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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Most of my Facebook is virtual candles, black ribbons, etc., but one old friend liked this picture from some Tea Party-ish page:

dr1cXSP.jpg

I guess she's my first crazy friend. Sad. And as you can guess, all the people who liked that page, hate Cynthia McKinney.
 
Is the story about there being a bomb squad test today true? I saw it earlier today but didn't recognize the source. Either way it's clear that the conspiracy folks were ready to pounce.

I find its best to just ignore it; I still haven't watched any videos or read articles about the Sandy Hook truther movement. We're so connected now that anything can be shared with anyone, with little to no journalistic standards or accuracy. Today there were tons of contradicting claims about injuries and deaths. Any sane person would recognize that as news outlets reporting inaccurate estimate numbers in order to be "breaking news." To a conspiracy nut it suggests a cover up or inside job. And thanks to twitter and social media it's easy for them to spread their nonsense quickly, exposing people to FUD they would never have come across 20 years ago.
 

Jooney

Member
Peddling conspiracies is a business. See Alex Jones's tweets about this being a false flag operation, and then not long after, imploring people to tune into his show.
 
Most of my Facebook is virtual candles, black ribbons, etc., but one old friend liked this picture from some Tea Party-ish page:



I guess she's my first crazy friend. Sad. And as you can guess, all the people who liked that page, hate Cynthia McKinney.

Zero tolerance for that shit. Unfriend them and let them know why.
 
This attitude I don't think is helpful, ANYTHING is better than nothing. This bill will probably at least save one persons life I'd imagine. Thats worth it.

Its disappointing but giving up is what the right wants. People that would like stricter gun laws need to realize this country doesn't work like that, change doesn't happen overnight. But on the state and local level things are changing, we push for candidates with better views, as time goes on the more outreach that is done to remind the public the NRA is blocking common sense reform will pay off in the future. This isn't an issue that is just fixed with one piece of legislation. The NRA has been steadily weakening laws for a long time, decades. Slowly but surely. We need to do the same. Any restriction keeping even one gun out of the hands of a criminal is a success.

Freaking CHILDREN were massacred and you still have people clinging to guns like borderline psychopaths using circular reasoning and asinine logic to keep guns laws the way they are.

Not even a single moment of self reflection of "Hmm...maybe we SHOULD do something even I do support the Second Amendment in full"

Not even that!

Even when presented with irrefutable facts, and this seems to be a trend with the right-wing in general, they still refuse to wake the fuck up the reality of our gun violence.
 
Freaking CHILDREN were massacred and you still have people clinging to guns like borderline psychopaths using circular reasoning and asinine logic to keep guns laws the way they are.

Not even a single moment of self reflection of "Hmm...maybe we SHOULD do something even I do support the Second Amendment in full"

Not even that!

I understand the anger but this isn't new behavior.
 
Gosnell is clearly a case of too much gov't regulation. If only the gov't would get out of the way of businesses and allow them to flourish via the free market, things like this wouldn't happen.
 
Most of my Facebook is virtual candles, black ribbons, etc., but one old friend liked this picture from some Tea Party-ish page:



I guess she's my first crazy friend. Sad. And as you can guess, all the people who liked that page, hate Cynthia McKinney.

Cynthia McKinney is a whack job. Glad she is gone.
 

codhand

Member
I saw a Drudge Report link that said Obama's Economy to Bottom Out Before Term Ends with a picture of Alan Greenspan. When I clicked on it, it linked to a Peter Schiff article. It was like an economic Rick Roll.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
The NYT article today on the immigration plan makes it seem weak. The penalty is so severe that it is a bit self defeating...
 

xnipx

Member
I remember when I made a post saying the tax preparation business should be nationalized and more automated to save money I was crucified. I don't understand the logic that a billion dollar business needs to survive just because that's how it's always been. Easier tax filing with less fraud should always be the goal.

Oh yeah you guys, just saw this.. http://www.nationalmemo.com/republicans-and-dems-come-together-to-keep-irs-from-competing-with-turbotax/

Business interest has an incredible stronghold on government, its fucking sad man.
 
