"Productivity" includes work done by job title, obviously.So very this.
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
RustyNails
Member
I'm sort of surprised at Obama advocating Palestinian rights little more fiercely. Most of the presidents just go there and give a grand speech that satisfies neohawks in Pentagon and voterbase in US and that's it. Palestinians having a state is counter productive to US foreign policy.
Cautiously optimistic.
Cautiously optimistic.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Why? The media already has "Obama trip a failure" articles written, they're just waiting to push the send button. Nothing was going to get done, nothing will get done. And you know Israel will go back to building settlements the minute Obama leaves.
speculawyer
Member
Well, at this point the Israelis would be crazy if they don't push for a Palestinian state. If they don't then they will be stuck with a non Jewish state (because they won't be the majority), an Apartheid state (which would eventually fall due to the unjust nature of it), or ethnic cleansing (not acceptable in the modern world).
But foolishly, the hard-right of Israel seems happy with the Apartheid state. That is just asking for trouble.
More and more I'm starting to think a one state solution is going to be the best for everyone.
Ethnocracy is just a bad idea, and Judaism is not even a real ethnicity (or at the very least, it's something different than other thing we label as an ethnic group), you effectively have a country for a religion.
speculawyer
Member
C'mon. How is Jesus supposed to come back if we don't support Israel.
I think in the minds of a lot of old people, Paul Ryan went from a guy trying to wrest control of the country away from that Kenyan socialist Muslim to a guy trying to reduce my medicare & social security. The never liked Ryan, they just hate Obama.
No different than Bush winning in 2004 but then when Bush tried to privatize Social Security his own voters turned on him.
speculawyer
Member
Well, in the big picture, that would be best. But I don't think we are mature enough of as a species for that. Way too much religious superstition for that. So, as they say, good fences make good neighbors.
or simply people began to realize that he wasn't a "serious person".
Rocket Scientist
Member
Hm, can't wait to see a video of the speech on Palestine. If anyone comes across a link please do share.
Was there any news about them approving ''new'' settlements right before the trip? It's become a tradition to approve new buildings right before American diplomats visit.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Not national politics, but goddamn what a smackdown.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Israel stopped right before Obama arrived, and I guarantee will restart construction the second Air Force One leaves the area.
Oh that is just goddamn beautiful.
Rocket Scientist
Member
I'm honestly surprised they even did that. I expected another announcement for new settlements. Though you're right they will continue anyway.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Any bets on what excuse the far right will use when he gets stomped in a state election?
I'll can begruingly accept that Israeli and Palestinians might not be mature enough, but as a species?
Countries like Israel are not the norm, and there are many many places that works remarkably well with a ethnically and religiously diverse population (in fact, I would argue that this is by far the superior model).
I don't think he will run, I imagine he will stay in Iowa. I take offense to every one of his positions, so I imagine he is just perfect for his district.
This morning was 'great', he brought up Benghazi, then moved on to attack unions, and after he was done with that he advocated child labor, animal abuse, and lambasted the use of fuel taxes being used on expanding public transport and archaeological survey of land intended for road construction. Thankfully he's not my representative.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Whoops meant state race. It's very hard to see him winning a senate race.
That's just perfect. It really is.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Always sad to see someone from the left post this.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
RustyNails
Member
Yeah most likely.
Until Obama names Bill Clinton as Mideast Envoy, nothing significant is going to be accomplished. But you know speeches from POTUS are analyzed minutely down to every word, and Obama just putting the plight of Palestinians on the table was a good first step.
PhoenixDark
Banned
You'd have to be a fool to believe this. For all his faults Obama's (most of) domestic policies are quite different from Bush's. I think he's legitimately worse than Bush on civil liberties. In terms of foreign policy we haven't started an unnecessary ground war so Obama wins by default.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Hehehe, these anti immigration people are hypocritical as fuck.
Black Mamba
Member
???
A stable and peaceful Palestinian state would be the best thing to happen in the region regarding US foreign policy.
speculawyer
Member
Yes, as a species. I know we like to think that we are largely beyond such tribalism but it still exists. Everywhere. Pakistan & India. Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans don't fully trust each other. Various tribes & ethnic factions in Africa fight each other. Sunni v. Shia.
We have certainly gotten MUCH better over the last 50 years. But there is a lot of underlying mistrust, discrimination, and bigotry. Even within the same ethnic groups there is bigotry. The Burakumin in Japan. The Romani people (AKA gypsy) in Europe. Protestants v. Catholics. Light skin v. dark skin black people.
Heck, I worry about Europe. With the Euro situation the place is becoming a mess. That neo-Nazi Golden Darn party in Greece got like 20% of the vote. I'm no Ron Paul conspiracy theorist thinking that a race war will eventually break out. But as time get tough sometimes these tensions that have been papered over rise back up. The Sunni & Shia of Iraq sorta got along . . . but with the stress of the Iraq war, it rose back to the surface.
So I hope and believe we can continue to make things better. But I worry about these ancient biases returning during bad times.
i dont think he's worse then Bush, i think he appears worse then Bush because expectations on him were different.
