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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
PhoenixDark said:
This is one of the worst posts I've ever seen. At least Hillary hasn't authorized the assassination of a US citizen
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Hey, I'm not defending Obama for anything like like that. Just saying of all the democrats up for 2016 primaries, Hilary, the one that voted for Iraq war, that has been against any sort of government transparency like wikileaks, that has been for torture up until her presidency run of 2008, is the most likely to do exactly that when she gets her turn.
 
A

Averon

Member
http://www.businessinsider.com/fiscal-cliff-deal-2012-12

*The Democrats agreed to raise the income threshold for tax increases to $450,000 a year (couples) from the prior $250,000.

* However, to the Republicans' chagrin, the Democrats insist on raise capital gains and dividend taxes to 20% on households over $250,000 and reducing some of the allowable deductions. Importantly, this, too, is a massive tax cut relative to the scheduled changes, which would boost dividend taxes to 40% on incomes over $250,000.

* The Democrats conceded on the estate tax: They'll keep the threshold for taxable estates at $5 million, with a 35% rate over that level. This, again, is a massive tax cut over current law, in which the threshold will drop to $1 million with a much higher rate.

* The Democrats' offer would permanently protect middle-class households from the Alternative Minimum Tax. No details on how this would work.

* On the spending side, the Democrats' offer would delay the "sequester" (automatic spending cuts) until 2015. This would cost an estimated $200 billion. But it would avoid the cuts to the military budget that the Republicans are so desperate to avoid.

* The Democrats would also extend unemployment benefits for a year, extend farm subsidies for a year, and avoid a 27% cut in Medicare payments to doctors. The Republicans say they want offsets to these spending cuts.
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T

Tim-E

Member
If Cuomo becomes the democrat's nominee say hello to god awful President Rubio. Old fashioned North Eastern liberals do not do well in general elections.

TacticalFox88 said:
I'm not sure how I feel about this. Does some things I want and others I hate
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This is what compromise looks like. For better or worse, we have to work with the other side because a permanent Democrat supermajority isn't feasible. Polls overwhelmingly say that people want to see compromise, and it looks a hell of a lot better than the stonewalling of the last two years. The ideologues on both ends of the spectrum will hate it, but this is a moderate country and therefore should be governed like one. I'm pretty firmly liberal, but I've accepted that things will not always be to my exact liking and I welcome a bit of compromise because it's what's most likely to get things done.
 
D

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Tim-E said:
If Cuomo becomes the democrat's nominee say hello to god awful President Rubio. Old fashioned North Eastern liberals do not do well in general elections.



This is what compromise looks like. For better or worse, we have to work with the other side because a permanent Democrat supermajority isn't feasible. Polls overwhelmingly say that people want to see compromise, and it looks a hell of a lot better than the stonewalling of the last two years. The ideologues on both ends of the spectrum will hate it, but this is a moderate country and therefore should be governed like one. I'm pretty firmly liberal, but I've accepted that things will not always be to my exact liking and I welcome a bit of compromise because it's what's most likely to get things done.
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If a black man from Chicago can become president then anything is possible.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
I intensely dislike the fact that every time we want to do something for almost all of America or even just a lot of poor people who need the help we also have to give up something to rich people who are clearly doing fine enough.

Oh well, the rich own America, more news at 11...
 
T

Tim-E

Member
Doc Holliday said:
If a black man from Chicago can become president then anything is possible.
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All he had to do was call his crony Chicago thug gangsters to cook the books for him twice! Bully a few poll watchers into buying "protection" in a few swing counties and we're set.


RDreamer said:
I intensely dislike the fact that every time we want to do something for almost all of America or even just a lot of poor people who need the help we also have to give up something to rich people who are clearly doing fine enough.

Oh well, the rich own America, more news at 11...
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It's certainly frustrating, but I've slowly been coming around to the mindset that I'd rather get most of what I want through compromise than shoot for the stars and get nothing.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
* On the spending side, the Democrats' offer would delay the "sequester" (automatic spending cuts) until 2015. This would cost an estimated $200 billion. But it would avoid the cuts to the military budget that the Republicans are so desperate to avoid.
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Are you fucking kidding me?
 
G

gcubed

Member
Tim-E said:
If Cuomo becomes the democrat's nominee say hello to god awful President Rubio. Old fashioned North Eastern liberals do not do well in general elections.