The NYT article today on the immigration plan makes it seem weak. The penalty is so severe that it is a bit self defeating...
I've read the summary to see how the bill could benefit my girlfriend, who is here on a student visa and already has an MBA from an American university. The merit system sounds decent, but merit-based visas won't even begin to be issued until 2018. Not sure how positively it speaks for the proposed bill when the best chance of her getting a green card is still marriage (which is a definite possibility, but hey).

Any suggestions from anyone on other avenues based on the points below from the summary?

On the employment green card categories, the bill exempts the following categories from the annual numerical limits on employment-based immigrants: derivative beneficiaries of employment-based immigrants; aliens of extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business or athletics; outstanding professors and researchers; multinational executives and managers; doctoral degree holders in STEM field; and physicians who have completed the foreign residency requirements or have received a waiver.

The bill then allocates 40 percent of the worldwide level of employment-based visas to : 1)members of the professions holding advanced degrees or their equivalent whose services are sought in the sciences, arts, professions, or business by an employer in the United States (including certain aliens with foreign medical degrees) and 2) aliens who have earned a master’s degree or higher in a field of science, technology, engineering or mathematics from an accredited U.S. institution of higher education and have an offer of employment in a related field and the qualifying degree was earned in the five years immediately before the petition was filed.

The bill increases the percentage of employment visas for skilled workers, professionals, and other professionals to 40 percent, maintains the percentage of employment visas for certain special immigrants to 10 percent and maintains visas for those who foster employment creation to 10 percent.
 

Chichikov

Member
I remember when I made a post saying the tax preparation business should be nationalized and more automated to save money I was crucified. I don't understand the logic that a billion dollar business needs to survive just because that's how it's always been. Easier tax filing with less fraud should always be the goal.
We shouldn't nationalize it, the government should just tell you how much money you owe.
I see no reason to prevent people from filing their own taxes if they so choose (or if they just think the IRS is wrong), but I can't imagine most Americans would need to want to do that.

There will still be room for specialized tax experts, though ideally you want a system so simple that you just don't need them (obviously that's an aspirational goal), to put it in terms that free market people love (and I kinda hate) when you reward the company who is best in tax preparation, you create a market distortion, or in the language of actual human beings - you want companies to compete on making the best product, have the best service and offer it in a great price, not on finding the best tax lawyers.
 

pigeon

Banned
So this is a little interesting.

nextnewdeal said:
n 2010, economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff released a paper, "Growth in a Time of Debt." Their "main result is that...median growth rates for countries with public debt over 90 percent of GDP are roughly one percent lower than otherwise; average (mean) growth rates are several percent lower." Countries with debt-to-GDP ratios above 90 percent have a slightly negative average growth rate, in fact.

This has been one of the most cited stats in the public debate during the Great Recession. Paul Ryan's Path to Prosperity budget states their study "found conclusive empirical evidence that [debt] exceeding 90 percent of the economy has a significant negative effect on economic growth."..."

Is it conclusive? One response has been to argue that the causation is backwards, or that slower growth leads to higher debt-to-GDP ratios. Josh Bivens and John Irons made this case at the Economic Policy Institute. But this assumes that the data is correct. From the beginning there have been complaints that Reinhart and Rogoff weren't releasing the data for their results (e.g. Dean Baker). I knew of several people trying to replicate the results who were bumping into walls left and right - it couldn't be done.

In a new paper, "Does High Public Debt Consistently Stifle Economic Growth? A Critique of Reinhart and Rogoff," Thomas Herndon, Michael Ash, and Robert Pollin of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst successfully replicate the results. After trying to replicate the Reinhart-Rogoff results and failing, they reached out to Reinhart and Rogoff and they were willing to share their data spreadhseet. This allowed Herndon et al. to see how how Reinhart and Rogoff's data was constructed.

