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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Similarly, I don't think government debt is bad, in fact I'd say it's essential to a lot of our economy. It's a matter of how much.

I don't know if it's essential. I agree that some debt might be good as a service: specifically, the government's debt provides a risk-free financial asset to the private sector. But it's important to understand, in my opinion, that all debt issuance of a monetarily sovereign government is voluntary. The amount it issues can always be chosen without regard to its spending decisions. In other words, debt does not have to equal the amount of money the government spends in excess of tax receipts.

Lastly, whether on a fiat system or not, the money supply is controlled. I don't think abandoning or extremely loosening that control is a good idea.

The money supply--by which I include the money that banks temporarily create and not just the government's base money--is not controllable at all under current structures. It is demand determined. The Federal Reserve gave up on trying to control the money supply a long time ago, because it cannot control both the money supply and the short term interest rate. It controls the latter.

And no, I don't know what the right levels for these controls should be. My initial post was simply to the comment that "debts aren't a problem" which I think is overly simplistic.

It certainly can be over-simplistic, in the sense that debt is just another component of spending and spending cannot exceed the productive capacity of the economy without devaluing money. But it's far more accurate to say that than to simply say that debt is a problem (which I know you are not saying).

I think the important insight that MMT brings to this issue is not that debt never matters but that it is unnecessary to finance spending. That it is unnecessary to finance spending means that the amount of debt a government issues can be disconnected from its spending decisions. Both questions--how much money should the government spend this year and how much debt should the government issue this year--can be decided independently. That is a hugely important insight, because right now our laws arbitrarily and needlessly tie them together.
 
I don't know why you'd want to avoid MMT references since that appears to be what you intend to argue.

http://hir.harvard.edu/debt-deficits-and-modern-monetary-theory

I am going to getting into MMT but I still think of it has a more fringe theory. I ment it more so as in MMT exclusive authors. Krugman argues very MMTish things but he's still a "mainstream" economist. I'd like to keep my sources as "known" as possible though I am going to bring up some of the new theories that seem to be emerging and gaining supporters like MMT

Whats that blog you always post, new economic perspectives?

I'm really looking at the best ways to present the argument in a clear way.

One of the things I'm most looking for is historical examples that the deficit hawks look to (like greece) and point out the US isn't in the same position (in the greek example they print their own currency). Are there any Historical cases where a country has had "too much debt" and that directly has caused economic ruin?
 
I follow.

And when I say it's essential to our economy, I mean precisely as a service. Giant Pool of Money, as Planet Money put it, and what to do with it.

Chich: I do view it as a technical question. I'm about as little of an idealogue as you can imagine. The documentary Fog of War scared me a bit in how much I identified with Robert S. McNamara. Therein lies the danger of the engineer POV.
 
We also spend way too much on defense (but I agree with the general crux of your argument).

I agree we spend too much on defense in a societal view, but not in an economic view. We aren't spending so much as a percentage of GDP (especially going forward) that it's bad but I would much prefer to shift resources away from the MIC to something that promotes less income inequality.

The money supply--by which I include the money that banks temporarily create and not just the government's base money--is not controllable at all under current structures. It is demand determined. The Federal Reserve gave up on trying to control the money supply a long time ago, because it cannot control both the money supply and the short term interest rate. It controls the latter.

This is true but the Fed can cap it so that it doesn't go past a certain point.


It should be noted that MMT and New Keynesians argue for the same fiscal policy during recessions. The differences mostly come other things (like risk in financial markets, quantitative easing).

I am going to getting into MMT but I still think of it has a more fringe theory. I ment it more so as in MMT exclusive authors. Krugman argues very MMTish things but he's still a "mainstream" economist. I'd like to keep my sources as "known" as possible though I am going to bring up some of the new theories that seem to be emerging and gaining supporters like MMT

Whats that blog you always post, new economic perspectives?

I'm really looking at the best ways to present the argument in a clear way.

