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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Yeah, we really dodged a bullet there, good thing we have our corporate masters to set us straight and keep government cronyism out of our great God blessed nation.
While few people here would say that neoliberalism is the way to go, Marxist-Leninist is even worse. Cuba went from being the second biggest economy per capita in South America and the fourth biggest in the Western Hemisphere to being inline with practically third world countries such as the Dominican Republic. Cuba didn't get quite as far off track as Nicaragua did but as it stands it doesn't seem that a non-Castro American puppet regime would have been as bad for the country.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
You know what beat fascism and beat communism? A mixed economy, able to apply the strengths of both centralization and the free market.
 
While few people here would say that neoliberalism is the way to go, Marxist-Leninist is even worse. Cuba went from being the second biggest economy per capita in South America and the fourth biggest in the Western Hemisphere to being inline with practically third world countries such as the Dominican Republic. Cuba didn't get quite as far off track as Nicaragua did but as it stands it doesn't seem that a non-Castro American puppet regime would have been as bad for the country.

And never mind how wealth actually gets distributed.
 

Nert

Member
You know what beat fascism and beat communism? A mixed economy, able to apply the strengths of both centralization and the free market.

Ding ding ding. Internet debates between paradigms like communism and the world of Ayn Rand seem like a frivolous use of time when mixed economies have been so successful throughout history. The interesting and productive debates lie in the degree to which the government should regulate the market, how inequality should be addressed, which sectors of the economy are more prone to market failures than others, etc.
 

KtSlime

Member
While few people here would say that neoliberalism is the way to go, Marxist-Leninist is even worse. Cuba went from being the second biggest economy per capita in South America and the fourth biggest in the Western Hemisphere to being inline with practically third world countries such as the Dominican Republic. Cuba didn't get quite as far off track as Nicaragua did but as it stands it doesn't seem that a non-Castro American puppet regime would have been as bad for the country.

I wonder what people will say when capitalism collapses after expending all of the world's resources.

Anyway, I think Hitokage is right, it's about finding a balance between what should be owned by the people and owned by private entities. Finding a balance between which markets need little regulation and lots of regulation. Communism never got a fair chance and now the term is demonized, and adulterated with all sorts of things that are there for subjugating people rather than raising them up. I just think it is strange to wear a grin over the 'victory' we got.
 
You know what beat fascism and beat communism? A mixed economy, able to apply the strengths of both centralization and the free market.

The problem is that with the exception of China and Venezuela (and MAYBE Norway) they overwhelming favor the free market. Most "mixed economies" are pretty much capitalist systems with a somewhat visible public sector.

And never mind how wealth actually gets distributed.

If the poor are poorer in one country compared to another then who cares? Some African countries have better wealth distribution than America, I wouldn't prefer being poor there compared to here.

I wonder what people will say when capitalism collapses after expending all of the world's resources.

Probably wouldn't look toward Cuba as their system would collapse due to expending all the world's resources.
 

Nert

Member
The problem is that with the exception of China and Venezuela (and MAYBE Norway)they overwhelming favor the free market. Most "mixed economies" are pretty much capitalist systems with a somewhat visible public sector.

A lot of developed nations have government expenditures that exceed 40% of their GDP. There are also many critical sectors under public control in these countries, including education and health care.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
The problem is that with the exception of China and Venezuela (and MAYBE Norway) they overwhelming favor the free market. Most "mixed economies" are pretty much capitalist systems with a somewhat visible public sector.
What people consider "capitalist" today has been DEEPLY skewed by socialist reforms after the industrial revolution. 19th Century capitalism is more true to form.
 
A lot of developed nations have government expenditures that exceed 40% of their GDP. There are also many critical sectors under public control in these countries, including education and health care.

Call me odd but I usually measure how far economically left a nation is by how much of its economy is controlled by the public sector or workers.

What people consider "capitalist" today has been DEEPLY skewed by socialist reforms after the industrial revolution. 19th Century capitalism is more true to form.

