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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread
- Thread starter AlteredBeast
- Start date
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Invisible_Insane
Member
I don't understand how any of you are becoming teary eyed over what is, in my view, a pretty half-hearted endorsement of marriage equality. This is not an issue on which the states should do as they please.
I missed the states rights dodge when the news broke. :/
I know I am not the only one.
His distinction about the states annoyed me, especially because it's a nuance that no one except gay people and liberals will give a shit about. Low information voters are only going to ever see and care about "Obama backs gay marriage." They're not going to see his little clarification about "It's my own view," and be OK with it when they otherwise wouldn't be.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
I love it. Obama is the adult in the room, once again.
I'd not be surprised if Obama's promotion of LGBT equality accelerated the acceptance of gay marriage. It elevates the salience of the issue. Moreover, black Congressional support for LGBT equality may finally be influencing public support. I remember a working paper presented at the 2011 APSA Conference which indicated black Congresspersons were more likely to support LGBT equality than their constituents. And as they typically emanate from majority-minority or plurality-minority districts, their constituents are primarily black. Further, that suggests the notion that blacks will abandon Obama is baseless. Black congresspersons promote LGBT equality without sanction from their constituencies. There's scant reason to expect a mass defection especially when Obama had already promoted LGBT interests.
Let the people party. The reality of his statement will settle in next week. He personally endorsed gay marriage but as much as admitted he will do nothing to make it a reality. Apparently including campaigning. There was not a single reason he had to wait until after the NC vote to announce this. Would it have made up the 30% margin? Of course not. Would it have added some credibility and courage to his comments? I think so.
It's a good start and hopefully it points to the direction he will go in his second term on the issue.
teruterubozu
Member
It wasn't exactly Gettysburg, but I'll take it.
RoninChaos
Member
Completely agree. The same people who hate the president are the same people preaching about how homosexuality is a sin, sanctity of marriage, the earth being 6000 years old, etc. The two practically go hand in hand. I guess if you believe in an invisible man in the sky that hates gay people, it's not a stretch to believe that you're right about the earth being 6000 years old and any science should be ignored because it isn't in the bible.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
This would be my prediction for Obama vs. Romney in the Fall.
Don't need NC or FL.
I'm not sure about Ohio and Iowa on that map, but he wouldn't need those either on your map so long as he holds Pennsylvania and NV/Colorado.
Invisible_Insane
Member
To any voter with an inclination to choose a candidate based on his same-sex marriage views, the fact that Obama personally endorses same sex marriage is likely disqualifying anyway. What annoys me is that he's trying to leave himself room to walk this back once the charge of federal homosexual fascist tyranny is leveled by claiming that he was merely stating his personal view and the determination of who can marry should be made on a state by state basis. He gets to appear as if he's taking on some very courageous position and it's not really the case at all.
teruterubozu
Member
I agree. He has to follow through on this. A one-and-done "I already addressed this" is going to harm him down the line. The attack ads are going to be immense - he's gotta keep up the front and not slink away.
I don't see how. It gets him positive buzz as the campaign launches in earnest and he appears to makes promises to a constituency that is eager for any political support. This easily gets him through the election. At that point, what can anyone do to him?
What I like most about this is that there is not reasonable way to be against this. How the president is completely rational and to the point. This is how it should have been presented all along.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
A day at a time, guys. Sheesh.
teruterubozu
Member
Because the church-funded attack ads are going to be intense. Yeah everyone's made up their minds on the issue, blah, blah. But Americans are dumb, they watch too much TV.
Wouldn't the attack be worse if he actually moved towards acting on his beliefs? He'll continue framing this as a personal belief and not actually take any proactive positions, at least not until after the election. It's smart but it's also hardly something to get joyfully weepy over. Hopefully that will come early next year.
RoninChaos
Member
Maybe in other parts of the country, but in the bible belt, I think hatred for homosexuality and wanting to follow the bible trumps skin color. For example, Atlanta has the 4th largest black population in the country, but it's also in the middle of the bible belt. I've been to plenty of churches that preach politics and I haven't been to one that was okay with gay marriage. Religion being "against" homosexuality will be a bigger divide on this issue, and I think it will bypass things like color.