They find that three main issues stand out. First, Reinhart and Rogoff selectively exclude years of high debt and average growth. Second, they use a debatable method to weight the countries. Third, there also appears to be a coding error that excludes high-debt and average-growth countries. All three bias in favor of their result, and without them you don't get their controversial result. Let's investigate further:

Selective Exclusions. Reinhart-Rogoff use 1946-2009 as their period, with the main difference among countries being their starting year. In their data set, there are 110 years of data available for countries that have a debt/GDP over 90 percent, but they only use 96 of those years. The paper didn't disclose which years they excluded or why.

Herndon-Ash-Pollin find that they exclude Australia (1946-1950), New Zealand (1946-1949), and Canada (1946-1950). This has consequences, as these countries have high-debt and solid growth....

Unconventional Weighting. Reinhart-Rogoff divides country years into debt-to-GDP buckets. They then take the average real growth for each country within the buckets. So the growth rate of the 19 years that England is above 90 percent debt-to-GDP are averaged into one number. These country numbers are then averaged, equally by country, to calculate the average real GDP growth weight.

In case that didn't make sense let's look at an example. England has 19 years (1946-1964) above 90 percent debt-to-GDP with an average 2.4 percent growth rate. New Zealand has one year in their sample above 90 percent debt-to-GDP with a growth rate of -7.6. These two numbers, 2.4 and -7.6 percent, are given equal weight in the final calculation, as they average the countries equally. Even though there are 19 times as many data points for England.

Now maybe you don't want to give equal weighting to years (technical aside: Herndon-Ash-Pollin bring up serial correlation as a possibility). Perhaps you want to take episodes. But this weighting significantly reduces the average; if you weight by the number of years you find a higher growth rate above 90 percent. Reinhart-Rogoff don't discuss this methodology, either the fact that they are weighing this way or the justification for it, in their paper.

Coding Error. As Herndon-Ash-Pollin puts it: "A coding error in the RR working spreadsheet entirely excludes five countries, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, and Denmark, from the analysis. [Reinhart-Rogoff] averaged cells in lines 30 to 44 instead of lines 30 to 49...This spreadsheet error...is responsible for a -0.3 percentage-point error in RR's published average real GDP growth in the highest public debt/GDP category."

This error is needed to get the results they published, and it would go a long way to explaining why it has been impossible for others to replicate these results. If this error turns out to be an actual mistake Reinhart-Rogoff made, well, all I can hope is that future historians note that one of the core empirical points providing the intellectual foundation for the global move to austerity in the early 2010s was based on someone accidentally not updating a row formula in Excel.

So what do Herndon-Ash-Pollin conclude? They find "the average real GDP growth rate for countries carrying a public debt-to-GDP ratio of over 90 percent is actually 2.2 percent, not -0.1 percent as [Reinhart-Rogoff claim]." Going further into the data, they are unable to find a breakpoint where growth falls quickly and significantly.

http://www.nextnewdeal.net/research...rt-rogoff-and-there-are-some-serious-problems

I might actually start a thread about this, since it's really amazing to me.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
If this was actually Obama's plan, and it works, I'll be impressed.

Oh course it was his plan. Do liberals think Obama is really just this stupid to offer up Chained CPI and get nothing in return? Or that he didn't know the GOP really didn't want it as much as they said?
 

Angry Fork

Member
Oh course it was his plan. Do liberals think Obama is really just this stupid to offer up Chained CPI and get nothing in return? Or that he didn't know the GOP really didn't want it as much as they said?

Well he does think committing terrorism against civilian populations will somehow decrease terrorism and resentment against the US, that's both stupid and immoral. What's to say he isn't as extreme on logic towards domestic policies?
 
So this is a little interesting.



http://www.nextnewdeal.net/research...rt-rogoff-and-there-are-some-serious-problems

I might actually start a thread about this, since it's really amazing to me.

That doesn't surprise me at all. Reinhart's and Rogoff's conclusions made no theoretical sense at all. Debt to GDP ratio for a country with a modern fiat monetary system has no external meaning, i.e., it doesn't itself convey any information about the real world. So to find a correlation there did not make any sense from the start. It could only do so if money were not an entirely abstract social concept. And since fiat money indisputably is that, it was incoherent.
 

