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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread

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eznark

Banned
^ When the Progressive chip technology is mandated, insurance companies won't have to guess anymore.

And I will buy an 84 Buick

Well obviously once driver's ed is part of an integrated private sector system of licensing, registration, and insurance, companies will have incentive to ensure that people conducts themselves on the road with only the best of driving practices.

At least the private highway patrol won't get a pension
 
Insurance companies won't have to guess at any one individual driver who buys a policy, but they will have to guess at the other drivers who are not a part of any insurance scheme AND NOW lack a license.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Do some states require driver's ed as a condition of a license? PA doesn't. You just get an insurance discount.

In any event, the market will provide. No need for licensing and bureaucracy. If people think 6 year olds or blind people are dangerous drivers, they will simply avoid them on the roads.
 
roads, DMVs, teachers, etc. etc. everyone always mentions these. why do people always ignore the government functions that really matter?

with no government, who is going to:

-inspect your food so that you know it is safe?
I DONT NEED NO BIG STINKIN GUBMINT TELLIN ME WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT EAT

Heck no! All I's need is some o that Texas grit and my manly bald-eagle-wrapped-in-flag sense I got which tells me whether the meat in front of me was cooked above 160F or not!
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
roads, DMVs, teachers, etc. etc. everyone always mentions these. why do people always ignore the other government functions that really matter?

with no government, who is going to:

"We don't need the government inspecting our food and products, because the free market will correct the issue. Suppliers will develop a reputation for poor products and will go out of business"

That is literally an argument I have heard before. Concept for concept.
 

eznark

Banned
I DONT NEED NO BIG STINKIN GUBMINT TELLIN ME WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT EAT

Heck no! All I's need is some o that Texas grit and my manly bald-eagle-wrapped-in-flag sense I got which tells me whether the meat in front of me was cooked above 160F or not!

Wuss. steak tartare!
 

Kosmo

Banned
I DONT NEED NO BIG STINKIN GUBMINT TELLIN ME WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT EAT

Heck no! All I's need is some o that Texas grit and my manly bald-eagle-wrapped-in-flag sense I got which tells me whether the meat in front of me was cooked above 160F or not!

As long as my sodas are not over 16 ounces.

"We don't need the government inspecting our food and products, because the free market will correct the issue. Suppliers will develop a reputation for poor products and will go out of business"

Why did people stop eating at Jack in the Box when they had an e.Coli issue?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I think WI is seriously in play regardless of if Walker is seriously going to be a running mate because of this whole debacle. It's another classic example of Democrats shooting themselves in the foot and helping the GOP candidate become even more popular.

Wisconsin is not in play. Obama is ahead over 10 points in the state, and the electorate that voted to let Walker finish his term support Obama by a similar margin.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/06/what_it_all_means_initial_thoughts.php?ref=fpblg
 
I DONT NEED NO BIG STINKIN GUBMINT TELLIN ME WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT EAT

Heck no! All I's need is some o that Texas grit and my manly bald-eagle-wrapped-in-flag sense I got which tells me whether the meat in front of me was cooked above 160F or not!
The fuck are you doing ordering meat to 160F? 140, tops.

ez: I salute you.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
The difference is that my posts have contained substance. Yours haven't. You refuse to explain any of the reasons for your prescriptions beyond vague references to "crises," "economic realities," and "revenue streams." I have explained why there aren't any. You have earned those responses. And your behavior now only confirms that you have no arguments to articulate about why you think American workers should experience a decline in their standard of living in the richest country in the world.

More word salad. No substance. More parroted catchphrases.

I think that if you think discussion about how the world SHOULD work is off the table, then you misunderstand at its most fundamental level what politics is.


I believe the government should own/control the oil industry, but I'm not going to sit here and opine about it because I know that's not feasible in this current paradigm we exist in.

So, YOU can have the fantasy discussions or use it as a fallback when reality makes you uncomfortable, but I won't do it.
 
Defined benefit plans must obey certain accounting and actuarial rules, to ensure they'll have enough assets to pay out what they owe. Generally, a company will figure out what they'll owe in future for a given period's work, and add that amount (discounted to current money) to their pension fund. The way to get around that is to increase the discount rate, which means riskier investing, which is usually something pension funds can't get away with. But what if there were a type of investment that had great returns but, everyone promised, almost no risk?

