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PoliGAF 2013 |OT3| 1,000 Years of Darkness and Nuclear Fallout

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Dems care about our economic stability? lmao

How much debt has been incurred under Obama's watch? How many budgets were passed through Congress when Dems ran things? Did we do anything during the shutdown to stop the massive rise in our debt? Nope, we funded another gigantic entitlement program, we increased the debt ceiling ( as if this means anything at this point ), we increased government spending and hell dems wanted to end the budget cuts! lol.

Talk shit all day long about the Repubes, I could care less, but don't even sit back and try and start acting like Dems care at all anymore about our economy.

You're going to have a bad time if all you've got are regurgitated talking points from Fox News. Instead of asking how much debt was incurred under President Obama's watch, you need to be asking why debt would need to be incurred under President Obama's watch.

Private industry was paralyzed and the stock market was in freefall due to the 2008 financial crash. The government had to spend the money that private industry wasn't willing to spend.

As far as budgets go: Republicans have time and time again refused to come to the table and negotiate in good faith about passing a legitimate budget. President Obama isn't responsible for Republican obstructionism.

Furthermore, President Obama isn't wrong in saying that the federal deficit is declining at the fastest rate since World War 2.
 
GOP are masters of projection. I don't know what's worse: thinking that the GOP were the adults in this whole debacle, or when Palin / Cruz said that the administration was using WWII veterans as political pawns in a game when speaking to veterans as a rally in the memorial.

I mean, c'mon.

Yeah. That shit killed me. Like "if Obama is exploiting veterans, then what are you doing here"?

Dat bubble.
 
Dems care about our economic stability? lmao

How much debt has been incurred under Obama's watch? How many budgets were passed through Congress when Dems ran things? Did we do anything during the shutdown to stop the massive rise in our debt? Nope, we funded another gigantic entitlement program, we increased the debt ceiling ( as if this means anything at this point ), we increased government spending and hell dems wanted to end the budget cuts! lol.

Talk shit all day long about the Repubes, I could care less, but don't even sit back and try and start acting like Dems care at all anymore about our economy.

you do realized Obama took over when the US' economy, and much of the world, had the worst crash since the Depression. Go study some economics. Learn what a money multiplier is.

then come back
 
Dems care about our economic stability? lmao

How much debt has been incurred under Obama's watch? How many budgets were passed through Congress when Dems ran things? Did we do anything during the shutdown to stop the massive rise in our debt? Nope, we funded another gigantic entitlement program, we increased the debt ceiling ( as if this means anything at this point ), we increased government spending and hell dems wanted to end the budget cuts! lol.

Mind letting us (and the overwhelming majority of mainstream & chartalist economists) know how the debt that "has been incurred under Obama's watch" has contributed to economic instability in more than an abstract way?
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
OjpH9SV.gif

I love it
 
You're going to have a bad time if all you've got are regurgitated talking points from Fox News. Instead of asking how much debt was incurred under President Obama's watch, you need to be asking why debt would need to be incurred under President Obama's watch.

Private industry was paralyzed and the stock market was in freefall due to the 2008 financial crash. The government had to spend the money that private industry wasn't willing to spend.

As far as budgets go: Republicans have time and time again refused to come to the table and negotiate in good faith about passing a legitimate budget. President Obama isn't responsible for Republican obstructionism.

Furthermore, President Obama isn't wrong in saying that the federal deficit is declining at the fastest rate since World War 2.

Ohhh boy. Here we go trying to defend Dems on the economy now too. Heck the deficit is even declining now! Amazing how that number keeps skyrocketing and we were overbudget way back in May.

Laugh all the way to the dollar being non-existent in 10 years. With this mountain of debt we will NEVER get rid of, it is only a matter of time. Especially since all we are able to do these days is blame the other side while continue doing the same things that are incurring all the debt in the first place.

http://www.usfederalbudget.us/federal_budget_detail_fy13bs12014n_G0F0#usgs302

The deficit is dropping is now a good thing? How about no deficit at all? Man I really wish I could live life like the government. Just spend oblivious to how much you actually earn each year.

By 2017 even with a very healthy, growing economy ( which Obamacare could indeed halt a bit ) we are at 21T in debt and still growing it by more then half a TRILLION a year.

I dunno, its laughable at this point to even talk about this economy. Ran by a ton of people who could give a shit.

Mind letting us (and the overwhelming majority of mainstream & chartalist economists) know how the debt that "has been incurred under Obama's watch" has contributed to economic instability in more than an abstract way?

