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PoliGAF 2013 |OT3| 1,000 Years of Darkness and Nuclear Fallout

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G

GhaleonEB

Member
WayneMorse said:
I think he can replicate Obama's grassroots campaign in 2008. The Tea Party is crazy, and they'll want to nominate someone as pure as Cruz.
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The Tea Party, yes. But as the last GOP presidential primary demonstrated, the Tea Party is not large enough to decide things on a national level.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
The GOP will detonate Cruz's campaign, just watch. Anyone who casually walked around co-ed dorm halls in a robe has dirt in his closet somewhere.
 
P

Piecake

Member
speculawyer said:
Ted Cruz is toast. He pissed off so many GOPers. His dad is crazy.

He is great for the Dems. He'll suck up lots campaign donations from the rubes and blow them on a completely pointless campaign
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Not for him though. He will get a bigger spotlight, more attention, and more adulation from the extreme right so that when he loses or steps down he can easily follow in Jim Demitt's shoes and make bank by telling senators how to vote or else face dire consequences

PhoenixPause said:
The GOP will detonate Cruz's campaign, just watch. Anyone who casually walked around co-ed dorm halls in a robe has dirt in his closet somewhere.
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Or he could just enjoy the feel of fresh air on his privates
 
P

Piecake

Member
Notrollious said:
Clearly they should have thought about their income and status before having 5 kids!!!1!1! They should have them taken away!

But in all seriousness, that's great. Great to hear success stories.
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That attitude is really disgusting. What is even more disgusting is that ive seen several posters blaming poor people if they have ANY kids when you can't really afford a kid on the median wage. I mean, wtf?

Besides being completely stupid from a long term social and economic perspective, why the fuck would you want to live in a society where the average citizen can't afford to have kids? And shouldnt you be blaming the system and not the poors? Its kinda a biological imperative that we have kinds and all...
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Piecake said:
That attitude is really disgusting. What is even more disgusting is that ive seen several posters blaming poor people if they have ANY kids when you can't really afford a kid on the median wage. I mean, wtf?

Besides being completely stupid from a long term social and economic perspective, why the fuck would you want to live in a society where the average citizen can't afford to have kids? And shouldnt you be blaming the system and not the poors? Its kinda a biological imperative that we have kinds and all...
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I dunno, but when I hear that argument, it really makes me opposed to raising the minimum wage!
 
P

platypotamus

Member
Piecake said:
Besides being completely stupid from a long term social and economic perspective, why the fuck would you want to live in a society where the average citizen can't afford to have kids? And shouldnt you be blaming the system and not the poors? Its kinda a biological imperative that we have kinds and all...
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Indeed. I'm all for encouraging people to not have kids irresponsibly, or even in general to combat overpopulation, but it should be a basic protected right anyone has.
 
P

Piecake

Member
Oblivion said:
Holy carp. I never thought I'd see an exchange between Bob Schieffer and a GOP congressman where the fucking GOP congressman comes off as less of a shithead:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bob-schi...ran-deal-diversionary-tactic-for-obama-admin/
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It really scares me that some beltway types think like this. Thats a pretty clear indication that they think politics is more important the policy and issues.

Plus, how does that even make sense? If the AP story was right, Obama has been working on this for years, and its picked up steam this year thanks to Rohani, which only happened recently. Its really idiotic to think that Iran and all of the other nations agreed with the deal at this time just to make Americans forget about Obamacare or some stupid shit.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Piecake said:
What a fucking moron.

Yes, easing sanctions from fucking over Iran's economy is such a burden on us. Holy hell. The whole point of sanctions was to get rid of Iran's nuclear weapons program and this deal does that!
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To be fair we haven't seen the end of this process yet. Iran can still tell everyone to fuck off, at which sanctions return and this entire framework blows up. I'm glad we have made progress but the ball is now in Iran's court.

Schumer and others prefer a permanent state of antagonism and aggression, this deal potentially threatens that status quo.
 
