You should really watch this great documentary about chickens, you might learn a thing or two.
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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speculawyer
Member
Indeed. GDP is a terrible indicator. Got hit by hurricane? Hurray! Your GDP will go up because of all the rebuilding. Have lots of lawyers sucking useless money from the economy with divorces and slip & fall lawsuits? Yeah . . . GDP goes up! Have a ridiculously expensive healthcare system that provides worse outcomes than other healthcare systems? Woo-hoo! . . . GDP is higher! Lots of crime such that lots of money is spent on police, courts, prison, insurance, etc.? Excellent! . . . GDP UP!
All it measures is money flowing around . . . but it does not provide any measure as to how useful. If I spent $600 on a Playstation I'm much more happy that $600 spent on a medical test that wasn't needed. Money from factories producing goods is good but money spent on soldiers sitting a barracks is a waste. Money from crops grown on a farm is great while money spent cleaning up toxic waste that never should have been dumped sucks. Does GDP reflect this at all? Nope.
"Too much and too long, we seem to have surrendered community excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our gross national product ... if we should judge America by that - counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them. It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets.
Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."
- RFK
Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."
- RFK
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Someone needs to facebook image this.... /sarcasm
speculawyer
Member
The better point is that Reagan cut them from 70+%. It was cutting them from 70+% that works. It doesn't work when you are cutting them from 35% or whatever. It doesn't work forever as the 'Cut taxes to zero . . . infinite revenue!' Reductio ad absurdum argument meme shows.
Edit: But the fact that David Gregory pushed back at all was amazing progress. That guy usually swallows what ever bullshit they tell him with no follow-ups.
zero shift
Banned
I will be making a thread about this soon.
Avon Barksdale
Member
I remember at the end one of the GOP debates (I forgot which one), some of the candidates were arguing about who was "more conservative" than the other.
It was fucking ridiculous.
boy when that is written out in paragraph form, it is so infuriating it's easy to not get personally angry about it. How fucking dumb are these people
I remember hearing on NPR that the dude who created NPR begged people not to use this as an economic benchmark because it leaves out some very important factors
Aaron Strife
Banned
Stymied by a GOP House, Obama looks ahead to 2014 to cement his legacy
Sounds like Obama's done searching for the bipartisan unicorn. Jeb Bush has lead the charge to shitcan immigration reform, the grand bargain isn't going anywhere, a gun control package might pass in the Senate but is dead on arrival in the House, and you can forget about anything being done on climate change or the minimum wage.
If OFA is on its A-game next year like it was last year, I still don't think it'd be enough to reclaim the House. But it's all Obama can do to make sure his second term is productive. I hope they don't forget about the Senate either, losing the majority there would make things even worse.
It'd be great to have a House Speaker who actually knows what they're doing.
Sounds like Obama's done searching for the bipartisan unicorn. Jeb Bush has lead the charge to shitcan immigration reform, the grand bargain isn't going anywhere, a gun control package might pass in the Senate but is dead on arrival in the House, and you can forget about anything being done on climate change or the minimum wage.
If OFA is on its A-game next year like it was last year, I still don't think it'd be enough to reclaim the House. But it's all Obama can do to make sure his second term is productive. I hope they don't forget about the Senate either, losing the majority there would make things even worse.
It'd be great to have a House Speaker who actually knows what they're doing.
RustyNails
Member
Pretty sure passing Immigration reform will be part of that 2014 strategy. Get as many repubs as possible on the record.
1. Republicans vote for the immigration bill and risk getting primaried.
2. If they don't, well, they're not gonna win Presidential elections for a long time.
It's gonna start straight GOP civil war instead of just teaparty insurgency.
1. Republicans vote for the immigration bill and risk getting primaried.
2. If they don't, well, they're not gonna win Presidential elections for a long time.
It's gonna start straight GOP civil war instead of just teaparty insurgency.
makingmusic476
Member
Obama needs to hit the campaign trail hard next year and be as upfront and outspoken as possible.
"You want immigration reform? Elect a Democratic congress."
Etc. etc.
Get people to realize that a vote for Ds in the midterms is a vote to put his platform into action. People need to realize it takes more than a Presidential election to make things happen, but Presidents rarely act on that.
"You want immigration reform? Elect a Democratic congress."
Etc. etc.
Get people to realize that a vote for Ds in the midterms is a vote to put his platform into action. People need to realize it takes more than a Presidential election to make things happen, but Presidents rarely act on that.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Anything makes it better. I mean how many times has boehner broken the haster rule in the past 3 months? (Sandy, Fiscal Cliff, VAWA, Debt ceiling) Cut the lead down to single digits and you can start pressuring people because they know the hilldawg train is gonna come flooding in with money in 2016.