Gotchaye

Member
I'm enjoying watching the price of gold crash even more than I enjoyed bitcoin's troubles. I'm torn between sympathy and schadenfreude for a doom-saying friend of mine who bought in about a month ago. Schadenfreude's winning, and there will be taunting later.
 

Chichikov

Member
So this is a little interesting.



http://www.nextnewdeal.net/research...rt-rogoff-and-there-are-some-serious-problems

I might actually start a thread about this, since it's really amazing to me.
I think you left the most damning part unbloded -
Unconventional Weighting. Reinhart-Rogoff divides country years into debt-to-GDP buckets. They then take the average real growth for each country within the buckets. So the growth rate of the 19 years that England is above 90 percent debt-to-GDP are averaged into one number. These country numbers are then averaged, equally by country, to calculate the average real GDP growth weight.

In case that didn't make sense let's look at an example. England has 19 years (1946-1964) above 90 percent debt-to-GDP with an average 2.4 percent growth rate. New Zealand has one year in their sample above 90 percent debt-to-GDP with a growth rate of -7.6. These two numbers, 2.4 and -7.6 percent, are given equal weight in the final calculation, as they average the countries equally. Even though there are 19 times as many data points for England.

Now maybe you don't want to give equal weighting to years (technical aside: Herndon-Ash-Pollin bring up serial correlation as a possibility). Perhaps you want to take episodes. But this weighting significantly reduces the average; if you weight by the number of years you find a higher growth rate above 90 percent. Reinhart-Rogoff don't discuss this methodology, either the fact that they are weighing this way or the justification for it, in their paper.
You can sort of explain the other shit - missing data, human error, laziness, but this?
This is more difficult and significantly less "accurate"* than traditional methods, the only reason I could think someone would do that is to get to a preordained destination.

But that's why you always want to fuck your math, it's boring and people wouldn't care.
Well, most people, I'm a math major and I say kill 'em all (economists that is).

* I'm putting 'accurate' in scare quote because it's not really a question of accuracy, things like 'average' and 'median' are merely a definitions, the issue here is the relation this number has with the real world.
 

pigeon

Banned
I'm enjoying watching the price of gold crash even more than I enjoyed bitcoin's troubles. I'm torn between sympathy and schadenfreude for a doom-saying friend of mine who bought in about a month ago. Schadenfreude's winning, and there will be taunting later.

I kind of want to ask my insane grandfather if he got out in time, but I'm guessing he didn't. There goes that inheritance!
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
Well he does think committing terrorism against civilian populations will somehow decrease terrorism and resentment against the US, that's both stupid and immoral. What's to say he isn't as extreme on logic towards domestic policies?
Yeah, because that's exactly what he's doing.

You're as one-note as possible with this drone shit. Are you going to run to it for every decision Obama makes? You might as well start screaming out "Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi!"
 
I'm enjoying watching the price of gold crash even more than I enjoyed bitcoin's troubles. I'm torn between sympathy and schadenfreude for a doom-saying friend of mine who bought in about a month ago. Schadenfreude's winning, and there will be taunting later.

The Gold Collapse Is Personally Costing Ron Paul A Fortune

Of course he made a fortune and still has a fortune from investing in gold.




The whole gold thing is weird to me. The price became completely detached from industrial uses and the industrial use people have been doing all sorts of things to no longer need it. So it is a precious metal who's price is solely determined by the number of people with hyper-inflation fears, doomsday preppers, Ron Paul fans, Glenn Beckerheads, inflation hedgers, etc. How do you measure that?

It has a circular logic to it . . . gold is valuable because gold has always been valuable. I'm not mocking that because it does work . . it is not going to crash down real low ever. But it does allow for speculative frothy bubbles to form.
 
The whole gold thing is weird to me. The price became completely detached from industrial uses and the industrial use people have been doing all sorts of things to no longer need it. So it is a precious metal who's price is solely determined by the number of people with hyper-inflation fears, doomsday preppers, Ron Paul fans, Glenn Beckerheads, inflation hedgers, etc. How do you measure that?

The same way you measure the bitcoin market.

