Blergmeister
Member
At least I have more impact at getting the head of the Government fired than the head of JPMorgan Chase.
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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread
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At least I have more impact at getting the head of the Government fired than the head of JPMorgan Chase.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The government has a built in mechanism for accountability. The free market is also accountable in theory, but the ideals of "freek market optimization towards the best service" doesn't always produce results that are socially acceptable. I trust the government more with the stuff that really matters.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Incorrect. He pointed out that the private sector is currently not hiring enough to meet employment demands. Subsidizing the unemployed by either giving them money directly or at the very least put them on the government payroll to do something is better for the economy than giving that same money to the wealthy. At least until the private sector starts to pick up the slack again.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Ladies and Gentleman, The new A27_Starwolf.
I fear corporations whose sole goal is to turn ever increasing profits and answer only to shareholders than I do the government which we the people continuously vote for.
Whatever happened to that kid? All I remember is that he flamed out during that confederate flag debate a couple months ago...and then nothing.
Dr. Pangloss
Member
New socialist commercial going up in Wisconsin. It even has that horrible forward word in it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D4nwXHc2_Rc I wonder what would happen if Obama made up his own numbers on jobs when he did not agree with the BLS?
Edit: I also like how he shifts the dates. I guess you could use the regular year end from January, 2011 to December 2012 to get positive job numbers. But if you change that to include more months it's actually negative.
Edit: I also like how he shifts the dates. I guess you could use the regular year end from January, 2011 to December 2012 to get positive job numbers. But if you change that to include more months it's actually negative.
Kevitivity
Member
<snark> When the free market fails, we get things the the Red Ring of Death. When Government fails we get things like Greece. <snark>
He was permed since he was a Jr. at the time. That's pretty much all there is to that.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Jeez, dude.
Dr. Pangloss
Member
Apples and Oranges. Why is everything compared to Greece? We aren't Greece. Something really big separates us. 1) We control our own money supply. 2) Our GDP is 100 times theirs. 3) The US dollar is one of the safest monetary units in the world.
Actually he was pro South in a Civil War thread. It was actually hilarious watching him bring up heritage and all that.
So I take it in your world no-one's died from companies failing to label that they process the food in the same location as peanuts? Or people haven't been poisoned by drinking contaminated water? That no-one has died from faulty brakes in an automobile? Nor have millions/billions of fish, birds, and other wildlife died from poor decisions made for the 'efficiency' of stock holders? Hmmmmm.
When the market fail we get the great depression and the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire.
Also, without regulation, Microsoft would've probably crushed all their competitors, so good luck voting with your wallet against the red ring of death.
empty vessel
Member
That is correct. I am talking about the government hiring the people who want to work but that the private sector, for whatever reason, does not want to hire. Right now, in particular, there's a bunch of those people. When the economy improves (thanks to the government jobs program that stimulates aggregate demand), the private sector will hire away people from the government. And if it doesn't, that's fine, too.
I stand corrected, then. It was probably hilarious to watch.
So basically you have no argument?? Frankly it's embarrassing for you to even bring up Greece. Our situations could not be more different and I could list a bunch of "socialist" countries doing just fine if you want to play that dumb game. Are you admitting that you have no counter argument then? And government is evil just because you say so!
When the market fails, we get shit like the 2008 financial collapse. And if free marketers had their way then, the auto industry would be gone too, along with the collapse of the modern banking system. The number of jobs lost would be well into the millions. You think 8% UE is bad? It would have easily been double that of free marketers had their way back then.
Greeces problems were at least partly caused by american financial institutions giving out loans that could not be paid back. Though the government was also undertaxing and overspending. It is pretty complicated.
Invisible_Insane
Member
Bad product =! market failure.
empty vessel
Member
The story of Greece has little to nothing to do with government management or mismanagement. Greece is actually a story of exploitation of poorer European countries (called "the periphery") by larger ones (primarily Germany, but also France), although an especially inelegant attempt that is coming back to bite the richer ones in the ass. For that reason, it may be that it can be chalked up to the economic stupidity of European neoliberal elites. In plain English, the design of the Eurozone was fundamentally flawed. It was designed to give Germany a trading advantage, but they didn't understand how that would all be lost once the periphery had to start taking counter-cyclical measures in economic bust times.
RustyNails
Member
<no snark> When free market fails we get BP oil spill/WV Coal Mine disaster, when Government fails we get to vote out the bastards <no snark>
Really dude, stop projecting Government as an evil overlord entity. Government is simply us doing things collectively when doing things individually isn't feasible.
BotoxAgent
Member
lol, so much facepalm
Rocket Scientist
Member
THE MARKET WASN'T FREE ENOUGH, DON'T YOU GUYS SEE?!
-deregulation
-tax cuts for the rich
-fighting two wars (one of which was under false pretenses)
You know. Pretty much the standard Republican platform?