That being said, from what I expected from a Democrat, he's an embarassment
Aaron Strife
Banned
obama would probably have an easier time getting a two state solution than a grand bargain with the GOP
RustyNails
Member
A stable and peaceful Palestinian state will mean Israel can't have a boogeymans and hence cant get funding for things like Iron dome and other good stuff courtesy of US taxpayer money. The US foreign policy is still heavily influenced by AIPAC.
el retorno
Member
No. AIPAC reflect the public opinion, thats what needs to change. Senators are not brainwashed or controlled by AIPAC and their threat of attacks wouldn't be viable if the public didn't have a predisposition to Israel.
A palestinian state would help the US because it would reduce one of the most important reasons for extremism in the Middle East. Have you read bin laden's declaration of war. its one of the reasons he hated us so much.
Goddamn
speculawyer
Member
LOL. Sad but perhaps true.
I wonder what the difficulty rankings are between these difficult deals:
-A grand bargain with the GOP on budget matters.
-A grand bargain with Iran on nuclear enrichment
-A peace deal between Israelis & Palestinians
-A peace deal with North Korea
-An opening up of Cuba & dropping sanctions
It would be nice to see Obama accomplish at least one of those during the next 4 years. But probably none of them will be done.
speculawyer
Member
Oh c'mon. As long as they are "God's chosen people", they'll continue getting plenty of aid.
Black Mamba
Member
A peaceful Palestinian state would mean the other countries around them would have to internalize their problems on a massive scale.
Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to be a boogeyman. If you could literally offer Israel a stable and peaceful Palestinian state they would take it before you finish your question.
Just because we support them and are influenced by the AIPAC doesn't mean it's because Israel wants to always be in conflict. This is a gross misunderstanding of the Palestinian-Israel conflict.
I'm not sure this is true. Every state wants a Goldstein, every hero needs a villain. As long as there is an us, there is an other - and they use it to maintain power and control.
TacticalFox88
Banned
So, despite Obama's remarks, the President of Israel has presented President Obama with the Israeli Medal of Distinction, Israel's highest civilian honor. President Obama is the FIRST SITTING PRESIDENT to be given this honor.
Goddamn, hahahaha.
IDK if this is irony, trolling, or some combination of the two, but goddamn.
Goddamn, hahahaha.
IDK if this is irony, trolling, or some combination of the two, but goddamn.
speculawyer
Member
I'd like to believe that. And I think a majority of Israelis would agree with that.
But I think you under estimate the trouble-making ability of the Israeli settler extremists, the Christian Zionists, and the Palestinian extremists to scuttle any such deal.
A huge problem with any peace deal is the ability for the extremists to destroy a deal.
Really? Wow. That is going to make some right-wing heads explode. They've been saying how he is a huge enemy of Israel.
Black Mamba
Member
Nah, it's not like that. You think Israel wants to be continuously at war? There's no real upside for them. It's not like the MIC in the US.
And I don't know what power and control they need. They have nukes, so only the suicidal will fuck with them harshly. Israeli internal politics is corrupt as fuck, too. Nothing external is going to matter in that sense.
Everyone in Israel enters service, unlike in the US. And they almost all have to use it. Again, unlike the US. It's not the same. They don't want it. For them they see it as a necessity given circumstances. If they could be guaranteed peace, they'd take it. But we're far ways away from that reality right now.
I most certainly don't. But for there to be a stable peace, those extremist would already be shut down so that doesn't come into play in my hypothetical.
But the extremists are not within the leaderships of either people (I mean, there are intertwining of it, but at the end of the day even Bibi would take a guaranteed peace).
Israel and the US would love a stable 2 state solution. It is by far in their best interests. That doesn't mean it's close to being a reality right now.
RustyNails
Member
I absolutely agree that an independent Palestinian state is best for the entire world and will greatly accomplish destroy the biggest grievance of folks like Bin Laden and KSM. What I'm saying is that there are powerful people who do not want that to happen because they have lot more to lose.
And I disagree that Israel is yearning for peace. Nope. If Israel wanted peace, then dismantle the illegal settlements instead of importing zionist cuckoos and settling them there. It might surprise you to learn that both US and Hamas are in agreement over armistice lines, yet Israel is not. US, UK, United Nations, Hamas and PA all agree over the 1967 borders as the map of future Palestine except Israel.
The only thing more unexpected would be him winning the Nobel Peace Prize.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Moderates in Israel would of course accept a peaceful solution with the Palestinians. The issue is the radical/extreme Israeli's who unfortunately are sprinkled within the government and their armed forces.
Israel is a country, a country doesn't have wishes, but Netanyahu most certainly want them to be a boogeyman.
speculawyer
Member
That is not really true.
Hamas probably wants the 1967 border period whereas the US, UK, and others go for the 67 borders with some 'mutually agreed upon land swaps'. It is a subtle distinction but a hugely important one.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Rep. Steve Stockman said:
Rep. Steve Stockman said:
*sigh*
Is it wrong to come to hate your own species?
It seems I can't even go 5 seconds without being utterly embarrassed by these people. And here I am constantly metering my power use, being conscientious of all my purchases, and avoid travel to places I can't walk and bike to but it seems that the solution has been here all along. Let's just poke more holes in it!
California is bankrupt?
Got to admire his commitment to being wrong about everything though.
A related question: how much revenue do states actually derive from allowing oil drilling? I didn't think that we did the sort of thing a few other countries do and charge substantial fees to oil companies for the right to take oil out of our ground, but I could easily be wrong. Is the main gain of allowing drilling, to everyone who is not a shareholder of the company doing the drilling, just the jobs created in the state?
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