of human tracking and coordination, not the engine fucking with you.
So maybe you're the one who doesn't know what an RNG component is, because up until now, I thought you were just using it as a rhetorical device.
No, they do not. If you're within 2 meters of their explosion, then you get damaged without them ever touching you. Unless your now counting the explosion as part of the hit, in which case I don't see why you don't count the shards as part of the attack. And, like any attack, they can one shot you if you're on low enough health to be oneshotted by the small explosion, which is the standard you set with the videoes you linked here.
First off, full health? You mean this? I've watched the video twice, and I only see the one Junkrat kill here, yet the pop up clearly says he only ate 17% of the Junkrat's health there. And I have to emphasize that the bottom statement of that quote is simply wrong. Scatter can kill you on any part of the map...if it happens to be angled where Hanzo can shoot at you from. For example, there is no amount of ricochet available for Hanzo to kill you in the middle room at the Nepal temple from his spawn, for example. You need to be at an angle he can get to, like any other ability, and you will often find yourself at the wrong place at the wrong time, which is the case for a lot of different attacks.
Second, my argument wasn't that it was impossible for Hanzo to get a kill while not being in line of sight, but what I assumed you meant that you were trying to argue his ability to one shot full health heroes. I totally agree that he can kill some low health stragglers through the random jumping of his arrows. But I don't see random elements killing low health players as a problem.
For someone who is upset at me for disingenuousness, I'm pretty surprised to hear you say this. I never denied that there is an element of randomness to his scatter arrows. It's just that it doesn't do enough damage to matter to me. At best, it's responsible for a couple random kills across the game and I don't consider there to be a strong distinction between what it can do vs several other elements.
Not for me. The problem here is player intent. The Soldier isn't RNG in the same way, but the principal of the argument here is players getting kills by coincidental firing, or atleast estimation firing, like Junkrat spamming his grenades over a wall and you happening to be there. These players aren't aiming at you, they're just spamming and hoping to get lucky. That's the fundamental problem one can have with an RNG mechanic, and for me, as long as it isn't a full health instakill, it's not a problem. And despite what you think you've given me as evidence, I have yet to see a consistent string of 1 hit (full health) kill shots from indirect angles.
This is a more minor point, but what the hell does this even mean? The randomness doesn't come from the engine literally picking a number at random and based that off the direction the scatter arrow goes.
The trajectory of the shards are predetermined. However, players cannot track the trajectory of 6 simultaneous, fast moving shards going in and bouncing around different directions based on the angle and part of the map you hit the arrow with. But if you fire at the same angle without altering your position, then the pattern the shards travel is going to be identical each time. I literally just tested this to make sure, and each time, the scatter moves identically if you don't move from your position. It's effectively random because no one can predict the bounces past the first one, but it's 100% operating based on the game's physics. The randomness factor comes from limitations of human tracking and coordination, not the engine fucking with you.
So maybe you're the one who doesn't know what an RNG component is, because up until now, I thought you were just using it as a rhetorical device.
icecold1983
Member
diamond isnt even the rank where the community has learned who counters who. it only requires a modicum of intelligence to be diamond level if youve been playing for 3 months
I see a lot of post talking about how scatter arrow is cheap but it takes more skill to hit a scatter arrow then to hi Doomfist one hit rocket punch, or road hogs hook which well use to one shot.
Hanzo needs to keep the scatter arrows to defend against flankers because without it there is a slim chance he wins on a one on one fight with flankers. If it had to change then change the damage to 250-270 so it at least kill all flankers
Hanzo is pretty simple to counter so if a Hanzo is wrecking your team then you need to pick a counter pick plain and simple
Hanzo needs to keep the scatter arrows to defend against flankers because without it there is a slim chance he wins on a one on one fight with flankers. If it had to change then change the damage to 250-270 so it at least kill all flankers
Hanzo is pretty simple to counter so if a Hanzo is wrecking your team then you need to pick a counter pick plain and simple
Carl-Sagan
Member
Patiently refreshing Gaf and /r/Overwatch for leaks of the upcoming event...
People are going to go bananas with the reveal of Mercy's Badminton outfit, I can guarantee that.
Me? I just want to play Competitive Lucio Ball and try out all the ridiculous changes they've implemented in the mode.
Dead Prince
Banned
we're not going to talk about where i just threw my grav when i needed to go under anubis bridge to heal.
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