P

Piecake

Member
PhoenixPause said:
To be fair we haven't seen the end of this process yet. Iran can still tell everyone to fuck off, at which sanctions return and this entire framework blows up. I'm glad we have made progress but the ball is now in Iran's court.

Schumer and others prefer a permanent state of antagonism and aggression, this deal potentially threatens that status quo.
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Well, yea. Lets see if they live up to their end of the bargain. If they dont, we put the sanctions back in place. That path actually has an option for peace and prosperity, etc

The other option is just pure idiocy.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
PhoenixPause said:
Makes me wonder how that story would be received if it was coming out of Detroit instead of a white, rural county in the south. Hoping an improved economy will eventually move a lot of people off Medicaid/welfare, but in the meantime they need help.
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I think the purpose of the story was to play on the assumption poors are all urban minorities.

Article reminds me a lot of stuff I read about the Medicare roll out where there was trouble reaching a lot of rural elderly
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Piecake said:
That attitude is really disgusting. What is even more disgusting is that ive seen several posters blaming poor people if they have ANY kids when you can't really afford a kid on the median wage. I mean, wtf?

Besides being completely stupid from a long term social and economic perspective, why the fuck would you want to live in a society where the average citizen can't afford to have kids? And shouldnt you be blaming the system and not the poors? Its kinda a biological imperative that we have kinds and all...
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Its the reduction of human life and society to purely economic transactions.

I'm just amazed how it implicitly endorses a fundamentaly unequal society. Rights must be bought.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
APKmetsfan said:
I think the purpose of the story was to play on the assumption poors are all urban minorities.

Article reminds me a lot of stuff I read about the Medicare roll out where there was trouble reaching a lot of rural elderly
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I took it more as a story about the law working in a solid red state, within one of the poorest (and conservative) counties within. Still the comparison struck me immediately.
 
S

smokeandmirrors

Banned
Boom Boom Pow said:
you would think bad decisions would have stopped after the 3rd one. do they not teach birth control? Some other lady in that article had 11 kids.

blah.
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Because birth control and pregnancy planning are taboo topics.

That and lack of insurance means lack of availability of female birth control on top of shitty sex education.
 
Link

Link

The Autumn Wind
You're assuming she was making that when she had the kids. For all we know, she lost a better paying job after they were born.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Boom Boom Pow said:
how does someone with only 14k a year have five kids? gah damn. one i understand. two okay...but after that? how the hell
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Why do people focus on her kids rather than her poverty?

The kids are not the problem, the fact she makes so little is.
PhoenixPause said:
I took it more as a story about the law working in a solid red state, within one of the poorest (and conservative) counties within. Still the comparison struck me immediately.
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Yeah that too
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Boom Boom Pow said:
you would think bad decisions would have stopped after the 3rd one. do they not teach birth control? Some other lady in that article had 11 kids.

blah.
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She popped out 5 kids so she can get free money from hard working Merkins like you and I. Another one of them takers. Wait, she didn't know about the free money... Then who was phone???
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Boom Boom Pow said:
you would think bad decisions would have stopped after the 3rd one. do they not teach birth control? Some other lady in that article had 11 kids.

blah.
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Yeah, I find that a bit disgusting. Dont' have kids that you can't afford at all. Of course, I better shut up now because I my last ban was because I suggested that criminals who already have kids that are on welfare should no longer be allowed to have kids.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Will Reid even bring a new sanctions bill to the floor? I'm sure it'll pass, but not by enough to withstand a veto. It's kind of hard to see Reid serving that type of shit sandwich for Obama, given the political show that will play out ("Obama vetoes protection for Israel").
 
B

Boom Boom Pow

Banned
APKmetsfan said:
Why do people focus on her kids rather than her poverty?

The kids are not the problem, the fact she makes so little is.