And so they all piled their assets into mortgage-backed securities...

I'm guessing that was rhetorical, but thought this was worth mentioning anyway.

I agree that there is a problem with mismanagement and underfunding of defined benefit pension funds. But that is an administration problem. It doesn't say anything about the appropriateness of the benefits themselves.

Kosmo said:
What country has ever operated under your beliefs and "printed" their way to fiscal health?

All of them, except the Eurozone. Every dollar the government spends is "printed" (created) at the time of spending. Every unit of currency that every government spends (except Eurozone countries) is "printed" (created) at the instant of spending. A dollar is just a unit of accounting, not an actual "thing" in the world (although it can be represented physically, as by paper currency, checks, and pixels on computer screens). The question is not whether the government ought to "print" (create) money--all of them do, every time they spend--it is how much money it should be spending at any given time.
 
Wisconsin is not in play. Obama is ahead over 10 points in the state, and the electorate that voted to let Walker finish his term support Obama by a similar margin.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/06/what_it_all_means_initial_thoughts.php?ref=fpblg
There are too many voters who disagree with recalls on principle. That's the main reason recalling Walker failed.

I think Wisconsin is trending more conservative, but there won't be a full shift in time for Obama to lose. I guess it's similar to Pennsylvania in that respect.
 
The recall failure boils down to a few things, none of which deal with Obama

1. Many people generally don't support the idea of recalls
2. Many of Walker's proposals weren't given time to sink in/impact the state
3. Students were gone for the summer
4. Wisconsin democrats and unions are stupid

#4 is basically a product of the first three points. They knew all that shit for months yet still went through with a recall that wasted money and lost them valuable support. Let Walker make his bed, and then decide in 2014 what to do: if the state is healthy, he stays, if the state is foundering, he goes. And for god sakes, find a better candidate.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
More word salad. No substance. More parroted catchphrases.

You are being petty and childish. EV has written at length the basis for his views, and is asking you to do the same. You are replying with spitballs.
There are too many voters who disagree with recalls on principle. That's the main reason this failed.

I agree. I think there are a fair number of people who do not like Walker, but also think he deserves to finish his term because he was voted in. They don't wan to be caught in a perpetual recall cycle.
 

Kosmo

Banned
I agree that there is a problem with mismanagement and underfunding of defined benefit pension funds. But that is an administration problem. It doesn't say anything about the appropriateness of the benefits themselves.

So would you agree to a more proper setup where all unions (especially public sector, if they continue to exist) should be mandated to manage their own pension funds?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Why did people stop eating at Jack in the Box when they had an e.Coli issue?

What happens if everyone in an industry decides that the threshold of safety and health at which they maximize profitability is below the threshold we deem socially acceptable? If the bar at which providing a better product hits diminishing returns isn't high enough?
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Wisconsin is not in play. Obama is ahead over 10 points in the state, and the electorate that voted to let Walker finish his term support Obama by a similar margin.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/06/what_it_all_means_initial_thoughts.php?ref=fpblg


Yeah, seeing those numbers really put me a bit at ease. I was a bit worried, but if people fanatical about Walker are still overwhelmingly supporting Obama over Romney, I don't see how Romney could flip that state.
 

eznark

Banned
Yeah, seeing those numbers really put me a bit at ease. I was a bit worried, but if people fanatical about Walker are still overwhelmingly supporting Obama over Romney, I don't see how Romney could flip that state.

Not that I want to make you uneasy, but those same exit polls had the election as a dead heat.
 
Not that I want to make you uneasy, but those same exit polls had the election as a dead heat.

But it's also worth noting that the Marquette Law School poll got the recall right, and also has Obama up big
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs.../06/05/gJQA0y3MHV_blog.html?wprss=rss_the-fix

Which has created quite an interesting dynamic. This is the same poll that caused liberals to freak out and attempt to discredit it with cooked internals. Of course now that the poll was proven right, they're citing it in positive terms while republicans dismiss it.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
So would you agree to a more proper setup where all unions (especially public sector, if they continue to exist) should be mandated to manage their own pension funds?