Good point. The Cold War effected it as well.
 

KtSlime

Member
Zero shift - I do not advocate any of the implementations of 'communism', I just think it is inappropriate *insert*for people*insert* to demonize it and advocate whatever we got instead - which might be a little better at the moment, but is on its way to having wildly divergent classes of people, one of which is a ruling class. At least we got iPods out of the whole deal.

Edit: I didn't mean for what I had said to be interpreted as if you were demonizing it, sorry if there was a miscommunication on my part.
 
Zero shift - I do not advocate any of the implementations of 'communism', I just think it is inappropriate to demonize it and advocate whatever we got instead - which might be a little better at the moment, but is on its way to having wildly divergent classes of people, one of which is a ruling class. At least we got iPods out of the whole deal.

I never demonized communism but Marxist-Leninsim.

Read the first line of my original post: http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=52412403
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
Just like how Hoover, Nixon, and Reagan pushed Black Americans out of the GOP.
And how the current GOP has pushed out almost all but the oldest generation Cubans. That used to be a slam dunk demographic for them.

Tom Carper (D-DE) and Mark Kirk (R-IL) now both support gay marriage, bringing the total number of senators in support to 50. A DOMA repeal could pass the Senate probably.

We're through the looking glass, people.
Sure, until the inevitable filibuster from the right. Thanks again, Harry Reid!

Guns, gays, and abortion have been causing people to vote against their own interests for quite a while now. But I wonder with the gay issue kinda going away and the gun lobby losing some of its strength, the tide may turn.
Say what? Latest reports show we can't even get universal background checks passed.
 
Furthermore, there are roughly 30k gun deaths and 30k automobile deaths each year, but automobiles are more complicated to use, used far far more often and by far far more people, and there are far more externalities involved with any incident involving automobiles than there are with firearms, so there has to be a higher bar for criminal sanctions.

We do everything we can to ensure cars are safe. We test people, we regulate the design of cars for safety purposes, we require people to wear seat belts, we track ownership of cars and maintenance records, we require insurance, we require licensing to be re-done whenever you move, we test the cars themselves and rate them on safety.

We don't do anything like this for firearms. Nothing. We don't test people. We don't regulate designs to include common sense features like a safety. We don't track ownership. We don't require licensing. We don't require insurance. We don't require extensive review of products before being brought to market.
Yeah, these are really a good set of points. And any time some gun advocate says "We should ban cars . . . " these points should flow.

The car also provides an amazing benefit. People are transported many miles every day. The guns . . . what do they provide us with? Some protection & some hunting fun. That is nothing compared to utility of cars. And as you point out, we massively regulate those cars even though they provide us with a much greater good.
 
Yeah, we really dodged a bullet there, good thing we have our corporate masters to set us straight and keep government cronyism out of our great God blessed nation.

In a way it is pretty funny, people pointing at a system that was broken and manipulated to favor a top class of people while ignoring their own broken system which is manipulated to favor a top class of people. I guess that's ethnocentrism for ya.
Our system certainly has significant flaws. And those flaws are much more apparent now with growth stagnating. But relatively speaking, it delivered the goods despite significant problems. Our rich people were more rich than their rich people and our poor people were more rich than their poor people.

But we have gone too far with our system and we are turning into a banana republic with massive wealth inequalities.
You know what beat fascism and beat communism? A mixed economy, able to apply the strengths of both centralization and the free market.

Indeed. But sadly we have forgotten that and have move to ever more extreme capitalism. And that has certainly made our rich much more rich. But the rest . . . well . . . cue the graphs of stagnant wages.
 

Nert

Member
Something that I didn't see anyone touch on in the car death discussion was the role of city planning. I believe that the dominance of the automobile in terms of city layouts leads to more people driving instead of walking and more people speeding in areas where pedestrians may be at risk. Wider roads, additional lanes, higher speeds, and the artificially created need to drive to get to anything (all components of suburban sprawl) surely increases the probability of car accidents.