Yeah that too
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because her poverty can also be caused by her kids. let's say she had them when she was 18. meaning she couldn't go to college. she has another one at 20. now she can't go and get skilled at something.

no wage in the world can allow her to raise her kids comfortable unless she's a millionaire
 
P

Piecake

Member
speculawyer said:
Yeah, I find that a bit disgusting. Dont' have kids that you can't afford at all. Of course, I better shut up now because I my last ban was because I suggested that criminals who already have kids that are on welfare should no longer be allowed to have kids.
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The problem with this attitude is that you are blaming her for growing up in a poor neighborhood with shit education who then received a shit education and remained poor since simply growing up in poverty and receiving a poor education has serious effects on decision making and long term planning.

You incorrectly assume that you and her think the same way and the stresses in your live are equal to hers, your experiences are equal to hers, and education is equal to hers . Thats completely naive and, well, foolish

In August, Science published a landmark study concluding that poverty, itself, hurts our ability to make decisions about school, finances, and life, imposing a mental burden similar to losing 13 IQ points.

It was widely seen as a counter-argument to claims that poor people are "to blame" for bad decisions and a rebuke to policies that withhold money from the poorest families unless they behave in a certain way. After all, if being poor leads to bad decision-making (as opposed to the other way around), then giving cash should alleviate the cognitive burdens of poverty, all on its own.
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http://www.theatlantic.com/business...oor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

education disparity between classes

This understanding of the brain’s bandwidth could fundamentally change the way we think about poverty. Researchers publishing some groundbreaking findings today in the journal Science have concluded that poverty imposes such a massive cognitive load on the poor that they have little bandwidth left over to do many of the things that might lift them out of poverty – like go to night school, or search for a new job, or even remember to pay bills on time.

In a series of experiments run by researchers at Princeton, Harvard, and the University of Warwick, low-income people who were primed to think about financial problems performed poorly on a series of cognition tests, saddled with a mental load that was the equivalent of losing an entire night’s sleep. Put another way, the condition of poverty imposed a mental burden akin to losing 13 IQ points, or comparable to the cognitive difference that’s been observed between chronic alcoholics and normal adults.

The finding further undercuts the theory that poor people, through inherent weakness, are responsible for their own poverty – or that they ought to be able to lift themselves out of it with enough effort. This research suggests that the reality of poverty actually makes it harder to execute fundamental life skills. Being poor means, as the authors write, “coping with not just a shortfall of money, but also with a concurrent shortfall of cognitive resources.”
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http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/08/how-poverty-taxes-brain/6716/

Blaming poor people for bad decisions is completely idiotic because poverty negatively effects decision making skills. What you should be doing is blaming poverty and doing things to change that, not shaking your head at the stupid poor people and forcing them to have less kids.

It simply goes against scientific data
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
We also have to assume religion might play a big role. You know that whole "be fruitfly and multiply" thing.

My cousin who got in arranged marriage recently keeps trying to convince me to go for it. I'm not exactly poor thankfully, but there's no way I'd be able to support a wife AND that cursed wench that is mi madre.
 
B

Boom Boom Pow

Banned
Piecake said:
The problem with this attitude is that you are blaming her for growing up in a poor neighborhood with shit education who then received a shit education and remained poor since simply growing up in poverty and receiving a poor education has serious effects on decision making and long term planning.

You incorrectly assume that you and her think the same way and the stresses in your live are equal to hers, your experiences are equal to hers, and education is equal to hers . Thats completely naive and, well, foolish



http://www.theatlantic.com/business...oor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

education disparity between classes



http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/08/how-poverty-taxes-brain/6716/

Blaming poor people for bad decisions is completely idiotic because poverty negatively effects decision making skills. What you should be doing is blaming poverty and doing things to change that, not shaking your head at the stupid poor people and forcing them to have less kids.