'twas a time when they did manage their own funds, then the Kosmos of the era decided they shouldn't. Haven't you heard of Taft-Hartley?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Non sequitur much?

That's the core argument I usually see in this situation actually: do away with regulation because the government isn't any good at it (or anything), not because regulation is an inherently bad thing. The sentiment is always that regulation is bad, but the reason given is "the government is incompetent"
 
They would then be defined-contribution plans, and no longer pension funds.

I don't believe the argument is about what kind of retirement plans employers (private or public) should have for their employees, I believe it is whether they should follow through on it. Odious Debt.
 

eznark

Banned
But it's also worth noting that the Marquette Law School poll got the recall right, and also has Obama up big
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs.../06/05/gJQA0y3MHV_blog.html?wprss=rss_the-fix

Which has created quite an interesting dynamic. This is the same poll that caused liberals to freak out and attempt to discredit it with cooked internals. Of course now that the poll was proven right, they're citing it in positive terms while republicans dismiss it.

Hey! I pointed that out earlier.

MU Law is definitely one to watch going forward.
 
I think I should develop a meme with the Odious Debt tagline somewhere in it. Even I can appreciate Kosmo when he comes up with terms like that. Something like: public employees provide nothing to society; they are an odious debt. Anyway back to work.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
So would you agree to a more proper setup where all unions (especially public sector, if they continue to exist) should be mandated to manage their own pension funds?

That is exactly how it used to be until conservatives and big businesses successfully lobbied for and Congress passed the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947, in response to the labor strikes that occured in the year following the end of WW2. Even overrode a veto attempt by President Truman if I recall my history correctly.

IIRC it's also how most of Canada's retirement pensions both public and private work. The funds are pooled together through taxes and micromanaged by both unions and individual provinces, with some small regulations on maintaining a minimum standard so that everything doesn't get wiped out due to risky investments that fail. It works very well in practice as I recall: there tends to be a multiplier effect within industries that are beneficial to society at large, and a stable social security-ish safety net for all others.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, Canadians)
 

Jackson50

Member
casey might get another landslide victory too
He should win comfortably. He seems moderately popular. Moreover, the Republicans nominated a weak candidate which conveys their perception that Casey is secure.
Non sequitur much?
I concur with him. Private food safety contractors have a sterling record. And we should probably abolish the public health agencies which resolved the outbreak. They don't produce a profit.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Unions in Wisconsin were willing to accept wage and benefit cuts but Walker refused.

THIS.

They accepted the wage and benefit cuts to fix the budget.

Walker said "Wait, to REALLY fix the budget, we need to get rid of this non-budgetary thing: Collective Bargaining!"

It had nothing to do with balancing the budget.
 

eznark

Banned
THIS.

They accepted the wage and benefit cuts to fix the budget.

Walker said "Wait, to REALLY fix the budget, we need to get rid of this non-budgetary thing: Collective Bargaining!"

It had nothing to do with balancing the budget.

And the people of Wisconsin rewarded him for his bravery and backbone with an even larger margin of victory in the recall.
 

eznark

Banned
Did they ask about opinions on unions in the exit polling? I'm actually kind of curious if people even voted based on that.

1. The exit polls were garbage.

2. People were like 51/49 in favor of unions

3. People were like 58% in favor of Walker's fixes

Those are off the top of my head from hearing them last night. And again, the exists were so far off as to be meaningless.
 
However the chips fall in Wisconsin, I think it'd be good for Obama to treat it as a toss-up anyway.

This election showed that even with higher turnout, a Republican can still win by a convincing margin (even if the circumstances are a bit different), and a strong Obama campaign in WI would also give a boost to Tammy Baldwin's chances at holding the Senate seat, which would go a long way to keeping the Senate.

eznark said:
Those are off the top of my head from hearing them last night. And again, the exists were so far off as to be meaningless.
The exit polls in 2010 showed Feingold v. Johnson to be a tie also. They're junk.

Given how close the polling average in this race was to the actual result, I think I'll be more inclined to believe them in the future. Not that big upsets can't happen (Harry Reid was down 3 in the polls, won by 6), but lesson learned.
 
