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[ClovingWestbrook]

Discuss the rumored details? Fine. But some of you are acting like this is a done deal and will be signed by Obama tonight. I guess if you throw enough darts at a wall you'll eventually hit your target, eh PD?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1/the-case-for-the-dems-negotiating-strategy/

Yep.

 

[el retorno]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1/the-case-for-the-dems-negotiating-strategy/

thats crap. people know and voted for the 250,000. stand firm pass 250 in the senate and have a president who'll stand firm on that. this reasoning is justifying gop hostage taking and dems ceding the fact that gop messages better and they are wimps. I want to see the gop stand up to the heat protecting half millionares

 

[The Librarian]

 

[el retorno]

better be telling him to jump

 

[Byakuya769]

McConnell and Biden are reading GAF for input.

Because discussing what we don't like about it can in no way lead to any other action. Sit down.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Man i love politics lol, almost as good as The Wire.

 

[The Librarian]

Obama delivering remarks on the fiscal cliff to middle class Americans at 1:30pm EST.

 

[el retorno]

Obama delivering remarks on the fiscal cliff to middle class Americans at 1:30pm EST.

announce he's caved but that its a "win" for millions of middle class families?

 

[Y2Kev]

I have instructed congress to finish the the owning of millions of Americans. God bless you all~

 

[The Technomancer]

Obama delivering remarks on the fiscal cliff to middle class Americans at 1:30pm EST.

This had better be fucking good

 

[The Librarian]

https://twitter.com/brianbeutler/status/285805285107449856

Sen. Rockefeller now joining Sens. Harkin, Sanders, Merkley, and Franken in Harry Reid's office.

 

[Brinbe]

sigh... =(

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Time to change the title to OT| Weeeeeeenie...le sigh

 

[mackaveli]

so why is it that the democrats are caving exactly?

Is it because the tax hike will only be on people making $400k instead of the $250k originally?

 

[PhoenixDark]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1/the-case-for-the-dems-negotiating-strategy/

This is why I don't like Sargent. He spins everything for democrats

What's to stop republicans from demanding higher rates? A from president with the senate behind him, and a smaller House majority for republicans. The 250k has already passed, and would likely be quickly passed in the House

 

[RDreamer]

https://twitter.com/brianbeutler/status/285805285107449856

Hah, knew Sanders would be in there. It's funny that he's not even my senator, but I know I can count on him to fight for me and do the right thing. I'm guessing Baldwin and Warren will do the same when they get in.

 

[el retorno]

This is why I don't like Sargent. He spins everything for democrats

What's to stop republicans from demanding higher rates? A from president with the senate behind him, and a smaller House majority for republicans. The 250k has already passed, and would likely be quickly passed in the House

Because they the "nerds" of Washington. Keep appeasing with the hope the bullies change. They won't

 

[speculawyer]

It a complete non surprise, Obama confirms that he is a pussy.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

so why is it that the democrats are caving exactly?

Is it because the tax hike will only be on people making $400k instead of the $250k originally?

That, estate tax...

 

[The Librarian]

Here's the preliminary details on the deal, with added caveat that it's not speaking about successful passage.

 

[Fragamemnon]

If the deal is even somewhat disappointing then liberal House Dems should make Boehner get the votes for it out of the depths of his own crazy caucus.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Less revenue than Boehner offered at beginning of negotiations lmao

 

[el retorno]

Here's the preliminary details on the deal, with added caveat that it's not speaking about successful passage.

The republicans are gonna have the messaging in the next round that they've already given up revenues and now its time for cuts. Lots of them. The house isn't gonna give them the debt ceiling without them.

More the this crap in a few months, from crisis to crisis.

 

[B-Dubs]

Here's the preliminary details on the deal, with added caveat that it's not speaking about successful passage.

I like the bump in the estate tax if nothing else (should start at 1mil not 5 tho). The Cap Gains is definitely a cave though, they should have gotten at least 25% not 20%. Decrease tax benefits for high income earners is nice, could be better though.

The republicans are gonna have the messaging in the next round that they've already given up revenues and now its time for cuts. Lots of them. The house isn't gonna give them the debt ceiling without them.

More the this crap in a few months

Pretty much. I can only hope that Obama kills the Debt Ceiling, it makes no damn sense to vote on it anyway.

 

[Acheron]

Less revenue than Boehner offered at beginning of negotiations lmao

Boehner's offer revenue had no value, as it was representative of his not his caucus' starting point.