It simply goes against scientific data
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it's both problem, the way I see it. it is the fault of the government for not funding the school enough to give every kids, regardless of wealth, a good education, especially when it comes to reproductive health.

however, the onus is also on the person as well. trying to absolve personal responsibility due to just "poverty" is reckless. trying to argue that IQ points is synonymous with intelligence, or just rational thinking, is faulty. is considering how everyone should know kids come from sex...and if a person see that, hey, with just 1 kid, i'm struggling to feed it and cloth it...then maybe with 2 kids, it'll be worse...
 
P

Piecake

Member
Boom Boom Pow said:
it's both problem, the way I see it. it is the fault of the government for not funding the school enough to give every kids, regardless of wealth, a good education, especially when it comes to reproductive health.

however, the onus is also on the person as well. trying to absolve personal responsibility due to just "poverty" is reckless. trying to argue that IQ points is synonymous with intelligence, or just rational thinking, is faulty. is considering how everyone should know kids come from sex...and if a person see that, hey, with just 1 kid, i'm struggling to feed it and cloth it...then maybe with 2 kids, it'll be worse...
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It sounds like you are disregarding the findings simply because you dont like them. The study specifically states that poverty negatively effects decision making and long term planning and lowers your cognitive ability, and you think these people should just 'know' these things? Okay...

And your solution, more education, helps, but it doesnt solve the issue because people growing up in poverty will do worse in school because of toxic stress and your brain being taxed from issues related to your poverty.

The country is far from fulfilling King's dream that race no longer limit children's opportunities, but how much income their parents earn is more and more influential. According to a 2011 research study by Stanford sociologist Sean Reardon, the test-score gap between the children of the poor (in the 10th percentile of income) and the children of the wealthy (in the 90th percentile) has expanded by as much as 40 percent and is now more than 50 percent larger than the black-white achievement gap--a reversal of the trend 50 years ago. Underprivileged children now languish at achievement levels that are close to four years behind their wealthy peers.
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Its not absolving, its putting it in context. Yes, having kids that you can't afford is stupid and we should provide education and help to change that, but blaming poor people for poor decisions is incredibly stupid because poverty has a huge impact on decision making, learning and development. Change the circumstance that causes their poor decisions before you call them morons.

Before responding, the subjects were given a series of common tests (identifying sequences of shapes and numbers, for example) measuring cognitive function and fluid intelligence. In the easier scenario, where the hypothetical repair cost only $150, subjects classified as “poor” and “rich” performed equally well on these tests. But the “poor” subjects performed noticeably worse in the $1,500 scenario. Simply asking these people to think about financial problems taxed their mental bandwidth.

“And these are not people in abject poverty,” Shafir says. “These are regular folks going to the mall that day.”

The “rich” subjects in the study experienced no such difficulty. In the second experiment, the researchers found similar results when working with a group of farmers in India who experience a natural annual cycle of poverty and plenty. These farmers receive 60 percent of their annual income in one lump sum after the sugarcane harvest. Beforehand, they are essentially poor. Afterward (briefly), they’re not. In the state of pre-harvest poverty, however, they exhibited the same shortage of cognitive bandwidth seen in the American subjects in a New Jersey mall.

The design of these experiments wasn't particularly groundbreaking, which makes it all the more astounding that we’ve never previously understood this connection between cognition and poverty.
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I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don’t pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It’s not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn’t that I blow five bucks at Wendy’s. It’s that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ever will be. It is not worth it to me to live a bleak life devoid of small pleasures so that one day I can make a single large purchase. I will never have large pleasures to hold on to. There’s a certain pull to live what bits of life you can while there’s money in your pocket, because no matter how responsible you are you will be broke in three days anyway. When you never have enough money it ceases to have meaning. I imagine having a lot of it is the same thing.