While there is room for more comprehensive studies to be done on this, there is already data that suggests that urban areas have fewer automobile accidents per capita than rural areas.

Call me odd but I usually measure how far economically left a nation is by how much of its economy is controlled by the public sector or workers.

Fair enough, I suppose. If that's how you measure the degree of government control in a mixed economy, very few countries would meet that (as you said).
 
Say what? Latest reports show we can't even get universal background checks passed.

It ain't over. Change takes time. New York, Colorado, and soon Connecticut are passing significant changes. Yes, those are all relatively blow (not Colorado) but there is a basic mind-set change wherein the NRA is no longer viewed as the ultra-powerful and no one even bothered to push back.

Little to nothing may happen on the Federal level depending on the House, but momentum has shifted. Even if nothing changes Federally, the issue will be used in subsequent elections. I think the "90% of people support universal background-checks buy Mr.XXX voted against the will of the people" can be used in future elections.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
It ain't over. Change takes time. New York, Colorado, and soon Connecticut are passing significant changes. Yes, those are all relatively blow (not Colorado) but there is a basic mind-set change wherein the NRA is no longer viewed as the ultra-powerful and no one even bothered to push back.

Little to nothing may happen on the Federal level depending on the House, but momentum has shifted. Even if nothing changes Federally, the issue will be used in subsequent elections. I think the "90% of people support universal background-checks buy Mr.XXX voted against the will of the people" can be used in future elections.

The courts have been moving backwards on the view of gun control, though.

No federal appellate court had adopted an "individual right" interpretation of the second Amendment until the 2003 case of U.S. v. Emerson.
 
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/megyn-ke...id-this-guy-just-climb-out-of-a-time-capsule/

Conservatives are mad that Obama's Pastor said true things.

“It drives me crazy when the captains of the religious right are always calling us back . . . for blacks to be back in the back of the bus . . . for women to be back in the kitchen . . . for immigrants to be back on their side of the border.”

“I hear all the time the expression ‘the good old days.’ Well, the good old days, we forget they have been good for some, but they weren’t good for everybody.”

I can't help but laugh at this
Perkins noted that Leon’s “loaded language” wrongly portrayed gay marriage opponents as equal to those who wished to see ‘blacks on the back of the bus.’



Also the right can't keep their mouth shut in response to MSNBC giving Karen Finney a show while mentioning she's african american

‏@TimJGraham
MSNBC touting Karen Finney as another African-American host. Would the average viewer be able to guess that? Or is Boehner a shade more tan?
 
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When the dominoes fell, they fucking FELL.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I think it's pretty clear that was all planned - a trial balloon, if you will.

Obama didn't suddenly decide to announce his support for gay marriage because Biden ran his mouth off.

Still, Biden is awesome and played a pretty important role in making it all happen.

Well I don't know how 'clear' it is, I certainly have only heard theories about it and no hard facts, but that's one "conspiracy" i would believe. It makes sense as political theater. The reason I doubt is that the response to Biden that week was seriously mixed down the line with many commentators hugely doubting whether or not that was a good thing or not. Politically, one might have concluded it would be a bad thing to come out behind that, but Obama did it with such speed after Joe Biden said what he said that he obviously didn't have much time to consider the political realities of the choice yet.

Still, as you said, either way Biden is important and for that alone goes down in History. But Biden has proved he is a stellar politician this past term, so I want to vote for him.

Erick Erickson: "May 2012 is the moment Obama lost the election! Well actually it was August 2008 when he picked Biden, we all knew he was a loose cannon!"

God I would have paid money to have seen a recorded video of that authors reaction on election day

True fact: some days when I'm bored I go back and watch reactions from prominent Republicans on youtube about election day. It gives me my jollies and I often masturbate to their tears ;)
 
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/...d-senate-republican-to-back-same-sex-marriage

Illinois Sen. Mark Kirk on Tuesday became the second Senate Republican to support marriage rights for same-sex couples, saying that "government has no place" in blocking loving marriages.