Exactly my point. Who gives a shit if we owe 140K or so per worker in this country. Who is going to stop us from incurring more debt? Haahahaha.

Laugh all the way to the bank ... until someone stops us at the door and stops letting us in.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Ohhh boy. Here we go trying to defend Dems on the economy now too. Heck the deficit is even declining now! Amazing how that number keeps skyrocketing and we were overbudget way back in May.

Laugh all the way to the dollar being non-existent in 10 years. With this mountain of debt we will NEVER get rid of, it is only a matter of time. Especially since all we are able to do these days is blame the other side while continue doing the same things that are incurring all the debt in the first place.

http://www.usfederalbudget.us/federal_budget_detail_fy13bs12014n_G0F0#usgs302

The deficit is dropping is now a good thing? How about no deficit at all? Man I really wish I could live life like the government. Just spend oblivious to how much you actually earn each year.

By 2017 even with a very healthy, growing economy ( which Obamacare could indeed halt a bit ) we are at 21T in debt and still growing it by more then half a TRILLION a year.

I dunno, its laughable at this point to even talk about this economy. Ran by a ton of people who could give a shit.



Exactly my point. Who gives a shit if we owe 140K or so per worker in this country. Who is going to stop us from incurring more debt? Haahahaha.

Laugh all the way to the bank ... until someone stops us at the door and stops letting us in.

OK, explain to us why all this debt is such a big deal then.
 
You clearly don't mean to use that word. It must have just slipped out, in place of one that would make sense.

True, it would be better if we somehow did not know how much we made each year. But we do, we just ignore it.

I apologize to the resident grammar cop for my offense.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Exactly my point. Who gives a shit if we owe 140K or so per worker in this country. Who is going to stop us from incurring more debt? Haahahaha.

Laugh all the way to the bank ... until someone stops us at the door and stops letting us in.

But...we run the bank. That's the fundamental point. We can't run out of money. We can spend money so fast that inflation becomes a problem, but it hasn't really so far. We'd really have to be dumping money into the economy, on a scale that dwarfs what we're currently doing.
 

codhand

Member
imagine a two week vaca with double pay, that's what just happened, and i want to know where i can sign up

boehner, best boss evaar

obama played this to perfection and the cruz teahadists left the GOP holding the bag, as pure a win in politics as ive witnessed.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Dat thread title JAYSUS
i13XwEQEs84RF.gif


edit: Stylishly beaten by Chichikov's demands gif lmao
we funded another gigantic entitlement program, we increased the debt ceiling ( as if this means anything at this point ), we increased government spending and hell dems wanted to end the budget cuts! lol.
yikes.

I for one, even with the foreknowledge that they will no longer exist in 10 years, plan to hang onto my dollars.
 
Exactly my point. Who gives a shit if we owe 140K or so per worker in this country. Who is going to stop us from incurring more debt? Haahahaha.

Laugh all the way to the bank ... until someone stops us at the door and stops letting us in.

I didn't say "who gives a shit about all of the debt?", I said "who gives a shit about the debt incurred since 2007 specifically?"

Laugh all the way to not answering the simple goddamn question posed to you so you can keep engaging in Paul Ryan-esque debt alarmism.

This thread will play the role of Joe Biden.
 

zargle

Member
im still trying to figure out what gigantic entitlement program we just funded. Did they pass single-payer while I was sleeping?
 
Ohhh boy. Here we go trying to defend Dems on the economy now too. Heck the deficit is even declining now! Amazing how that number keeps skyrocketing and we were overbudget way back in May.

Laugh all the way to the dollar being non-existent in 10 years. With this mountain of debt we will NEVER get rid of, it is only a matter of time. Especially since all we are able to do these days is blame the other side while continue doing the same things that are incurring all the debt in the first place.

http://www.usfederalbudget.us/federal_budget_detail_fy13bs12014n_G0F0#usgs302

The deficit is dropping is now a good thing? How about no deficit at all? Man I really wish I could live life like the government. Just spend oblivious to how much you actually earn each year.

By 2017 even with a very healthy, growing economy ( which Obamacare could indeed halt a bit ) we are at 21T in debt and still growing it by more then half a TRILLION a year.

I dunno, its laughable at this point to even talk about this economy. Ran by a ton of people who could give a shit.



Exactly my point. Who gives a shit if we owe 140K or so per worker in this country. Who is going to stop us from incurring more debt? Haahahaha.