It has a circular logic to it . . . gold is valuable because gold has always been valuable. I'm not mocking that because it does work . . it is not going to crash down real low ever. But it does allow for speculative frothy bubbles to form.

It's psychological. Gold's psychological connection with "money" will, at least for the foreseeable future, cause it to rise and fall inversely with confidence in economic and physical security.
 

Angry Fork

Member
Yeah, because that's exactly what he's doing.

You're as one-note as possible with this drone shit. Are you going to run to it for every decision Obama makes? You might as well start screaming out "Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi!"

Should I say nothing about it because it annoys liberals? Because he holds the death defying, vastly unpopular, politically frightening opinion that gays should be able to get married? Obama has yet to go against the grain, on his own, for any decent common sense moral principle, it must be supported by 60%+ of the population first, and even then he's wishy washy.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
It is a logical impossibility for Social Security to go bankrupt. We can voluntarily choose to suspend or eliminate the program, but it could never fail because it “ran out of money.” This belief is the result of a common error: conceptualizing Social Security from the micro (individual) rather than the macro (economy-wide) perspective. It’s not a pension fund into which you put your money when you are young and from which you draw when you are old. It’s an immediate transfer from workers today to retirees today. That’s what it has always been and that’s what it has to be–there is no other possible way for it to work.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2013/01/07/social-security-rerun/

This article has the best explanation for how SS works I've seen so far. Read the whole thing. Why the hell can't Obama and the Democrats explain this in such a way?
 
Cynthia McKinney is a whack job. Glad she is gone.

Of course she is, and I am, too. Would you macro & quote her, even if she says something you agree with? I actually find it discomfiting when people I vehemently disagree with suddenly say something I find reasonable. Otherwise, we're in "Mussolini made the trains run on time" territory.
 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2013/01/07/social-security-rerun/

This article has the best explanation for how SS works I've seen so far. Read the whole thing. Why the hell can't Obama and the Democrats explain this in such a way?

That's true. Basically, social security is a program that takes a chunk of the year's production of real goods and services, and transfers them to the retired. Keeping the level of benefits the same will require accommodation of a baby boom generation retirement, i.e., a slightly bigger chunk of GDP will have to be carved out for a couple of decades to provide for the larger "class" of retirees:

Social Security benefits now amount to 4.9 percent of GDP in 2012. By 2035, when the youngest baby boomers will have turned age 70, Social Security benefits in current law are projected to be 6.4 percent of GDP. That is an increase of 1.5 percentage points over what we are paying today in taxes.

How does that 1.5 percentage point increase compare with past changes in national spending when the baby boomers were children? Public spending for education grew about twice as much as the projected increase in Social Security. Public education spending – by local, state and federal governments – grew from 2.3 percent of GDP in 1950, just before boomers began to enter kindergarten, to 5.2 percent of GDP by 1975. This was an increase of 2.9 percentage points.

http://www.nasi.org/learn/socialsecurity/economy-share

We are clearly wealthy enough as a society to provide for the retirement of the baby boom generation at the current level of benefits. The way that the government provides the transfer to the retired is simply by cutting them a check in US dollars. They then acquire their "cut" of GDP by spending that money in the real economy. The US government is never constrained by the amount of US dollars it spends, so providing this money to retirees is not a problem. The only problem is the laws that artificially constrain the program's accounting. So we don't have a social security problem at all, we have a small legal accounting problem. It can be fixed by passing legislation directing the Treasury to cut checks to retirees out of the general revenue fund (or otherwise directing the Treasury to cut checks to the SSA "trust fund")!
 
I wonder how long it will be until a nation moves into an MMT or likewise model in which it completely ignores the concept of public debt and only focus on inflation/deflation and foreign debt instead.
 
Representative Steve King of Iowa, a prominent House conservative, says Congress should be cautious about rushing immigration reform, especially after Monday’s bombing in Boston, where three people were killed.

“Some of the speculation that has come out is that yes, it was a foreign national and, speculating here, that it was potentially a person on a student visa,” King says. “If that’s the case, then we need to take a look at the big picture.”