...

"Same-sex couples should have the right to civil marriage. Our time on this earth is limited, I know that better than most," Kirk added. "Life comes down to who you love and who loves you back-- government has no place in the middle."

We do this one yet?
 
God I would have paid money to have seen a recorded video of that authors reaction on election day

True fact: some days when I'm bored I go back and watch reactions from prominent Republicans on youtube about election day. It gives me my jollies and I often masturbate to their tears ;)
Conservative tears make for a great natural lubricant.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
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When the dominoes fell, they fucking FELL.

I'd like to see this with an arrow noting when Obama came out and endorsed mariange equality. I think it's right when the chart goes vertical at the end of 2012.

We had a lot of discussion at the time about whether Obama's "evolution" would matter. And his shift came right as public sentiment crossed over to majority support, so it's impossible to separate the impact of the two. But I think Obama taking the lead on it - during the election no less - did have an effect to speed up the dominos falling. That led to marriage equality being part of the party platform at the convention, and it picked up from there.
 
If a Republican were to win the White House in 2016, would that Republican need 60 votes to get anything through the Senate?

Is super-majority now enshrined as a requirement to get anything of substance passed the US legislature or does it only apply when Democrats are in the White House?
 
I'd like to see this with an arrow noting when Obama came out and endorsed mariange equality. I think it's right when the chart goes vertical at the end of 2012.

We had a lot of discussion at the time about whether Obama's "evolution" would matter. And his shift came right as public sentiment crossed over to majority support, so it's impossible to separate the impact of the two. But I think Obama taking the lead on it - during the election no less - did have an effect to speed up the dominos falling. That led to marriage equality being part of the party platform at the convention, and it picked up from there.

I think Silver pointed out that the overall support for gay marriage hasn't been a recent thing, but a constant climb.

But what did change recently has been prominent politicians supporting gay marriage and I do think Obama's endorsement and zero blowback from it has been huge.
 
If a Republican were to win the White House in 2016, would that Republican need 60 votes to get anything through the Senate?

Is super-majority now enshrined as a requirement to get anything of substance passed the US legislature or does it only apply when Democrats are in the White House?
Well, the number of filibusters did increase while Bush was in office and Republicans controlled the Senate, so it seems pretty par for the course. Most of Bush's big ticket items got through via reconciliation or passed with more than 60 votes. Immigration reform died because of the filibuster I believe.
 
Sorry, I can't believe I said that. How could I be so racist? I'm going to try and unconditionally love him regardless of the crap he says. I can be better than this!

What do you expect would happen if in 2016 the GOP had the Senate, House, and won the Presidency? Would the Dems unify and try to scuttle any and everything that the GOP did if it came to gutting social services, privatizing medicare, doing a Ryan type of budget, etc? Or would they role over and lay on their backs?
 

Amir0x

Banned
Conservative tears make for a great natural lubricant.

lol perfect follow up

I don't mean to take such pleasure in it, but after the bullshit that was being tossed again about Obama and his policies, it's hard not to. I mean I disagree with so much Obama has done, and yet I seem to be endlessly tossed into just going into auto defense mode just because the other side is SO outrageous.
 
lol perfect follow up

I don't mean to take such pleasure in it, but after the bullshit that was being tossed again about Obama and his policies, it's hard not to. I mean I disagree with so much Obama has done, and yet I seem to be endlessly tossed into just going into auto defense mode just because the other side is SO outrageous.
Of course. After 2004 Republicans were bullshitting left and right about their permanent moral majority (after winning a much closer election than Obama has ever faced). Then after 2010 it was a foregone conclusion that Obama was going to lose miserably and the Democrats would lose the Senate, supported by Gallup and Rasmussen pushing blatantly rigged polls that had Romney winning by comically large margins - "Our likely voter screen turns this from a tied race to a comfortable Romney lead!" Yeah and then Obama won by 4, gold standard of polling my ass.