One of the things I'm most looking for is historical examples that the deficit hawks look to (like greece) and point out the US isn't in the same position (in the greek example they print their own currency). Are there any Historical cases where a country has had "too much debt" and that directly has caused economic ruin?

I gave you a couple links above

two more with greece: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs...he-united-states-could-not-end-up-like-greece
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/greece-vs-zimbabwe-more-on-krugman-and-deficits
 
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One of my exceedingly rare (like ~1 per year) contributions to the twittersphereaverse.
mccainmaterial.gif
 

RDreamer

Member
I put up a new post over at DHP.

It's basically a gathering of a lot of resources talking about how bad the shrinkage in government and government employment is, and what it's doing to our economy. It was in response to the talk with my boss last week and how he thought the government employees didn't get hit by the recession. I compare some people's sentiments on it to crab mentality. They just want to pull others down, rather than thinking of the actual long term ramifications of it.

It's not my best post, mostly because my brain is still fuzzy from sickness, but it's a decent gathering place of a few sources, I guess, lol.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I took today off for some R&R after a rough week at work last week. My wife and I went out on a lunch date, did some grocery shopping, and come home to a voice mail message. Our kids' school went on lockdown for part of the day, after someone reported a man outside the school with what looked like a gun. The school and police seem to have responded quickly.

Kids are home okay, and I haven't heard the follow up. But hearing the kids talk about how they were scared and confused as they were called from lunch to huddle inside the kitchen with the lights off is infuriating and terrifying.

I really hope we don't end up putting goddamn guns inside the school. This is a small, conservative town. We've had a couple murders in our neighborhood lately. Dunno, kind of OT. But I'm rattled and wanted to vent.
 

FyreWulff

Member
I'm still not sure about Hilary running, but still funny that the GOP set it off.

Also, seriously? No news remark on McCain's ass backwards remark? He hasn't seemed to back down from it either.
 
I took today off for some R&R after a rough week at work last week. My wife and I went out on a lunch date, did some grocery shopping, and come home to a voice mail message. Our kids' school went on lockdown for part of the day, after someone reported a man outside the school with what looked like a gun. The school and police seem to have responded quickly.

Kids are home okay, and I haven't heard the follow up. But hearing the kids talk about how they were scared and confused as they were called from lunch to huddle inside the kitchen with the lights off is infuriating and terrifying.

I really hope we don't end up putting goddamn guns inside the school. This is a small, conservative town. We've had a couple murders in our neighborhood lately. Dunno, kind of OT. But I'm rattled and wanted to vent.

The answer is to arm your kids obviously.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Guileless, let's be clear on two things.

1. I'm not claiming that there are many non-Catholics saying that contraception is in itself sinful. I have been saying that the standard conservative Protestant position on contraception has become substantially more nuanced in recent years, especially concerning the provision of contraception by subsidy or charity. I've also said that many Protestants have decided, contra the evidence, that several forms of contraception are sinful because they cause abortions. I've been interested in the reasons for these changes.

2. I understand the arguments offered against the employer mandate. They are philosophically and legally bankrupt (and often just factually incorrect) and I've moved on to psychologizing them. Nothing I've said so far has been intended as an argument against the position of the Catholic bishops, and that debate probably isn't appropriate to this thread right now, unless lots of others are interested. I have been making claims about the reasons why non-Catholics in the religious right (say they) find these arguments convincing. This is a little surprising because one wouldn't really have expected such a backlash to the policy in the abstract.

Moving on, are you claiming that Limbaugh's position wasn't a fairly popular one among religious conservatives? The intersection of the position with the general "makers vs takers" message of the Romney campaign and the intersection of religious conservatives with Romney's voters makes that hard to believe. I certainly read and heard a lot of defenses of Limbaugh, even if "it's not the language [Romney] would have used".

