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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread

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AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
It's a bullshit talking point generated by RNC. Rich People = Job Creators is utter nonsense. How many people you know that started business? Most of the ones I know started from scratch. They weren't rich. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs started from a garage. Zuckerberg started from his dorm room. They are the real job creators.

You do realize that these people attended Ivy League colleges and come influenced by and supported by millionaires and billionaires.

The point more succinctly stated is that of Elizabeth Warren, who I am not fond of overall (certainly not to the degree that GAF absolutely loves her), when she said, " There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there — good for you!

But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea — God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.

But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."

No man is an island. Zuckerberg wouldn't have made dollar one without the money from wealthy investors and capitalists.
 
I see it as the last gasp of a failed ideology right before it's inevitable marginalization in an ever progressing society that has no need for backwards ideas.

I don't see this as inevitable as all. Two terms with the GOP in control of DC will likely lead to things that will be impossible to reconstruct without a revolution: privatized social security, privatized Medicare, de-funding of Medicaid, national right to work laws that kill off labor unions and on and on.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
They have TONS of money that they basically have to spend. This is the new normal. Welcome to Citizens United Election cycles.

By 2013, we will already see political ads for the 2016 election cycle. :(

I'm expecting political ads to be perpetual going forward. There will be enough cash flowing to keep ads going from end to end of the cycles; they won't need to concentrate on the election year.

Thank god I don't watch TV; I've seen just a couple political ads in the past several years.
 
You do realize that these people attended Ivy League colleges and come influenced by and supported by millionaires and billionaires.

The point more succinctly stated is that of Elizabeth Warren, who I am not fond of overall (certainly not to the degree that GAF absolutely loves her), when she said, " There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there — good for you!

But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea — God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.

But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."

No man is an island. Zuckerberg wouldn't have made dollar one without the money from wealthy investors and capitalists.
I can certainly understand not liking her as much as the more liberal members of PoliGAF--I'm delighted to have someone who is capable of articulating the case for government interventions in the public sphere--but I can't see why you'd dislike her overall. Do you think banks are sufficiently regulated? Or is this one of those things where your inclination to identify as conservative leads you to assert things that don't really line up with your policy perspective? This strikes me as an instance of the latter.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You do realize that these people attended Ivy League colleges and come influenced by and supported by millionaires and billionaires.

The point more succinctly stated is that of Elizabeth Warren, who I am not fond of overall (certainly not to the degree that GAF absolutely loves her), when she said, " There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there — good for you!

But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea — God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.

But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."

No man is an island. Zuckerberg wouldn't have made dollar one without the money from wealthy investors and capitalists.

And raising the taxes of those wealthy investors and capitalists wouldn't have stopped them from investing into Facebook. Facebook was/is a big deal and the same amount of people would have still be interested in Facebook even if the Captial Gains tax rate was 20%.
 

RDreamer

Member
The irony is that giving money to poor people really does create jobs.

The fact that so many people don't understand this utterly pisses me off beyond belief. Luckily I have a real life example that I can use if my dad or someone ever tries to deny this.

My wife had a job for a while at a grocery store in the part of the city where a lot of people use food stamps. She would tell me about how business would skyrocket on the day that people got those things, too. Without food stamps I very well doubt that grocery store would have been kept afloat. Pick N Save would have closed it down to concentrate on far more profitable stores. That one never did so well, but food stamps kept it going. So, without those poor "lazy" people having their food stamps, then my hard working wife would have been out of a job. All those people would have been out of a job. And that job helped a lot of those people out of needing food stamps.

You give money or benefits like that to the poor and they're going to use it. They have to use it. They're not going to sit around and not eat. That creates jobs for others to serve these things to them. That money doesn't just sit there with them. It does help people pick themselves out of poverty and work.
 

Diablos

Member
Obama can't seem to maintain 50% or higher on Gallup. He gets there, then it plummets. Always.

The new polling showing Romney gaining on Obama is very unsettling... thankfully it's May.
 
I've always wondered why the GOP is against welfare. Food stamps etc go right back to their corporate buddies.

It does. It's because, at bottom, they are not interested in collective welfare, and by that I mean an optimized economy. Their interests lie in relative power and the maintenance thereof, which is why their policies are intended to enhance inequality rather than improve the economy overall, which would require some basic egalitarianism (which is not to say absolute or rigid equality).

Ultimately, policies like the food stamp program improve the bargaining power of employees. If people cannot even get access to food except by applying to an employer to work, then this state creates many more job applicants and puts downward pressure on wages. The dirty secret of, e.g., Republicans (and to some extent Democrats as well) is that they view unemployment as a positive, because it means a greater share of wealth going to managers and investors and less to workers (the vast majority). This is notwithstanding the fact that society as a whole would be much better off (and produce much more absolute wealth) if it had full employment. Of course, because the overwhelming majority of voters do not see it the same way, political posturing is required to pretend otherwise.
 