The Obama administration extended federal employee benefits to same-sex couples, signed the Matthew Sheppard Act, lifted the ban that prevented people with HIV/AIDS from entering the US, worked with the UN to include "sexual orientation" as part of the definition on human rights, stopped defending DOMA, repealed DADT, announced a HUD rule that prohibited housing descrimination based on sexual orientation, and has come out against same-sex marriage bans such as those in NC. In addition to this, the President himself personally has come out in support of same sex marriage in an election year that's likely to be much closer than last time. Congress can barely pass a budget today, it's not going to tackle legalizing gay marriage anytime soon. This is, for better or worse, going to be a state issue for some time.
To act like this President or this administration isn't doing enough or going above and beyond on these issues in comparison to every President in history is fucking disingenuous.
To act like this President or this administration isn't doing enough or going above and beyond on these issues in comparison to every President in history is fucking disingenuous.
teruterubozu
Member
Granted, it's way too early to tell whether it will do any harm or good. But people get more illogical and emotional when election time comes around and some of the ugliness in the nation gets super-exposed.
I totally agree, I just think it was a weird time to equivocate with a nod to states rights.
Also, did he come out against the NC vote? I wasn't paying particularly close attention to it since it was never really in doubt.
Frank the Great
Banned
if we are still discussing gay marriage as a campaign issue by september/october, then that means the economy is still chugging along and obama's got this in the bag. if the economy slips again between now and the election no one will give a shit about gay marriage.
obama's announcement was only about throwing a bone to a large part of his base and getting big liberal doners to hop on board. the issue itself will probably not effect the november elections in any real way, and if it is even still being discussed by then, as i have said, obama has already won.
obama's announcement was only about throwing a bone to a large part of his base and getting big liberal doners to hop on board. the issue itself will probably not effect the november elections in any real way, and if it is even still being discussed by then, as i have said, obama has already won.
teruterubozu
Member
If we're still discussing this as the main issue by October then it'll be the most uneventful election year ever.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Or it suggests that he knows he has a losing position. Lol
cartoon_soldier
Member
Romney school bullying kids (including one who looked gay)
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.c...nt-details-romneys-prep-school-pranks?ref=fpb
Romney camp is denying anything like that ever occured.
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.c...nt-details-romneys-prep-school-pranks?ref=fpb
Romney camp is denying anything like that ever occured.
I knew it. The deluge of negative ads on Obama haven't even started yet, and he's barely ahead of Romney in a state like Ohio.
RoninChaos
Member
I'm confused as to how poor children are supposed to help themselves.
Fuck that dumb piece of shit. Taking away things from poor kids is obviously in the bible, amirite?
edit - deleted
I think it's going to be close, like it always is. I also think it's pointless to get Rob Portman as he doesn't really bring anything to the table. Might as well pick out a woman and hope she doesn't get Palin'ed.
I think it's going to be close, like it always is. I also think it's pointless to get Rob Portman as he doesn't really bring anything to the table. Might as well pick out a woman and hope she doesn't get Palin'ed.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Cause he was massively ahead of McCain in 2008? Ohio is almost never a sure thing that is why its called a battleground lol
The gender gap is going to kill Romney, you can't win an election with only white men during a presidential
el retorno
Member
He's not going to push for a national vote or try to pick a fight with those states but I don't think he's gonna back down from his statement that they should have that right and it should be policy. I think the states thing is to insulate him from the "war on marriage" charges. I think he and everyone else knows that change is probably gonna come from the court.
And I don't understand how its not courageous, he's said he thinks gays should be able to marry. What else can he do from the presidency? The only think I can see is him saying DOMA should be repealed, which he's already not defending.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Fixed.
This is not unique to being rich or preppie, it is a fact of life. I know an amazing amount of very well-adjusted nice people who happened to be a dicks at one point in their life, myself included. I found a kid i had picked on a few times in elementary school a few years ago and apologized to him. I never did anything physical or crazy, but I did insult him on more than a few occasions, and we all know how deep emotional scars go. I have pretty much told my wife if we ever find out that our kid is bullying someone at school, I get first chance to beat his ass or publicly humiliate him. That'll show 'em!