Some background:
There is some disagreement within the pro-life community as to whether or not hormonal birth control can cause what they consider to be an abortion. Outside of it, there is very little reason to think that this could be the case, and every reason to think that the effect, if it exists, is tiny. This is not the impression one gets from much pro-life material, to say the least. Also, google "abortion-pill mandate". There is no evidence that the pills they're talking about and which are covered by the employer mandate can cause an abortion, even using pro-lifers' preferred definition of the word.

Finally, to this:

I'm not saying that the outrage over the employer mandate in particular was self-perpetuating, although surely it was to some extent. My claim has been that outrage from the religious right is self-perpetuating from event to event. It was initially outraged over the government telling religious universities they couldn't discriminate. This was of course a policy that the government had never done before, and a host of religious leaders and judicial scholars objected. Etc. Then that became a little too obviously racist, and they at least claimed that they didn't even want to racially discriminate anyway, so they moved on to abortion. School prayer was also in there somewhere, and the War on Christmas probably counts. Now we have the "abortion-pill mandate". I'm saying that this is basically all political opportunism at the top; the rank and file on the religious right would not have objected to these things much at all, excepting perhaps the first one, without the opportunists at the top picking targets for them. I also think that a lot of what's determined those targets is the degree to which they brought conservative Protestants into line with Catholics, creating a larger political bloc.

I don't think I'm missing the point of the disagreements. I think that the disagreements themselves are basically all about false consciousness. I'm willing to make an exception for the fight over gay rights. That's probably just some pretty deep-seated bigotry.

Re: your #1: I understand the point you're making now, but the original context of the discussion made it seem like you were saying that evangelicals oppose contraception.

Re: your #2: Whether you find the arguments against the employer mandate bankrupt or not, the issue will be ultimately decided by the Supreme Court. I guarantee that religious organizations from across the faith spectrum (i.e. not just the religious right; are they all suffering from false consciousness?) will file amicus briefs on behalf of the organization challenging the government in the lawsuit, written by clever lawyers and scholars. The Supreme Court opinion will probably be long and complex with concurrences and separate opinions. You can dismiss these arguments in a few message board posts, but the issue will be decided on a completely different level.

Re: Rush Limbaugh's arguments: I'm sure plenty of people who listened to 10 minutes of Rush Limbaugh talking about Sandra Fluke on their way to lunch and never thought about this again share his position. They won't be arguing before the Supreme Court that the mandate violates the First Amendment.

Re: the idea of self-perpetuating outrage. I'm sure, like all political movements, that the "religious right" has played up controversies for fundraising and media attention. If you think that disqualifies an organization from taking a good faith position on an issue, there won't be many left.

Re: the Catholic/evangelical rapprochement. If I understand you correctly, you think that reactionaries create a false consciousness to exploit unsophisticated people (bitter clingers) and purposely choose targets to push to bridge the Catholic-evangelical divide, e.g. abortion. Alternative theories I've seen that are more plausible to me:

1. major breakthroughs in ultrasound technology moved people (including evangelicals) towards the pro-life position
2. the warnings about the consequences of widely available abortion and birth control predicted by the Pope in that 1968 encyclical have proven largely prescient, and evangelicals recognize that now (as argued in the article you linked by the Southern Baptist theologian.)
3. the irrational anti-Catholic prejudice that was prevalent among evangelicals up until very recently has lessened considerably and so Catholic ideas are no longer rejected out of hand by them.
 

FyreWulff

Member
What's this about? I haven't heard about it.

Instead of letting her just quietly retire and go into the speech circuit, they riled her up in the Benghazi hearings and just made her look better to the base. People forgot about her health issues and just remembered her not taking the GOP's crap.

That's my take on it, anyway
 

KingK

Member
So what are the chances we get the first black president and the first female president before Versus XIII comes out?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Screen-Shot-2013-02-04-at-12.31.25-PM.png


What in the flying fuck? I mean...what? That's not even...snappy or reflexive, someone had to think about that and type it, which makes the fact that beyond being offensive its just plain stupid all the more baffling.
 
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