This is what compromise looks like. For better or worse, we have to work with the other side because a permanent Democrat supermajority isn't feasible. Polls overwhelmingly say that people want to see compromise, and it looks a hell of a lot better than the stonewalling of the last two years. The ideologues on both ends of the spectrum will hate it, but this is a moderate country and therefore should be governed like one. I'm pretty firmly liberal, but I've accepted that things will not always be to my exact liking and I welcome a bit of compromise because it's what's most likely to get things done.
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That's not much compromise. That's a republican bill with some throw ins for democrats
 
P

Pai Pai Master

Banned
I'm okay with most of the compromises except for the sequester delay. This country needs to face reality and spend less on the military...but I guess that is hard to swallow for politicians until all troops are out of Afghanistan.
 
E

Eric_S

Member
Averon said:
The Democrats conceded on the estate tax: They'll keep the threshold for taxable estates at $5 million, with a 35% rate over that level. This, again, is a massive tax cut over current law, in which the threshold will drop to $1 million with a much higher rate.
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Am I the only one that thinks that estate and indirectly gift taxes are one of the more important tools (if perhaps not the most important) to ensure that income inequaleties aren't permanented, and to avoid as much as possible the formation of an aristochratic class within a society?
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Eric_S said:
Am I the only one that thinks that estate and indirectly gift taxes are one of the more important tools (if perhaps not the most important) to ensure that income inequaleties aren't permanented, and to avoid as much as possible the formation of an aristochratic class within a society?
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Indeed, that's one of the things that pisses me off the most about this "compromise." There's no reality where conceding on that point makes any goddamned sense at all in my mind. The republicans really do only care about the rich, and the democrats let them get away with it... The fact that we can't lower the threshold and raise the tax there should point to the fact that we already have a powerful aristocratic class in this society. They've already won.


CyclopsRock said:
Indeed, my lingo is all frazzled. My point was that the Democrats position was not strengthened since the election.
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If the people voting for you and electing you yet again as you run on your plan doesn't strengthen your position in an elected democracy, then what in hell does?
 
G

Gruco

Banned
Really don't see what Dems are getting in return for Div/Cap gains, estate, and moving to 450. Unemployment extension is not worth all of that.

I can't really see / justify the upside on this.
 
W

worldrunover

Member
CyclopsRock said:
Indeed, my lingo is all frazzled. My point was that the Democrats position was not strengthened since the election.
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Surely you would agree that the president sets the agenda for the country. When that president gets re-elected, he gains political capital in order to implement that agenda. Or at least in theory, he should. The Republicans decide to throw hissy fits and refuse to acknowledge that their guy to set their agenda only received 47% support. Welcome to democracy.

That deal proposed is a turd wrapped inside another smellier turd. No military cuts, minimal tax increases, and another sequester fight two years from now. Does nothing to address the debt ceiling, and forces another unemployment benefits fight a year from now.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Gruco said:
Really don't see what Dems are getting in return for Div/Cap gains, estate, and moving to 450. Unemployment extension is not worth all of that.

I can't really see / justify the upside on this.
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Me neither. They really did collapse and fold in the end, if this report is true.

PD redeemed.
 
A

Averon

Member
Will Boehner even bring such a compromise bill to a vote? The only chance for this bill to pass is with significant Dem votes, because Boehner's caucus sure as hell won't vote for this.
 
D

dabig2

Member
Looks like a shitty deal. I can't believe we can still only get very, very temporary spending cuts to help the most vulnerable of our society while allowing permanent tax cuts. And the Republicans want even more blood.

And now I hear the sequestration is actually only being delayed by 3 months (just in time for another debt ceiling hostage taking).
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Y2Kev said:
But there's no actual compromise so why are y'all so nervous? That wouldn't pass the house.
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If Dems get behind it, it would. And if Obama, Reid and Pelosi are supportive of it, then Congressional Dems would largely fall in line, grudgingly.

And I am, as always, responding to news contingent on the fact that it is not reality yet. Which is to say, if that's the shape of the deal, it's terrible. We should know in a few hours if it is or not.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
So it looks like it is reported that we have large permanent tax cuts for the rich in exchange for a temporary increase in discretionary and military spending, a temporary extension of unemployment benefits, a temporary extension of farm subsidies, and an increase in payments to doctors through Medicare. As far as I know, the only thing reportedly obtained by Democrats that Republicans actually fully oppose is the extension of unemployment benefits and, perhaps, the temporary extension of discretionary (not military) spending. Is that right? Pretty bad. I wouldn't be on board with it. It would be especially stupid for Democrats to give permanent tax cuts to the rich, given that this is their only real bargaining chip, i.e., the only thing that Republicans really give a shit about.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Dax01 said:
You know what would solve the fiscal cliff? Secession.
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Or letting someone with a brain negotiate. You can thank Obama for this laughable "compromise" which is one of the most laughable caves in some time. He RAN on getting rid of these hrs and won a large victory. If he cannot get rid of them at this point, why should we expect any dem to do better in the future.

If this passes we're stuck with that rate. Lower revenue for nothing
 
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