The GOP is a party of cynicism and the media pushes the dark side of every story. So yeah, it's great to see the good guys win one, we just need to make a habit of it.

Speaking of good guys winning, Mark Sanford won the GOP primary for the South Carolina seat, meaning Elizabeth Colbert-Busch will probably be the next Congresswoman, which would bring the Dem caucus to 202. All in preparation for the House takeover in 2014 of course.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I think Silver pointed out that the overall support for gay marriage hasn't been a recent thing, but a constant climb.

But what did change recently has been prominent politicians supporting gay marriage and I do think Obama's endorsement and zero blowback from it has been huge.

Right, support has been growing steadily. But it crossed over to majority support very recently, just in the last year or two.
 
Was this posted? Kansas Senate passes anti-abortion bill defining life as beginning at fertilization

TOPEKA — A bill defining human life as beginning at fertilization and outlawing any direct or indirect state support for abortions cruised to Senate approval Monday.

But not before outnumbered Democrats forced Republicans into politically risky roll-call votes over birth control and whether to exempt victims of rape and incest from state abortion restrictions.

The Senate moved the bill forward with only one minor technical amendment. A final recorded vote is expected Tuesday.

Senate support virtually guarantees that House Bill 2253 will become state law.

The bill has already passed the House of Representatives and Gov. Sam Brownback has pledged to sign any anti-abortion legislation that the Legislature sends him.

The bill at hand, House Bill 2253, makes several changes in state abortion and tax laws, including defining life as beginning at the moment of fertilization and eliminating damage to a woman’s mental health as justification for mid- to late-term abortions.

In addition, the bill:

• Prohibits paid agents or volunteers connected to abortion providers – including Planned Parenthood – from providing any information on human sexuality to students in public schools.

• Requires clinics that perform abortions to provide women with detailed information on gestational development.

• Requires abortion providers to provide patients with a directory of anti-abortion alternative programs.


Supporters say the primary focus of the bill is to prevent abortion opponents from having to provide even the most indirect support of abortion through their taxes.

It would restrict women from claiming any medical or insurance costs related to abortion services as a deduction on state income taxes. It also prohibits any state funding, tax credits or other benefits from going to any medical practice or facility that allows abortions to be performed.

Democrats’ amendments led to an unusually heated floor debate.

Sen. David Haley, D-Kansas City, accused conservative Republicans of pushing “narrow Taliban-like philosophies on our state’s persons.”

Haley, a former Republican, said the party’s focus on interfering in people’s private lives were a big reason he switched parties.

“I was a Bob Dole Republican,” he said. “Some of you all might remember him; most of you don’t.”

Sen. Mary Pilcher-Cook, R-Shawnee, who carried the bill on the floor, accused Haley of misrepresenting the intent of the 72-page bill.

“It has to do with giving parents confidence that their children will not be exposed to abortion policy in sex-education classes and eliminates any taxpayer funding for abortions so that taxpayers do not feel their money is going to provide for abortions,” Pilcher-Cook said.

Haley proposed an amendment that would have clarified that defining life as beginning at fertilization would not ban forms of birth control that work by interfering with uterine implantation of a fertilized egg, such as the IUD and morning-after pill.

“The majority of the public, I believe, don’t want to see birth control outlawed,” Haley said.

That drew an angry retort from Pilcher-Cook, who called Haley’s amendment “political high jinks.”

“This is just ridiculous,” she said. “We should be focused on the bill instead of trying to make political points with amendments.”

She said the right to birth control is protected by other state laws, but Haley persisted that if state policy is that life begins at fertilization, some would interpret that to equate birth control with abortion.

Haley’s amendment failed,
but did put 27 Republican senators on the record with a vote that could be used later to try to paint them as being anti-birth control. Only the eight Democrats voted for the amendment and five moderate Republicans took a pass.