Poverty is bleak and cuts off your long-term brain. It’s why you see people with four different babydaddies instead of one. You grab a bit of connection wherever you can to survive. You have no idea how strong the pull to feel worthwhile is. It’s more basic than food. You go to these people who make you feel lovely for an hour that one time, and that’s all you get. You’re probably not compatible with them for anything long-term, but right this minute they can make you feel powerful and valuable. It does not matter what will happen in a month. Whatever happens in a month is probably going to be just about as indifferent as whatever happened today or last week. None of it matters. We don’t plan long-term because if we do we’ll just get our hearts broken. It’s best not to hope. You just take what you can get as you spot it.
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And that is another way of looking at it. Poverty has so grounded down her hope and expectations of not being poor and struggles so much to get by she just tries to make the most of life in the moment. From her perspective, and the way she put it, that seems very rational.

idea that poverty's stress interferes with our ability to make good decisions. The inescapability of poverty weighs so heavily on the author that s/he abandons long-term planning entirely, because the short term needs are so great and the long-term gains so implausible. The train is just not coming. What if the psychology of poverty, which can appear so irrational to those not in poverty, is actually "the most rational response to a world of chaos and unpredictable outcomes," he wrote.

None of this is an argument against poorer families trying to save or plan for the long-term. It's an argument for context. As Eldar Shafir, the author of the Science study, told The Atlantic Cities' Emily Badger: “All the data shows it isn't about poor people, it’s about people who happen to be in poverty. All the data suggests it is not the person, it's the context they’re inhabiting.”
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Z

zero shift

Banned
Poverty isn't a structural thing, its a choice thing. Just look at other modern economies such as say Japan. Very hardworking people who don't have kids and thus no poverty.
 
R

RoninChaos

Member
Boom Boom Pow said:
because her poverty can also be caused by her kids. let's say she had them when she was 18. meaning she couldn't go to college. she has another one at 20. now she can't go and get skilled at something.

no wage in the world can allow her to raise her kids comfortable unless she's a millionaire
Click to expand...

Will you stop your hit and run bullshit? You did that in the other thread, got shit on and never retrurned, proving how colossally stupid your line of thinking was. You were advocating redistribution of peoples children instead of raising minimum wage. Don't bring that bullshit here, please.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
RoninChaos said:
Will you stop your hit and run bullshit? You did that in the other thread, got shit on and never retrurned, proving how colossally stupid your line of thinking was. You were advocating redistribution of peoples children instead of raising minimum wage. Don't bring that bullshit here, please.
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That wasn't him, that was some other guy. BBP was the one who insisted on luring us into the "name a minimum living wage so I can point out how dumb that specific number is" trap and when no-one fell for it he went into his own in-depth analysis in which "we can't just let only rich people live at the beach so a minimum living wage has to support beachfront property right?"
 
G

Giant Panda

Member
Piecake said:
The problem with this attitude is that you are blaming her for growing up in a poor neighborhood with shit education who then received a shit education and remained poor since simply growing up in poverty and receiving a poor education has serious effects on decision making and long term planning.

You incorrectly assume that you and her think the same way and the stresses in your live are equal to hers, your experiences are equal to hers, and education is equal to hers . Thats completely naive and, well, foolish
Click to expand...

Are you saying she shouldn't take any of the responsibility for her bad decisions? It is widely recognized that other people that have messed up childhoods are still responsible for any bad stuff they may do as adults, though we have a greater understanding of why they do what they did. So while I understand why someone raised in poverty might make poor decisions, I believe they still deserve the majority, but not all, of the responsibility for having made those poor decisions.
 
R

RoninChaos

Member
The Technomancer said:
That wasn't him, that was some other guy. BBP was the one who insisted on luring us into the "name a minimum living wage so I can point out how dumb that specific number is" trap and when no-one fell for it he went into his own in-depth analysis in which "we can't just let only rich people live at the beach so a minimum living wage has to support beachfront property right?"
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No, he joined in on it, on top of that beach front property bullshit and saying you could spend like 2k a year on healthcare.

Boom Boom Pow said:
If she doesn't have the capacity to take care of them all, take them away, put them up for adoption, and tie her Fallopian tube.
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