On immigration, King says national security should be the focus now, and any talk about a path to legalization should be put on hold. “We need to be ever vigilant,” he says. “We need to go far deeper into our border crossings. . . .We need to take a look at the visa-waiver program and wonder what we’re doing. If we can’t background check people that are coming from Saudi Arabia, how do we think we are going to background check the 11 to 20 million people that are here from who knows where.”

Talk about linking unrelated things.

Going full retard once again.
 
I wonder how long it will be until a nation moves into an MMT or likewise model in which it completely ignores the concept of public debt and only focus on inflation/deflation and foreign debt instead.

It will be when enough people realize that public debt issuance is just a spending program that provides safe, risk-free investments for the public and that such a spending program is in no way necessary for a sovereign government to spend its own currency, even when it wants to spend more than it collects in taxes. It'd be nice to have a bumper-sticker slogan for this, but that'd be one hell of a boring bumper sticker.

Government spending = financial asset (money) creation
Government taxing = financial asset (money) destruction
Yearly deficit/surplus = change in net financial assets held by the non-government sector (flow)
Debt = accumulated financial assets held by the non-government sector over time (stock) (at least so long as debt issuance is arbitrarily tied to deficit spending, which it need not and should not be)

That's all anybody needs to know!
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
We shouldn't nationalize it, the government should just tell you how much money you owe.
I see no reason to prevent people from filing their own taxes if they so choose (or if they just think the IRS is wrong), but I can't .

But how will the government logistically do taxes for 150 million people?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That's true. Basically, social security is a program that takes a chunk of the year's production of real goods and services, and transfers them to the retired. Keeping the level of benefits the same will require accommodation of a baby boom generation retirement, i.e., a slightly bigger chunk of GDP will have to be carved out for a couple of decades to provide for the larger "class" of retirees:



http://www.nasi.org/learn/socialsecurity/economy-share

We are clearly wealthy enough as a society to provide for the retirement of the baby boom generation at the current level of benefits. The way that the government provides the transfer to the retired is simply by cutting them a check in US dollars. They then acquire their "cut" of GDP by spending that money in the real economy. The US government is never constrained by the amount of US dollars it spends, so providing this money to retirees is not a problem. The only problem is the laws that artificially constrain the program's accounting. So we don't have a social security problem at all, we have a small legal accounting problem. It can be fixed by passing legislation directing the Treasury to cut checks to retirees out of the general revenue fund (or otherwise directing the Treasury to cut checks to the SSA "trust fund")!

Wow, great way to explain that in easy to understand language. So it looks like your saying to keeps the benefits the same, some group(s) of people will have to pay a slight higher amount in taxes or just ask the FED to create "x" of more dollars to cover the baby boomer SS cost.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Talk about linking unrelated things.

Going full retard once again.

Amazing. A single isolated bombing incident prompts immediate talk of "background checks" on groups not even confirmed involved. Yet background checks on gun sales to try to curb the hundreds(?) injured and dying every day from gun violence is unreasonable.
 

Chichikov

Member
But how will the government logistically do taxes for 150 million people?
You need to mandate some employer reporting (you can opt out and do your taxes yourself if you're concerned about privacy) and maybe simplify the tax code a bit (though to be honest, I'm not even sure about that - taxes are pretty simple for the majority of people, most Americans don't use itemized deduction).

I wouldn't know how to do this for self employed people, but I think that issue can wait.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You need to mandate some employer reporting (you can opt out and do your taxes yourself if you're concerned about privacy) and maybe simplify the tax code a bit (though to be honest, I'm not even sure about that - taxes are pretty simple for the majority of people, most Americans don't use itemized deduction).

I wouldn't know how to do this for self employed people, but I think that issue can wait.

So the taxes are done for everyone that chooses to particapate (whom don't itemized their deductions) by the government and they rebate you or collect based on what your dependent number is and your wages (which are calculated by your employer) through out the year?

That seems complicated, but so is the current situation too. Hmmm.....I can see something like this working if done right and at one piece at a time.

But can you imagine the what Alex, Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck would say if Obama pushed for this form of "efficiency"? LOL!
 
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