Through agreement of a 2 state solution.
The settlements physically prevent that.
Removing the settlements will make the process infinitely easier, and everybody knows you'll remove most or all of them in the end, you literally gain nothing by having so many people invested in the failure of the peace process in the middle of Palestinian population.
And fuck, Israel could use some trust building measures with the Palestinians, because Israel signed numerous treaty regarding the West Bank (Camp David, Oslo, Israeli Jordan peace treaty) and yet somehow settlements only grow in number, there is a lot to be gain by Israel showing that it's willing to stand to its crazy fucks in the West Bank (that apply also to Israel itself, I think there's an irrational fear that civil war will start if they try to dismantle settlements, and I think it's completely unfounded).
This seems to be in conflict with: "If Israel dismantled the settlement tomorrow there would be peace within a year."
One one hand you argue a peace treaty will come if Israel dismantles first, but now you are saying a peace treaty will include dismantling. I agree with the latter, not the former.
You really going to lawyer my words like this?
You honestly don't understand what I was trying to say there?
Once again, I argue that the settlements are the biggest obstacle for peace, and that all other problems are very solvable.
Whoa, no. Under those and other conditions.
No, just no.
In fact, they are willing to settle for much less.
While there is truth to this, Egypt was still defeated, gained nothing back they sought for, and even had their army surrounded before the end (and allowed the Israeli's across the Suez). The '73 was wasn't so bad from a total standpoint, but the '67 war was a disaster an coupled together I stand by what I said.
The '73 war was so pointless that I don't think you can say anyone won there (though if you go by death toll than yes, Israel 'won' handily), but if we're talking about public humiliation then I don't think you can make the case for it.
I mean damn, Sadat was assassinated during a celebration for that war.
Or to look at the other side, Israel don't celebrate the '73 war, they celebrated the shit out of '67 with victory rallies, songs and commemorative coffee table books, after '73 they sacked pretty much all their political and military leaders and eventually returned the Sinai (something they were unwilling to do before).
There is a difference between what people want and what people will settle for. Stopping the settlements isn't all they want.
Most of the Palestinians I know would be beyond ecstatic for a Palestinian state in '67 borders without any settlements. Seriously, what are you basing those assertions?
But ending the settlements does nothing for all the other issues. Contiguous state, airport, water and power, work permits & checkpoints, right of return, status of Jerusalem. When there is an actual solution worked out and agreed upon, then yes both sides will stop. But if the Israelis just made 1 concession tomorrow unilaterally and ended the settlements, it doesn't change everything else. And the Palestinians will fight, and probably much harder, for the other things once that happens.
The dismantling can only be part of an overall agreement (the expansions, however, can stop without that).
It's like campaign finance in this country, fixing it won't solve everything, but nothing will get fixed before you resolve that issue.
And again, why can't Israel just dismantle the settlements?
What purpose do they serve outside blocking the two state solution?
Israel is going to save billion of dollars too.
The trust will be built from other things. The Israelis won't leave the settlements until there is an agreement (or at least getting close to one) and the Palestinian leadership understand this. They're not idiots. And they're not going to agree to anything that keep all the settlement (some with land swaps will happen, though).
You don't get to tell to other people what will build trust in them.
You have no fucking idea what the settlers are doing in the west bank or how they are (rightfully) perceived, and I'm telling you (yeah sorry, gonna move to 'telling' here, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I actually spent many years in that part of the world, so I think at least when it comes to what people want, my opinion have a bit more weight) nothing will gain Palestinian trust than dismantling of settlements.
You also must remember that there is a big political struggle in Palestine between those who want armed violent resistance and those who want non-violent one.
Nothing will bolster the non-violent crowd like a dismantling of settlements (but Israel of course does the exact opposite, they concede to Hamas after rocket attacks and humiliate the secular leaders in the West Bank).
No. The more Israel treats them like assholes the more they will attack (unless they hit a breaking point but again, I'm not saying this can happen). But if Israel makes a concession without nothing back from Palestine, it will only embolden them to attack more, too. It's a catch-22.
The only thing that can work is Israel giving something up and Palestinians returning the favor. And the big problem here is neither side trusts the other enough to take that step at the same time. A Prisoner's dilemma if you will. We need to get back to Oslo when both sides could get into the room and shake hands, give up something to one other to build upon trust. We're far from that point, again.
Like I said, everyone and their mother involved knows for the most part what the 2 state solution looks like. They basically already hashed it out years ago. It's really not much of an issue, anymore. The problem is how to get to two sides back to the stage where they accept that and to do that they have to trust one another. And as time goes on, this gets harder and harder. We need strong leadership in the US (if Obama could have been it he is way too concerned with what is going on here and fairly so) and Bibi isn't that guy in Israel for sure. I think a door might open with a Clinton presidency.
You keep acting like it's in Israel interest to keep the settlement and they're giving something up by dismantling it.
I do not accept that on any level.
And it's true that everyone knows what a 2 state solution will look like, it will be largely based on the '67 borders, and I don't know how familiar you are with the West Bank, but you can't have that without massive dismantling of settlements, and Israel had never ever shown willingness to do that (even though they promise many times, and yes, that includes Rabin's government).
The Palestinians don't believe Israel, they think they use the peace process only to get some quiet while they further expand the settlements, and honestly, it's hard to blame them.