I don't see this as inevitable as all. Two terms with the GOP in control of DC will likely lead to things that will be impossible to reconstruct without a revolution: privatized social security, privatized Medicare, de-funding of Medicaid, national right to work laws that kill off labor unions and on and on.

As we get close to their ideas being enacted, most will be rejected. Near term it might not look so good, but eventually the need for reason and progress will take hold. They will fight it to the bitter end but they will lose. It may take 10, 20 years of back and forth and cleaning up their messes, but it's inevitable.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
And raising the taxes of those wealthy investors and capitalists wouldn't have stopped them from investing into Facebook. Facebook was/is a big deal and the same amount of people would have still be interested in Facebook even if the Captial Gains tax rate was 20%.

I am not arguing in favor of non-taxation, in fact, I have always been against the low rates currently held by nearly everyone.

Capital gains should be taxed like regular income. The same people who invest will still invest because it will still make them more money than putting money into a bank or bonds.

I am just saying, it is disingenuous to say, "Rich people are not job creators, look at Mark Zuckerberg, after all. He made Facebook on pure blood, sweat, and tears." If it weren't for investors and wealthy people willing to see his vision for what it was, there would be no Facebook.

I am not saying rich people by their nature are job creators, but I am saying that wealthy people create more jobs than poor people, especially in the service and consumption society that we live in.

RE: Invisible Insane - I just don't like her. It is nothing against her policies. I don't like most politicians, or other people that are driven by a wave of elation. Possibly the contrarian in me, but I just don't like a lot of people that others die for.
 

Snake

Member
Setting aside domestic policies for a moment, I don't see how Romney would be a major player in intentional politics or what he would even be doing. With Obama you had a charismatic, intelligent guy who cared about America's image and had respect for it's responsibilities abroad. What do you have with a president Romney....?

Foreign policy has always been Romney's biggest weakpoint. And since it's the biggest part of the job he's seeking I can't help but laugh
or cry
since no one will call him out on it.

He brings nothing to the table except for bringing back the Bush FP team. Right now the media narrative is that Romney's FP team is divided. But come November 7, if Romney comes out on top I can guarantee you that they'll get plenty united around some neocon concept that gets them nice and hard. These folks will hurt our standing in the world, not to mention hurt the world itself. If you loved the war in Iraq, you're going to love the sequel. Think Romney is at heart a sensible moderate who probably won't do much differently than Obama? Well I can guarantee you that there are few political pressures more intense than the push against Iran (from both Republican and Democratic lobbies and constituencies). And Romney does not have the spine to defend against that. No one can suggest he does. For all the negatives you can say about Barack Obama, he has still clearly attempted to preclude war with Iran through sanctions, negotiations, and covert action.

I will keep banging this drum 'til November. You think Americans are tired of war? Sounds right, until you press their opinions a bit and ask "Would you be alright with a brief surgical strike against the Iranian nuclear sites or the regime?" At which point those "isolationists" don't care so much. And if it were to escalate into a "limited engagement," well it's not like we have an actual antiwar movement in this country to push back against it.
 

eznark

Banned
Latest MU Law poll is great for Walker. Six point lead (up from 3) and a 50% approval rating.

GOP also has a 9 point edge in enthusiasm.
 

eznark

Banned
Dat out of state monies!

Recalling a governor with a 50% approval rating...lol. With these new jobs numbers he made up (hint, all jobs numbers are made up) I'm guessing he will get another couple point bounce. If polls show Walker up by 7-9 by the end of the month this is going to be a double digit blow out.

Dems last hope is the John Doe investigation.
 
Recalling a governor with a 50% approval rating...lol. With these new jobs numbers he made up (hint, all jobs numbers are made up) I'm guessing he will get another couple point bounce. If polls show Walker up by 7-9 by the end of the month this is going to be a double digit blow out.

Dems last hope is the John Doe investigation.

To be honest, Walker was flirting with below 40% approval rating when the whole recall effort started. I'm not surprised the barrage of ads/Rove money flooded the scene and made the election about Barrett, not Walker.
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Recalling a governor with a 50% approval rating...lol. With these new jobs numbers he made up (hint, all jobs numbers are made up) I'm guessing he will get another couple point bounce. If polls show Walker up by 7-9 by the end of the month this is going to be a double digit blow out.

Dems last hope is the John Doe investigation.

@ the bolded..

Really now?
 

Kevitivity

Member
The irony is that giving money to poor people really does create jobs.