 

[el retorno]

Pretty much. I can only hope that Obama kills the Debt Ceiling, it makes no damn sense to vote on it anyway.

I've given up on him. He can't stand up and I do think PD is somewhat right in his contention that Obama cares about his legacy and deals rather than good policy. He's done this every time its old and frustrating. He's been good for social issues and i'd still rather take this than romney but the dems have given republicans pretty much complete on economic policy and messaging. How are we ever gonna raise taxes if we can't even with this crisis when the people support it.

The republicans are crazy and the dems are just the republicans of Reagan when it comes to fiscal policy. I don't see how this is changing anytime soon.

 

[Averon]

Let's not kid ourselves. The Dems had all the leverage and look how much they still gave away. I fully expect the debt ceiling fight to be a massacre.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

Why are we even arguing over the tax rates? Just quoting some Matt Yglesias here:

But it also has substantial virtues. Rescinding the high-end Bush tax cuts doesn't feed the hungry, educate children, or treat the sick. It doesn't curb pollution and it doesn't reduce unemployment. It's something Democrats think should be done in the long term to reduce the need for long-term cuts to federal retirement programs, but in the short term it's not something that would make anyone in America better off in any concrete way. The stuff Reid is talking about trading for would.

Should making sure that we have enough revenue for Medicare 10 years from now be our top concern or other things? 10 years from now more people will be on the program, and it will be even harder to cut. Income tax rates should not be our line in the sand. Estate and capital gains should be.

Also quoting some Ezra:

The White House laughs off the GOP’s theory that they can use the debt ceiling to extract big spending cuts without any further tax increases. For one thing, Boehner wouldn’t know how to achieve his “dollar-for-dollar” rule if you gave him total control of the budget. Raising the debt ceiling will cost around $1.5 trillion through 2014. Boehner has never named spending cuts even in the neighborhood of $1.5 trillion. In fact, he’s never named many entitlement cuts at all. Republicans actually seem terrified of entitlement cuts.

“You either cut Medicare or we default the country?” Asks one top Democrat, describing the fight the GOP is setting up. “And we don’t have the guts to put out our Medicare cuts so you need to put them our for us? And now you need to round up the Democratic votes to help us blackmail you? That’s the plan?”

 

[Byakuya769]

This had better be fucking good

Oh, it's going to be real good.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Jesus fuck, even without a second term to worry about, Obama STILL fucking caves?

I wanted Cenk to eat crow dammit!

FUCK!

 

[pigeon]

I don't like this deal and we're probably better off if it fails. But here's a possible long game argument: Obama doesn't need to raise taxes on the rich by any specific amount. He just needs to raise their taxes by some amount, while getting some economic protections like UE extension at the same time. Then he can argue that he raised taxes in a recession and the economy got better, so there's no need to worry about raising taxes again.

 

[The Librarian]

Jesus fuck, even without a second term to worry about, Obama STILL fucking caves?

I wanted Cenk to eat crow dammit!

FUCK!

If this deal were to pass, Obama got a lot of stimulative tax policy extensions by moving on rates.

 

[B-Dubs]

I don't like this deal and we're probably better off if it fails. But here's a possible long game argument: Obama doesn't need to raise taxes on the rich by any specific amount. He just needs to raise their taxes by some amount, while getting some economic protections like UE extension at the same time. Then he can argue that he raised taxes in a recession and the economy got better, so there's no need to worry about raising taxes again.

The thing is changing the way we talk about taxes would be a big long term win. I don't think anyone likes the deal all that much (there is some stuff that isn't too bad, but it mostly sucks) changing our discourse will help in the long run.

 

[slit]

I wonder how Boehner is going to handle this in the House? Is he really going to let it just come up for a vote? He cant rely on his caucus completely so he will essentially be shunning the far right.

 

[el retorno]

Also quoting some Ezra:

That Ezra quote is BS they're gonna cave because republicans will bitch and moan how the dems have givin nothing.

Obama's already given up the CPI and some medicare cuts and possibly raising the age. I haven't even seen the republicans say ANYTHING. They don't have to propose anything but what Obama's already on the record for supporting

The thing is changing the way we talk about taxes would be a big long term win. I don't think anyone likes the deal all that much (there is some stuff that isn't too bad, but it mostly sucks) changing our discourse will help in the long run.

Do you really think this is gonna change how we talk about them. We already have evidence in history that raising taxes doesn't hurt especially when its targets upper incomes. It doesn't matter, facts don't matter.