Laugh all the way to the bank ... until someone stops us at the door and stops letting us in.
You have no fucking idea how debt works. Personal debt (i.e the debt the common people acquire when we buy a Mercedes or BMW when we shouldn't have) and Government debt are two ENTIRELY different things. Like, they're so different that the ONLY thing they have in common is that they deal with money, and even that is a bit of stretch when you really break it down.

So long as the economy grows, no matter how "big" the number gets the US's debt will be no problem whatsoever. Like AT ALL. Period. And the funny thing is, when the US's economy slows to a crawl, so does the rest of the world, because we're so interconnected to ridiculous levels. So in that sense, even when our debt *becomes* a "problem", it's not like the rest of the world will do any better or "make" us pay it back.

So long as there is a global economy, the US will NEVER have to worry about its debt, simply because of how the system is set up (which we played a HUGE part in setting up to cover our own asses).

The debt is just a fear tactic used to rile up ignorant citizens about something they have absolutely no genuine understanding of. Which you prove in spades.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage

:lol at "tort reform."

Every damn time. It would do basically nothing to reduce costs. I remember how insane the right was about this until that study came out a few years ago that completely obliterated the idea that it would fix any problems in the health care industry.
 

pigeon

Banned
Dems care about our economic stability? lmao

How much debt has been incurred under Obama's watch? How many budgets were passed through Congress when Dems ran things? Did we do anything during the shutdown to stop the massive rise in our debt? Nope, we funded another gigantic entitlement program, we increased the debt ceiling ( as if this means anything at this point ), we increased government spending and hell dems wanted to end the budget cuts! lol.

Talk shit all day long about the Repubes, I could care less, but don't even sit back and try and start acting like Dems care at all anymore about our economy.

Why, exactly, should we be cutting debt? Why do you believe that reducing the deficit will stabilize our economy, when the conventional economic wisdom is that a recession requires expanding the deficit? Given the evidence that the fiscal multiplier is well above 1 during a recession, how do you propose to offset the massive loss in GDP that reducing the deficit will cause?

Laugh all the way to the dollar being non-existent in 10 years. With this mountain of debt we will NEVER get rid of, it is only a matter of time. Especially since all we are able to do these days is blame the other side while continue doing the same things that are incurring all the debt in the first place.

How, exactly, do you envision the dollar becoming nonexistent? Do you understand that the United States government has had a national debt for as long as it has existed?

Man I really wish I could live life like the government. Just spend oblivious to how much you actually earn each year.

You can! All you have to do is get a line of credit, compare the rate of interest to the rate of return on your various available investments, and spend on every investment with a positive net rate of return. It's easy! It's also, you know, the fundamental idea behind capitalism. It happens that the government has much larger available investments than the average consumer, because it has a much larger revenue channel to grow, but the principle is the same.

By 2017 even with a very healthy, growing economy ( which Obamacare could indeed halt a bit ) we are at 21T in debt and still growing it by more then half a TRILLION a year.

Why do you think Obamacare will slow the economy? Specifically.

I dunno, its laughable at this point to even talk about this economy. Ran by a ton of people who could give a shit.

Indeed, this is true. Any even halfway sensible politician would have perceived that huge budget cuts and a crippling government shutdown in the middle of a recession would cause needless suffering to millions of Americans by choking off the rate of growth. But don't take my word for it!

wapo said:
Here's an eye-catching claim: A new report from Macroeconomic Advisers argues that Congress's budget battles, debt-ceiling stand-offs, and spending cuts have cost the U.S. economy nearly 3 percent of GDP since 2010.
That's roughly $700 billion in lost economic activity and more than two million lost jobs— all thanks to Congress. And that's before we even factor in the losses caused by the recent federal government shutdown....
1) Spending cuts have taken a bite out of economic growth. First, the report estimates that spending cuts enacted by Congress since 2010 have shaved 0.7 percentage points off annual U.S. economic growth over the past three years:
spending-cuts.png

In the chart above, the dashed red line is an estimate of what U.S. growth would have been if discretionary spending had stayed constant as a share of GDP since 2010.
But spending didn't stay constant. Various stimulus programs began winding down. And then, in August of 2011, Congress enacted the Budget Control Act, which set hard caps on discretionary spending and set things in motion for the sequestration budget cuts of 2012. All told, discretionary spending shrunk from 9.4 percent of GDP in 2010 to 7.3 percent today.
The report argues that this sort of fiscal drag is harmful when the U.S. economy is still far below full employment. As a result, the spending slowdown cut annual GDP growth by 0.7 percentage points and cost "the equivalent of 1.2 million lost jobs."...
2) Increased "policy uncertainty" due to congressional showdowns has also hurt growth. But the report isn't done yet. They also estimate that all the turmoil and uncertainty due to Congress's fights over the debt ceiling and the "fiscal cliff" has put a smaller dent in growth. Here's their second chart:
10112013_crisis_driven_report_chart-5.gif