Not necessarily. Simply giving money away can also simply create slaves to the state (I would argue that this is what usually happens). Take a look at the welfare reform Clinton passed in the 90s. Once welfare was cut, did thousands starve in the streets? No, they got jobs.

Simply giving away money is a great way to buy votes, however, which is the real reason many cynical politicians push these 'programs'.

Even FDR himself knew how dangerous welfare programs can be to an economy...

"A large proportion of these unemployed and their dependents have been forced on the relief rolls. The burden on the Federal Government has grown with great rapidity. We have here a human as well as an economic problem. When humane considerations are concerned, Americans give them precedence. The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound policy. It is in violation of the traditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers."
Franklin D. Roosevelt in his 1935 SOTU
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I see it as the last gasp of a failed ideology right before it's inevitable marginalization in an ever progressing society that has no need for backwards ideas.

Yeah, with the policies Bush enacted that pretty much destroyed our economy, it's pretty clear that the Republicans won't be able to take control of congress for the next 100 years!
 
Not necessarily. Simply giving money away can also simply create slaves to the state (I would argue that this is what usually happens). Take a look at the welfare reform Clinton passed in the 90s. Once welfare was cut, did thousands starve in the streets? No, they got jobs.

So giving somebody money is slavery? Even though they don't have to do anything for it? The mortgage interest deduction, then, has made a lot of slaves. As has the child tax credit. The very evident reality is that giving people money--which the government routinely does--from the poorest of the poor to the richest of the rich--does not enslave them. Nor does it make them not work. You'll have to look elsewhere for the reasons people do not work.

But of course this misses the point, which was not a moral one but an economic one. It doesn't matter if the poor people to whom you give money work. The economy will be improved regardless of whether they are working. You might care about stigmatizing the lazy more than creating and distributing wealth and raising living standards, but I can't say that I do. The joy of finger-pointing wears thin after a while.

It also misses the point because my point was purely economic not prescriptive. You can give poor people money with no strings attached. Or you can also put money in poor people's hands by offering them a government job. Presumably, you would have no objections to the latter approach? I phrased my assertion the way I did because the discussion was about "giving" rich people money, a la a tax break (which, make no mistake, is giving them money without strings attached just as much as "welfare.") So, as between giving rich people money and giving poor people, the latter is far and away better for the economy.

Finally, you must have misspoken when you started off your post by saying "not necessarily." Because, economically, it's irrefutable that the best way to increase aggregate demand is to get money in the hands of people who make so little that they will spend--not save--the money they receive (whether or not they worked for it, but there is certainly no reason not to offer them a job). What you meant to say was that, while true, you have other objections. But those objections are misplaced, because giving people money without strings attached is not the only way to put money in people's hands.

Simply giving away money is a great way to buy votes, however, which is the real reason many cynical politicians push these 'programs'.

It's also a great way to increase aggregate demand, encourage investment, and create jobs. So any votes it "buys" are fully warranted.

Even FDR himself knew how dangerous welfare programs can be to an economy...

"A large proportion of these unemployed and their dependents have been forced on the relief rolls. The burden on the Federal Government has grown with great rapidity. We have here a human as well as an economic problem. When humane considerations are concerned, Americans give them precedence. The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound policy. It is in violation of the traditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers."
Franklin D. Roosevelt in his 1935 SOTU

While FDR and I wouldn't exactly be on the same page (he did save capitalism after all), I have no objection to this at all. In fact, what he was saying was that it was our duty to offer jobs to people who want to work but could not find a job. You know that 8.1% unemployment rate. That is all the people who want to find work but are unable to do so, because there simply are not enough being offered by the private sector. The private sector is choosing, for market reasons, not to hire all the people who want to work. So I propose, like FDR did, that work "must be found" for the unemployed. And that is accomplished by the federal government offering every person who wants one a job.

But I suspect you oppose this, even though you just provided the rationale for it.
 
Not necessarily. Simply giving money away can also simply create slaves to the state (I would argue that this is what usually happens). Take a look at the welfare reform Clinton passed in the 90s. Once welfare was cut, did thousands starve in the streets? No, they got jobs.

things don't happen in a bubble . . . i'm sure if the economy were booming and the government wanted to make responsible cuts to balance the budget, there would be less complaints (of course EV would still complain but most wouldn't.)

the problem is cutting programs when there is a huge unemployment number . . . there simply are no jobs, and cutting assistance to people is cruel and unjustifiable in this economic climate. or are you suggesting that the reason unemployment is high is that people would rather not work?

it is also economically idiotic, but i won't go into that.
 