"But Obama is just Campaigner in chief... he doesn't lead and get to governing!" - Fox News
Its sad that works on some people.
The thing is it seems only to be working on the same people that would never vote for him anyway. What he really needs to make sure is people get to the polls. Obama needs to be out there. Thing is in 2010 he went into hiding during campaign season because of the health care backlash.
Giant Panda
Member
PD is actually going to win a bet!
The worst part is the hivemind mentality that anyone who doesn't embrace neoliberal economics and neoconservatism is crumbling. France is an ideal example. Ever since they didn't embrace the neoconservative era they have been a scape goat for what happens when you have an economy that doesn't embrace the new era. Except that they have less than half the poverty rate of the U.K. and Germany, higher real wages, incredible working conditions, 35 hour work week, and one of the highest productivity rates in the world. Yet everyone ignores this, or outright denies this, and focuses on how their economy has been stagnate for the past thirty years...except that it hasn't been. Its real GDP growth rate is inline with every other major European nation.
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8ehg1neoorltg_&ctype=l&met_y=evogdp_t1#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=evogdp_t1&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country_group:NMEC&idim=countryEU:FRA:ITA:GBR&ifdim=country_group&tstart=352533600000&tend=1267682400000&hl=en_US&dl=en_US&ind=false
Yet people ignore this and complain that the economy of France isn't up to the level Germany, a nation that has gotten much of its wealth by pillaging EU nations. Nevermind the failure of the United Kingdom and every other neoliberal country in Europe because Germany, a country with more than double the poverty rate, worse healthcare system, higher inequality, less wages, etc. is still more successful because it has a higher GDP rate. Its hysterical. I mean France isn't perfect as it does have an unemployment problem but what Western European nation doesn't?
It gets even more ridiculous when you look at things like how the media constantly acts like Venezuela is a nation that would become the next Zimbabwe if the oil industry collapsed. When it did in 2008, the country was hurt for two years, but it wasn't the complete massive collapse they predicted it to be. When Venezuela had one of the slowest real GDP growth rates in Latin America in 2011 it was attacked constantly, but last year when it had one of the highest it was conveniently ignored. To clarify I do believe the country would be in trouble without the oil industry but it would hardly be the mass collapse the media makes it out to be. Some of Venezuela's success over the past decade is due to Uncle Hugo. Ecuador, which many describe its leaders as Chavez done right, has undergone huge growth and social change. But because he is left wing nobody pays attention, same with Bolivia.
Modern media is a joke.
France does have huge problems because of its overregulation. For one thing they've made it really hard to fire anyone in so companies are hesitant to hire people in the first place. France would be in a much better position if it was little more business friendly and being so doesn't mean it has to abandon all of its worker protections like a short work week.
Venezuela is also been having huge problems and is being propped up to a fair degree by its oil. I don't know these things for sure but I would bet Venezuela's GDP increase last year was due to Chavez's huge election spending splurge so he could get reelected (only one of his many ways to rig the election). Not sure why complain about Ecuador's never been painted to have a bad reputation from anything I've read in the media.
Be nice if he simply abandoned it. The dude is going to go down as one of the worst speakers of the house. Abandoning the majority of the majority completely is about the only thing he can do to save his legacy
NYCmetsfan
Banned
How does that save his legacy? it shows he can't do anything and the dems and the moderate wing in his party has the actual leverage. He's finished. Unless they take back the senate Which I don't think is very likely (Maybe they'll tie or have it by 1 seat) they're gonna lose in 2016 (Is there any possibility of mid-decade re-districting if certain states get democratic control? Though I think state gerrymandering is on a whole other level than house gerrymandering, I know if florida its disgusting, we voted for Obama twice and we have close to a super majority of republicans).
How would you get Republicans on the record on things they don't to be on the record with?
Boehner will never let the bill reach the floor and in the senate they'll just filibuster it.
Oh sure. I wasn't suggesting he not do this; it seems like the only intelligent course of action. Not trying means you have nobody to blame but yourself for the outcome.
Just resigning to the actual results thanks to how fucked up Republicans are.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Force the vote by having Obama run around the country saying "vote" if they don't then you point to congress and say "look theyre not doing anything, vote them out". That's what his backup bill is showing he has a plan that democratic voters support.
Immigration is targeted at a certain voter block. Obama will just take out ads on univision saying if you don't vote this isn't going to get done.
If you have the 2012 electorate or anywhere near it the house can probably be won back by a close margin.
Thats a better legacy than doing jack shit. It shows that he actually has some balls, willing to go against tradition, and actually get some shit done
Carpe Libertatem
Member
Yep, pull a Harry Truman and characterize the GOP House and Senate minority as a "Do Nothing Congress." Call for a special session of Congress and and push them to vote.