...Their implication is that growth would be higher without all this brinkmanship. The increased policy uncertainty, the report argues, "lowered GDP growth by 0.3 percentage points per year, and raised the unemployment rate in 2013 by 0.6 percentage points, equivalent to 900,000 lost jobs."
When you add these two effects up — and account for compounding growth, as Paul Krugman does — then the report essentially implies that Congress's budget battles have cost the United States roughly 3 percent of GDP, or around $700 billion of wasted economic potential and more than 2 million lost jobs since 2011.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...esss-budget-battles-have-cost-us-700-billion/
http://pgpf.org/special-reports/the-cost-of-crisis-driven-fiscal-policy

And, of course, the direct cost of the shutdown is almost $24 billion in reduced GDP, which means $24 billion worth of lost money and jobs for the average American.

Laugh all the way to the bank ... until someone stops us at the door and stops letting us in.

You understand that the yield on US Treasury bonds represents the reluctance of the average investor to lend us money, right? With higher numbers representing a higher credit risk? Do you happen to know what that yield is in real terms today?
 
Sam Wang on this shutdown's lasting public opinion effects (if any)

My own analysis of current surveys indicates that in a Congressional election today, Democrats would retake the House with >90% probability and a 50-seat margin. Last week I pointed out that assuming historical patterns, by next November that probability for the actual election diminishes to 50% or less. Another estimate gives a comparable probability of 25-35%.

However, the last two weeks have been quite strange – as evidenced by the fact that you are visiting the Princeton Election Consortium, reading about polls an entire year before a midterm election! So something might be different. I’ve never seen such a rapid and large shift in the generic Congressional preference. Will this “shutdown bounce” last? Or will it dissipate quickly?

I estimate that in the absence of any further political crisis events, the current bounce will affect opinion for between 2 and 6 months. Here’s the argument.
 

besada

Banned
My favorite bit of the Shutdown?

The Houston Chronicle essentially retracted its endorsement of Ted Cruz, comparing him unfavorably to Kay Bailey. That's got to sting a little.
 

Arde5643

Member
Looks like Poligaf is back to the normal swing of things, explaining about debt ceiling or role of government to libertarians.

Ahh, I've taken for granted how sweet and relaxing the boring tedious flow of poligaf is.
 
I'm beginning to think Tea Party Republicans bragging about the shutdown plus growing favorability of the Affordable Care Act as people get to know the exchanges will lead to very favorable conditions for Democrats next election. Far more favorable than 1996.
 
And this is the part where IAmRandom31 will ignore pigeon's entire post because these are how these things play out. Yay.

I wouldn't think of it as a futile effort, I would think of it as educating people that weren't directly posting but watching the conversation. Education is always a worthwhile cause even if the info goes directly over the intended target's head.
 
The very serious Paul Ryan on September 28:

I asked Ryan if he believes President Obama’s steadfast vows that he won’t negotiate over the debt ceiling. His reaction? You’ve got to be kidding me.

“Oh, nobody believes that. Nobody believes that. He himself negotiated Bowles Simpson on the debt limit with Democrats. That was Kent Conrad’s requirement. He himself negotiated the Budget Control Act with the debt limit. Graham Rudman. Bush Andrews Airforce Base. Clinton Gore ‘97. All of those major budget agreements were debt limit agreements. I see this time as no different and I believe he does too. I think most people believe he’s just posturing for now,” he says.

:rollin
 
And this is the part where IAmRandom31 will ignore pigeon's entire post because these are how these things play out. Yay.
To be fair, he'd have to wade through flippant responses like shao khan's in order to even get to pigeon's post. "Why bother" shouldn't be a very surprising response.

Not to say that his own flippancy should be excused or anything, but if our goal is education, making our points as palatable as possible would probably be best.

Not that I'm one to talk. I'm probably flippant quite often when I'm in an ill mood.
 
Income verification section of the bill. Nothing new, other than the secretary having to issue a report to Congress on how they're enforcing the law as it was written, and a report mid-year 2014 on how effective it's been. Presumably to enable a GOP witch hunt.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...e-bill-that-will-end-the-government-shutdown/

"I've gotten reports from people in my district that ACORN has been illegally signing people up for Obamacare!" - Louie Gohmert, 2014
 
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