Kevitivity

Member
While FDR and I wouldn't exactly be on the same page (he did save capitalism after all), I have no objection to this at all. In fact, what he was saying was that it was our duty to offer jobs to people who want to work but could not find a job. You know that 8.1% unemployment rate. That is all the people who want to find work but are unable to do so, because there simply are not enough being offered by the private sector. The private sector is choosing, for market reasons, not to hire all the people who want to work. So I propose, like FDR did, that work "must be found" for the unemployed. And that is accomplished by the federal government offering every person who wants one a job.

But I suspect you oppose this, even though you just provided the rationale for it.

Here's where I think we differ, please correct me if I'm wrong. You seem to want the government to be in the forefront with regards to creating jobs (Is that correct?), where I would much rather see the government step back and allow the free market do it's work, via corporate tax cuts, less regulation, etc.

With regards to economic theory, how would you describe your views? I'm just curious. You seem to be a little left of mainstream Dems.
 

Chichikov

Member
The dirty secret of, e.g., Republicans (and to some extent Democrats as well) is that they view unemployment as a positive, because it means a greater share of wealth going to managers and investors and less to workers (the vast majority). This is notwithstanding the fact that society as a whole would be much better off (and produce much more absolute wealth) if it had full employment. Of course, because the overwhelming majority of voters do not see it the same way, political posturing is required to pretend otherwise.
This is hardly a secret.
It's pretty much the prevailing opinion of economists.
Now personally, I don't put much stock in economists or their opinions, but that's a different discussion.
 

Chumly

Member
Didn't you hear? Bush destroyed the GLOBAL economy!

Honestly, Obama will fail miserably if he tries to put our current economic situation on Bush. Americans are not hat stupid.
Americans would be stupid to NOT believe that our current economic woes are the cause of bush and the current republicans
 

Kevitivity

Member
the problem is cutting programs when there is a huge unemployment number . . . there simply are no jobs, and cutting assistance to people is cruel and unjustifiable in this economic climate. or are you suggesting that the reason unemployment is high is that people would rather not work?

Yes, I'm not advocating ending welfare. I'm merely pointing out that it's an economic band-aid, not a sustainable long term fix.
 

KtSlime

Member
Here's where I think we differ, please correct me if I'm wrong. You seem to want the government to be in the forefront with regards to creating jobs (Is that correct?), where I would much rather see the government step back and allow the free market do it's work, via corporate tax cuts, less regulation, etc.

With regards to economic theory, how would you describe your views? I'm just curious. You seem to be a little left of mainstream Dems.

The free market doesn't work the way you think it does. The invisible hand's actions do not coincide with what is beneficial to you and me - that's why we have regulations.
 

Kevitivity

Member
The free market doesn't work the way you think it does. The invisible hand's actions do not coincide with what is beneficial to you and me - that's why we have regulations.

Some regulation is necessary, I agree. But I still prefer the free market, where I can vote with my dollars, to a government run economy.
 

Chumly

Member
Here's where I think we differ, please correct me if I'm wrong. You seem to want the government to be in the forefront with regards to creating jobs (Is that correct?), where I would much rather see the government step back and allow the free market do it's work, via corporate tax cuts, less regulation, etc.

With regards to economic theory, how would you describe your views? I'm just curious. You seem to be a little left of mainstream Dems.
The free market has failed us time and time again which is why we tax and regulate it. What is wrong with government jobs? They are one of the biggest providers of middle class jobs, teachers, firefighters, policeman etc etc. infrastructure spending is also extremely beneficial to everyone along with providing jobs. The free market creates economIc inequality while the government provides much needed middle class jobs to boost the economy
 

fallagin

Member
Here's where I think we differ, please correct me if I'm wrong. You seem to want the government to be in the forefront with regards to creating jobs (Is that correct?), where I would much rather see the government step back and allow the free market do it's work, via corporate tax cuts, less regulation, etc.

With regards to economic theory, how would you describe your views? I'm just curious. You seem to be a little left of mainstream Dems.

I just don't believe that the free market can be completely trusted. This whole economic downfall is due to the relaxing of restrictions on banks. There needs to be more and more effective regulations that keep the financial sector from running our country into the ground.

Even if we didn't bail out the banks the executives would have made out like bandits. Letting them fail would only hurt everyone else in the country. We need more strict regulations.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Some regulation is necessary, I agree. But I still prefer the free market, where I can vote with my dollars, to a government run economy.

Tell me, how far does your dollar go when it comes to choosing a communications provider?
 

KtSlime

Member
Its either the government that we elect or well be run by multinational corporations who only want a profit.

If we are still allowed to vote, I vote for the system where I can vote as an equal, rather than vote using dollars, where I will likely never be equal to Koch, Glaxosmithkline, Haliburton, (non-biological peoples) etc. I could work for a million life times and would still be less equal.
 
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