As if on cue:

Why We Can’t Afford a Bus-Ride
June 6, 2012
By J.D. Alt

Today I cut out of the Wall Street Journal an article and photo that, in combination, illustrate the absurd plight we have placed ourselves in as a society by insisting that we are too poor to create the things we really need. The article is about the Pittsburgh metro area and how it is drastically reducing its public transit routes (as well as increasing fares) in order to cope with a $64 million deficit in its operating funds. The accompanying photo was of a young, bright-looking mother of two day-care aged children (the article explained) sitting at a bus stop that will soon be removed, waiting not for a ride to her job, but for a ride to a job placement agency where she spends four hours a day looking for work. When her bus route is eliminated, she won’t even be able to get to the placement agency. And this is America, the great achievement of modern civilization. I hang my head in shame.

The word “deficit,” of course, explains it all. The article tells a familiar story: The public sector has mismanaged its finances. The union wages the metro area is required to pay its bus drivers are excessively generous. (Ralph Cramden, apparently, now lives in a mansion and drives a Mercedes). Bus driver health care costs are unsustainable, and their retirement benefits are a shameless demand on the “backs of the tax-payers.” There’s no way people are going to pay more taxes to build new transit lines, or buy modern buses and light rail cars. The governor of Pennsylvania refuses any help whatsoever until the metro area gets its fiscal house in order (presumably, by cutting transit routes even further or, perhaps, busting the union and reneging on retirement and health benefits.) But then, what could the governor do anyway? He can’t spend what he doesn’t have, and states are still struggling, partly due to the fact that people are finding it harder and harder to get to work in the morning (if they have a job) and so are paying the state fewer and fewer taxes. The jobless young mother in the photo presumably pays no state income tax.

There is mention, of course, of a possible federal role in this situation. There is something called a “Transportation Bill” that is currently stuck in Congress. But even if it gets unstuck, it seems it won’t make any difference, because the bill is actually proposing to reduce the federal funds targeting public transportation. This is necessary, we’re told, because the federal government is the most broke of all. Its deficit is around a trillion dollars, and Congress can’t even think about anything except how to get out of the big financial hole it believes it’s in.

What is so shameful about all of this is that the solution is both simple and painless: All that’s required is that we remove the Neanderthal glasses we’re collectively wearing so that we can begin to see and understand that the U.S. dollar is no longer convertible to gold. It has become a modern fiat currency, which can be created and tallied like points on an electronic scoreboard. What looks like a “deficit” through our Neanderthal glasses is really just a spreadsheet entry that shows how many “points” our currency-issuing government has added to the scoreboard by purchasing goods and services from (mostly) American workers and businesses. To even call it a “deficit” is to misunderstand the fundamental dynamic of modern fiat monetary systems.

How would this revelation affect the Pittsburgh metro area? For starters it means the federal government could (without any fear of going broke) immediately declare that it stands ready to pay for the modernization of the public transit systems not just in Pittsburgh, but in every city in the country, including the overhaul and refinancing of union pension and health care programs. It can do this very simply because it is the sovereign currency-issuing entity in our society. It can use the power of the purse to pay for the goods and services that its citizens are willing and able to provide in exchange for the currency.

It’s as simple as that. And if we could stop thinking like Neanderthals when it comes to how our currency-issuing government really works, the young mother in the photo would not only get to keep her bus-route, but the next time she goes to the job placement center, she might actually find employment.​

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/06/why-we-cant-afford-a-bus-ride.html

Voila.
 

eznark

Banned
Your such a poor substitute for Manos, I mean fuck.

Here's a hint NOBODY GIVES A CRAP ABOUT GARY JOHNSON BESIDES GABORN.

Get more creative. Go find some dirt on Barrett or Obama if you want a response.

You're. And huh?

Also, I give a fuck about Gary Johnson. Even volunteering for him!
 

Jackson50

Member
Your such a poor substitute for Manos, I mean fuck.

Here's a hint NOBODY GIVES A CRAP ABOUT GARY JOHNSON BESIDES GABORN.

Get more creative. Go find some dirt on Barrett or Obama if you want a response.
Your hostility towards The Right Honorable eznark is puzzling.
He just won my vote.
 
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