 

[Black Republican]

John Harwood @JohnJHarwood

Senior GOP aide: Biden-McConnell agree on biggest cliff-talks issue: Clinton-era 39.6% top rate for indiv above $400K, couples above $450K

.

 

[slit]

That Ezra quote is BS they're gonna cave because republicans will bitch and moan how the dems have givin nothing.

Obama's already given up the CPI and some medicare cuts and possibly raising the age. I haven't even seen the republicans say ANYTHING. They don't have to propose anything but what Obama's already on the record for supporting

I doubt this.

 

[kingkitty]

oh fuck this, go over the cliff now please

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

Seriously people, we need to ask ourselves what our objectives are? Are we trying to squeeze the rich to slow down economic inequality? And what for? Is it just to slow down the deficit? To have money for retirement programs years later?

If all you MMT subscribers are correct, then top income tax rates don't really matter. You also say we should not worry about economic conditions 10 years out, but should really focus on the here and now. This deal does that.

 

[worldrunover]

Here's the preliminary details on the deal, with added caveat that it's not speaking about successful passage.

Much better than the one floated on the last page. Interesting how nothing is really getting cut in this proposal; just tax increases. That should be considered a win for Dems, if nothing else.

 

[Synth_floyd]

Seriously why don't the Dems just wait a week until the new congress comes in and then make a deal? Is it really a big deal if taxes go up for 1 week?

 

[el retorno]

I doubt this.

They've floated it. I don't think that will be in any final deal but they'll float it to get some cuts out of the dems in some counter offer. Republicans will never actually stand behind any cuts in entitlements, they'll talk big cuts to freak us and dems out. The dems give them smaller cuts which is has their name on it which is what the republicans wanted in the first place. They've been playing this game since the 80s.

Seriously people, we need to ask ourselves what our objectives are? Are we trying to squeeze the rich to slow down economic inequality? And what for? Is it just to slow down the deficit? To have money for retirement programs years later?

If all you MMT subscribers are correct, then top income tax rates don't really matter. You also say we should not worry about economic conditions 10 years out, but should really focus on the here and now. This deal does that.

Not all of us are MMTers.

This deal doesn't give anything to help the economy it just prevents self-imposed harm. I don't see any new stimulus, infrastructure bank or anything. It gives us nothing but prevents cuts that should never have been proposed anyway.

 

[The Librarian]

Much better than the one floated on the last page. Interesting how nothing is really getting cut in this proposal; just tax increases. That should be considered a win for Dems, if nothing else.

This is an important point. There aren't any spending cuts in the current proposal.

 

[Clevinger]

It takes real talent and effort to make yourself look worse than Boehner in this situation. Congrats, Obama.

I doubt this.

He offered it during the debt ceiling, right? I doubt he'll have a problem offering it up on a platter again, now or in a couple months.

 

[Officerrob]

Much better than the one floated on the last page. Interesting how nothing is really getting cut in this proposal; just tax increases. That should be considered a win for Dems, if nothing else.

There are zero entitlement cuts in that deal

 

[Manmademan]

Seriously why don't the Dems just wait a week until the new congress comes in and then make a deal? Is it really a big deal if taxes go up for 1 week?

the new congress isn't significantly different than the current one. Still a republican controlled house with a slight democratic majority in the senate.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Seriously why don't the Dems just wait a week until the new congress comes in and then make a deal? Is it really a big deal if taxes go up for 1 week?

Fucking seriously. Ugh. We give them leverage thinking they'll use it, but NOPE they still want to play nice.

I want to know the genuine reason why they're afraid to let their balls drop.

 

[B-Dubs]

Seriously why don't the Dems just wait a week until the new congress comes in and then make a deal? Is it really a big deal if taxes go up for 1 week?

I think its more the cuts and a fear that the GOP won't let them completely roll back the cuts on welfare and the like.

 

[RDreamer]

Seriously people, we need to ask ourselves what our objectives are? Are we trying to squeeze the rich to slow down economic inequality? And what for? Is it just to slow down the deficit? To have money for retirement programs years later?

If all you MMT subscribers are correct, then top income tax rates don't really matter. You also say we should not worry about economic conditions 10 years out, but should really focus on the here and now. This deal does that.

Oh come the fuck on. A 4% raise in taxes on every dollar above $250,000 (or wherever it ends up) is absolutely not even in the same ballpark as "squeezing the rich." Not even the same planet. Fuck off with that crap.