Really, though, just more Harry Truman in general would be great.
RustyNails
Member
See that's something we don't know. But all signs point to the view that Immi reform is something GOP senior leaders see as their last attempt at minority vote. Karl Rove, Boehner and even McCain understand that it's needed. Rubio sees it as his gateway to 2016. See they wake up sweating in the middle of the night after nightmares of purple Texas dancing with a sombrero in 2020.
PhoenixDark
Banned
So pretty much he realizes nothing will get done; he can kiss guns, pre-k, and eventually immigration goodbye. Dems won't take back the House until 2016 at the earliest, and that would be a miracle; 2020 or 2022 seems more likely due to the Census/gerrymandering.
I hope the dems push forward a pass to citizenship that takes 6 months.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Probably. Though if OFA intensely targets say, 30 districts and win (slightly more than) half of them that would get Dems past the post. They did a damn good job of that in 2012, the problem is OFA only cared about the presidential campaign and didn't do much work for the House races.
empty vessel
Member
Sadly, much of the developed world is acting just as moronically.
PhoenixDark
Banned
You're assuming dems won't lose any seats that republicans are targeting...why?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Because if you win those seats he's talking about you're not gonna lose those seats. Things don't usually break even in elections at best its 60-40
Every few generations greedy assholes manage to get too powerful and fuck everyone, and every few generation we have to slap them around.
The good news is that it get easier with each iteration and less people tend to die in the process.
The bad news is that 2008 apparently didn't hurt enough for people to wake up, so it will probably get worse before it gets better.
But who knows, history is full of wildcards, a legislative superhero, a great supreme court or an unexpectedly effective grassroots campaign can save us all some shock therapy.
Aaron Strife
Banned
i'd assume OFA would also make efforts to hold those seats, yes. it's a longshot probability in any case
Well, we wouldn't have had the sequester if Romney was president .
But I don't think Mitt gets the (theoretical) credit for that.
Actually what bothered me was that he kept saying those two believed in compromise and would do anything to make sure the sequester wouldn't happen/union would still be intact.
Link
The Autumn Wind
How come this applies to Obama, but not House Republicans?
EDIT - This is obviously a rhetorical question.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Lincoln compromised SOOO MUCH with the south
Black Mamba
Member
I wonder how Bill O would respond if Harry Reid fillibustered all bills to end sequester without new revenues on the table from President Mittens.
I'm sure he would be complaining about his leadership and not Democrat obstructionism.
I'm sure he would be complaining about his leadership and not Democrat obstructionism.
At what time do you think we'll hit the tipping point, where there is too much power (knowledge, technology, money) concentrated by the aristocracy that we won't be able to swing the pendulum back in our favor? Is the fact that 2008 didn't hurt us enough a sign that its movement is slowing down? I know there are naysayers each go around, and that it doesn't at all aide us, but it's hard to feel optimistic sometimes.
But the powerful are generally getting weaker, in the long run. The aristocracy has a hell of a lot less power than it had when its members were actually called aristocrats. They're weaker than when they were called robber barons. They hitched their wagons to white resentment and rode it for half a century recently, but as that fades in importance there's no reason we can't have a strong labor movement.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Gilded age I think had even worse inequalities of power and technology.
speculawyer
Member
Really? So basically nothing is going to get done for the next 4 years? That's just fucking great.
I was absolutely certain that the great recession was enough.
It might just be a generational thing (which to a large part it is) and we'll see a slow and gradual movement toward more sane politics, and it's true, radicalization tend to come in cycles, but I don't know, I think technology is bringing changes and challenges that our politics and our economy is not ready to tackle.
I sure hope we're not going to have to go through a 4 years depression and 40% unemployment again.
I'm not surprised at all. Though i at least thought immigration reform would get done...
Guess our only hope for anything major is the US-EU free trade agreement
speculawyer
Member
How can people listen to someone that says such mind-bogglingly stupid things?
New courts find money in politics to be unconstitutional and demand that campaigns be fully funded through taxes
Lincoln definitely believed in compromise, many of his contemporaries thought too much so.
He wouldn't accept with secession, that is true.
Yeah, I suppose that's true. Power used to be held by people who called themselves gods, and we have made great strides at attaining equality. However at the same time, we are once again complicit at giving up what little political will we gained. A mob cannot take on an army, people have been systematically duped into thinking that the way forward is to defund our education and that taxation is theft. The common belief here in America is that people on the top earned their place there, and that knowledge and culture can be held in the hands of corporations for all eternity (life+80 years plus unlimited extensions). And it is fair and legit that politicians can lie, get paid off, and are expected to look out for the interests of inanimate objects over that of the people.
I'm probably just tired, it's obvious it isn't as bad as it was in the past, but I would hate to see a relapse.
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