The same forces clashed over a Haley amendment to provide women and girls who became pregnant through rape, incest or aggravated indecency an exemption from the state’s regimen of strict anti-abortion laws.

Haley said the definition of parenthood in the bill could convey to rapists and other abusers the ability to stop a woman’s decision to abort a pregnancy resulting from a sex crime.

Pilcher-Cook said she found it offensive to imply that she was trying to protect rapists and molesters.

That amendment failed 28-9, but got one Republican vote, from Sen. Vicki Schmidt, a Topeka moderate.

Another fought-over provision establishes a statutory mandate that abortion doctors must provide controversial medical information to women who are seeking an abortion, specifically of a link between abortion and breast cancer.

The National Cancer Institute has characterized that as a “false alarm,” saying: “At this time, the scientific evidence does not support the notion that abortion of any kind raises the risk of breast cancer or any other type of cancer.”

But Pilcher-Cook argued that scientific studies vary and that the information is already provided to women under state health regulations.

The bill would put that requirement in state law, she said.

Sen. Pat Pettey, D-Kansas City, attempted an amendment to remove the language from the bill, saying it was misinforming women.

Pettey’s amendment failed on a vote of 28-10. Two Republicans voted with the Democrats, Schmidt and Kay Wolf, R-Prairie Village.

Maybe this is what the Kansas piece was about?
 
So there are two states I don't understand why any women live in. How can you live in a state that doesn't give you autonomy over your own body?
 

Wow. "What's the matter with Kansas?" Indeed!

The same forces clashed over a Haley amendment to provide women and girls who became pregnant through rape, incest or aggravated indecency an exemption from the state’s regimen of strict anti-abortion laws.

Haley said the definition of parenthood in the bill could convey to rapists and other abusers the ability to stop a woman’s decision to abort a pregnancy resulting from a sex crime.

Pilcher-Cook said she found it offensive to imply that she was trying to protect rapists and molesters.

That amendment failed 28-9, but got one Republican vote, from Sen. Vicki Schmidt, a Topeka moderate.
But you are helping out rapists. Now they can rape women and if they manage to plant their seed, the government guarantees that they will get a son/daughter out of that rape.



I still think this may be part of a 'last hurrah'. They can see that their grip on the Supreme Court is fading and they want to take a last hack at Roe. v. Wade.
 
Not sure if this was posted but O'Reilly and conservative radio host Laura Ingram were arguing over Bill's comments that the only argument that anti-gay marriage people have is to thump the bible:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...raham-argument-thump-the-bible_n_3002860.html

It's funny how Ingram is basically saying "Ixnay on the criticising my listeners, Bill. If I insult them like that (with a rational argument) they stop listening and I'm out of a job." She didn't directly say that but Bill, who I guess is like a broken clock, did manage to hit on an inconvenient truth with Ingram and anti-gay marriage people.
 
I still think this may be part of a 'last hurrah'. They can see that their grip on the Supreme Court is fading and they want to take a last hack at Roe. v. Wade.

Yup. Even if people aren't changing their views on Abortion (though the poorer and less white youth seem to be more supportive of choice), laws like these aren't popular.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Also, those "constitutional conservatives?"

Doesn't apply to the 17th amendment, at least in Tenn.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/dail...ad-plan-to-change-its-primary-system-20130401

Actually, the 17th Amendment isn't implicated; the residents of TN would still elect their Senators. I actually like the idea of U.S. senators appointed by state legislatures, since that system strengthened state checks on federal power (a part of the system of checks-and-balances we don't hear about very often), but this is obviously not that.
 
The gop and the Taliban really are the same.

They are. They represent the same interests within their respective societies.

Actually, the 17th Amendment isn't implicated; the residents of TN would still elect their Senators. I actually like the idea of U.S. senators appointed by state legislatures, since that system strengthened state checks on federal power (a part of the system of checks-and-balances we don't hear about very often), but this is obviously not that.

Why would you want to check federal power? We are having significant social problems right now because the federal government is not powerful enough.
 
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