Dominican Power
Member
The only reason why this country isn't ass indignant as it should be is because we're too distracted. We're too fat, lazy, ignorant, and self centered.
I think anybody who can look at the vast spread of business scandals and ethical misdoings of the 2000s up to today and say this is living in another reality. Enron, CEOs taking greed to a whole new level, the stock market collapse and the list goes on and on. And after all this, they still insist that regulation is the problem.
makingmusic476
Member
Why do you hate George Washington?
What's ironic to me is that the guys that hate every facet of government are often insinuating that the people that DO trust the government to some degree are unpatriotic. For other reasons, of course, but the disparity there still exists.
/used to be one of those people
If you keep repeating the talking points loud enough, Americans get distracted easily. What else would explain 2004 or how Romney is seen as viable in this country?
Dominican Power
Member
Why do you hate George Washington?
Who said I did?
reggieandTFE
Member
Well... you definitely are.
While I don't doubt Bush deserves some of the blame, Clinton and the 90s Republican Congress deserve a lot of it for their deregulation.
makingmusic476
Member
Yeah, it was a build-up of issues over a good 20 years there.
All our hard work to prevent another Great Depression went out the window, because people used our relative economic stability under regulations as evidence that we no longer needed regulations.
Bu-but the market is self regulating. Yeah, I don't blame de-regulation as a cause, it still takes affirmative steps by the corporations to "take advantage" of the repeal of regulation. No one was out there forcing banks to convert mortgages into bond packages and securities which they would then re-sell/trade.
I completely agree that Clinton is as responsible for the mess we're in (which I'm pretty sure was the point TA was trying to get at), but let's not ignore that regardless of what letter the president had next to their name, the actual policies enacted were straight up Republican.
You don't have a vote with your dollars. Corporations don't care about you and your protest vote when you don't buy their product. They've got millions of other suckers to rely on. This is the free market illusion you've bought into and, unless you're a millionaire, you're actively voting against your own interests by perpetuating this worldview.
While this might be true, his arguments are bog standard for a lot of conservatives so I think it's fair game to rip them apart for all those who aren't actively posting in this thread but only reading it.
Kevitivity
Member
No, did you not see the <snark> quotes? Why is everyone here so dang literal.
All I'm saying is that I trust the free market just a little bit more that I trust government. Thats all. Nothing more.
It's an interesting thought experiment however. Whats been more harmful to human welfare, Government or the Free Market? Do wars count as government failures?
the housing boom and banking collapse would've happened with or without Bush. the accelerated boom-bust cycle that has defined the American economy over the last 20 years is a systematic failure of our entire government, one that no party is especially apt to correct. just look at JP Morgan. it may not be enough to become a drag on our economy, but the fact that it even happened highlights how regulation even under a purportedly 'regulatory' administration failed.
can't argue about the latter two, though.
you mean completely as a thought experiment, right? because there's never been a 'free market' in the purest sense, and i'm not sure what that would even mean.
makingmusic476
Member
Are you including all forms of government in that statement?
I mean, the American government and its relationship with its people is quite unlike that of, say, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, the PRC, or Monarchies.
It seems absolutely silly. "Our government so far has done fairly well for us, but other governments were way WORSE for their people, so I don't trust government!" Those governments weren't exactly elected for the people, by the people.
Kevitivity
Member
Agreed.
How about you actually answer the questions people brought up? Why do you trust free market more than government? Other than being brainwashed into doing so.
What I find extremely interesting is that it was patriotic to pay for wars after world war 2 but now the people that are war hawks don't want to pay for the wars. You can't be "patriotic" about the defense of our nation without wanting to pay for it yourself. Instead people would rather put the burden on the poor/middle class.
Sounds quite amusing. Link?
makingmusic476
Member
I think the question should be rephrased to "Why do you trust the market more than the U.S. government?" Or "more than a democratically representative form of government?"
There are many types of government, and saying government in general is bad because of the methods of certain governments would be like saying economics in general is bad because extreme capitalism and extreme socialism didn't work so well.
There are many types of government, and saying government in general is bad because of the methods of certain governments would be like saying economics in general is bad because extreme capitalism and extreme socialism didn't work so well.
what i found more interesting about the Bush wars is that he rarely invoked any concept of shared sacrifice that the public needed or should endure. well, perhaps outside of accepting a massive national security apparatus with the ability to sneak into every facet of our lives and holes in our bodies. instead, he told us to go out and shop. literally. go out and buy things so the economy doesn't drag. that will defeat terrorism.
meanwhile he used accounting loopholes for years to keep the true cost of the war off the books. when Obama stopped that trend in his administration, Republicans jumped on him for massively increasing government spending.
Here you go
It was quite amusing. He was one of the regulars in "racism is dead" arguments. Not surprising that he was a confederate flag defender. Hilarious that he we go visit his Grandpa who flew the flag and didn't think there was anything wrong with it.
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