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
If this is true, this isn't like the dog on the car, Romney should rightfully get some serious shit for this.
Where does it say one of them looked gay?
Eh. It's unfortunate, but I don't think so. I was an asshole in school and I made fun of one kid in particular. I changed a lot since then, and tracked him down and apologized to him. We (well, some of us) aren't the people we were in middle school and high school.
Romney should be criticized for what he's doing right now, his flip flops on it since 94, and how he donated $10,000 toward suppressing gay rights in California in 2008. The last one especially because barely anyone reported on it, and the media still has the fucking balls to call this asshole a moderate.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Wow! This is actually pretty damn funny. Kids in an all-boys school playing pranks?!
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
Who would have guessed that a Republican would be an asshole like that in school.
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/obama-chuckles-at-romneys-claim-of-credit-for
Pretty smooth, especially as he's just treating it like a symptom of the larger Romney.
Pretty smooth, especially as he's just treating it like a symptom of the larger Romney.
Skiptastic
Member
I'm a Methodist and I'm pretty sure "The Lord helps those who help themselves" isn't at the top of our message priorities. That's shit you tell your kids so they don't be lazy asses.
However, being that I don't want religion mixed in with politics, it's just as dumb to say "the Bible says you're supposed to help poor people, taking away government programs is against the Bible" as it is to say "the Bible says gays are bad, so no marriage for gays!" I've always thought the Bible says what you as an individual are supposed to do, not what you're supposed to have the government do for you by proxy.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I would love to see the charts you obviously have showing the correlation between being a republican and bullying. What a stupid comment.
Invisible_Insane
Member
That's the thing: he didn't say it should be policy. He said it's his personal opinion. I said that the states' rights thing is to insulate him from "war on marriage" charges, and I think that's pretty cowardly, even if he is expecting the change to come from the courts--if he thinks people are being denied a civil right, then he shouldn't be deferring to the opinions of various state legislatures.
I don't mean to suggest that he can unilaterally make marriage equality the law of the land. That being said, there are some executive orders (the specific contents escape me) that he has declined to issue despite agitation for such from the gay community. Hillary Clinton's speech a few weeks ago on gay rights as human rights was a much bolder way of going about the issue. I don't think his statement from yesterday goes far enough.
What the fuck are you talking about. Seriously. Some people are assholes in school and then they grow out of it. Please don't lower the conversation to this level; this is impossibly stupid.
technically it is. Marriage licenses ARE issued by the states, after all.
There is no such thing as a federal marriage license AFAIK. It's almost a standard form of contract between two individuals from a a legal perspective, a set of agreements and rights bestowed upon and amongst two persons who have mutually decided to pursue a life union with each other, but even that isn't right, as marriage itself comes with its own rights and privileges classified both under law and private policies, especially those involving health care. Even if you individually write up contracts to bestow upon someone all the rights classified under marriage , if you don't have a marriage license recognized, you can't be classified under marriage policies of various employment benefits....
The ultimate end game of the marriage debate is going to be the federal courts determining whether or not the states violate the 14th amendment by excluding couples that are not heterosexual from marrying.
The Librarian
Banned
It's a slap across the face, yet it isn't. So awesome.
That's the point and the obvious end game. The only reason Obama would hedge with the states right canard (come on, no one in Washington gives a shit about states rights...Holder is probably busting a CA pot shop today) is that he doesn't want to come off as proactive.
True. A while ago I posted an article on gay rights groups agitating for the inclusion of marriage equality in the Democratic platform at the convention despite Obama's objection. I think he was partially motivated to preempt a major dispute erupting in Charlotte. Now that Obama is not opposed, the Party does not have to worry about appearing disunited.
There's little evidence to support the notion that vice presidential nominees bring anything to the table. But there's some evidence a poor choice can reduce support. Portman may not be an exciting nominee. Yet he's experienced on a national stage. And you can be fairly confident he won't commit mistakes like Palin and detract from the campaign.
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