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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops

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D

Deleted member 231381

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Okay, real question because this could be important: almost every recent poll that has come out bar PPP shows the margin between Sanders and Clinton as smaller than the percentage of O'Malley supporters. O'Malley is well below the 15% threshhold and likely will be in every single district, barring very strange events. Therefore, his supporters will have to choose to join other Sanders or Clinton. This could have a critical effect.

Who do we think O'Malley supporters will favour?
 

benjipwns

Banned
CTE7TCsXAAAyPT1.png


It's like he's coaching them on what talking points to say. Controlling the primary entirely from the shadows. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being President in two years, no matter who ends up winning the election. He's shady af.
Truman/An unidentified man 2016!
 
The problem on the left is that there is no comparable equivalent to the Tea Party keeping people engaged. There is total reliance on the presidential candidates having the ability to sweep everyone together all at once. But just as the tide goes in, the tide must also go out, and so once the President is out of the picture, there's a motivational vacuum above and beyond the normal off-year absences.

It's like the difference between an awareness based charity and a research based charity. The former can often go viral and capture a lot of fleeting mind-share, but ultimately nothing really gets accomplished and everyone forgets about it within a year or two. The latter continually hums along and doesn't really seem exciting, but it gets things done.

More and more people are having their political identities tied up in the revolving social-media crisis/issue of the day. That doesn't translate well into political action.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The problem on the left is that there is no comparable equivalent to the Tea Party keeping people engaged. There is total reliance on the presidential candidates having the ability to sweep everyone together all at once. But just as the tide goes in, the tide must also go out, and so once the President is out of the picture, there's a motivational vacuum above and beyond the normal off-year absences.

It's like the difference between an awareness based charity and a research based charity. The former can often go viral and capture a lot of fleeting mind-share, but ultimately nothing really gets accomplished and everyone forgets about it within a year or two. The latter continually hums along and doesn't really feel important or exciting, but it gets things done.

But the Republicans embraced their Tea Party. I think the Democrats could have had a "Tea Party" following 2008, but they distanced themselves hard and got punished.
 

benjipwns

Banned
The problem on the left is that there is no comparable equivalent to the Tea Party keeping people engaged. There is total reliance on the presidential candidates having the ability to sweep everyone together all at once. But just as the tide goes in, the tide must also go out, and so once the President is out of the picture, there's a motivational vacuum above and beyond the normal off-year absences.
The Democratic Party is still an alliance of electoral convenience. Many of the "allies" actually would find themselves on opposite sides from each other when it comes down to it. (This showed up in a lot of the collapse of the agenda in 2009-10. Especially within the White House.)

The Republican Party has been much better at aligning around roughly three or four pillars ideologically in which each wing supports at least two of them. The Tea Party movement rejuvenated one of these pillars and then helped rejuvenate parts of the others from sheer momentum from getting people engaged again.

More and more people are having their political identities tied up in the revolving social-media crisis/issue of the day. That doesn't translate well into political action.
Politics as sport is the dominant form of media coverage by far.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The Democratic Party is still an alliance of electoral convenience. Many of the "allies" actually would find themselves on opposite sides from each other when it comes down to it. (This showed up in a lot of the collapse of the agenda in 2009-10. Especially within the White House.)

The Republican Party has been much better at aligning around roughly three or four pillars ideologically in which each wing supports at least two of them. The Tea Party movement rejuvenated one of these pillars and then helped rejuvenate parts of the others.

I've often argued here that the Democrats are a wider tent than the Republicans but everyone seemed to disagree. Glad you see it too.
 
The poll finds that the 'birther issue' has the potential to really hurt Ted Cruz. Only 32% of Iowa Republicans think someone born in another country should be allowed to serve as President, to 47% who think such a person shouldn't be allowed to serve as President. Among that segment of the Republican electorate who don't think someone foreign born should be able to be President, Trump is crushing Cruz 40/14.

Despite all the attention to this issue in the last week, still only 46% of Iowa Republicans are aware that Cruz was not born in the United States. In fact, there are more GOP voters in the state who think Cruz (34%) was born in the United States than think Barack Obama (28%) was. Donald Trump knows what he's doing when he repeatedly brings up this issue- 36% of Cruz voters aren't aware yet that he wasn't born in the United States, and 24% of Cruz voters say someone born outside the country shouldn't be allowed to be President. So this issue has the potential to be a difference maker with the race persistently so close in Iowa. The good news for Cruz is that when informed, 65% of Iowa Republicans say it makes no difference to them that he was born in Canada- but 24% saying less likely could be crucial in a margin of error race.

Set me on fire.

There are some interesting divides in where Cruz and Trump's support is coming from. Cruz leads 38/26 to 13% for Carson among voters who are most concerned with having a conservative nominee, while Trump leads Cruz 31/21 to 18% for Rubio among voters who are most concerned with having a candidate who can win the general election. Cruz crushes Trump 41/23 among voters identifying themselves as 'very conservative' but Trump is up 29/22 with 'somewhat conservative' ones and 31/11 with moderates. Cruz is up 35/21 with younger voters, but Trump is up 31/22 with seniors and 32/22 with middle aged voters.

The Obama birther issue is also a major dividing line and gives another prism into the extent to which Trump's success is being driven by racism. Among people who think Obama was not born in the United States Trump is dominant, getting 38% to 23% for Cruz. But among non-birthers- either people who think Obama was born in the country or aren't sure, Cruz is leading Trump 29/22. Similarly Trump leads Cruz 37/26 among the 52% of Republican primary voters who are offended by bilingual, but among the 40% who aren't offended by them Trump is in only third place at 17% behind Cruz's 26% and Rubio's 18%. Trump's success really is built on the support of the most intolerant segment of the GOP base.

I have nothing left.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/...uld-hurt-cruz-sanders-gaining-on-clinton.html
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Okay, real question because this could be important: almost every recent poll that has come out bar PPP shows the margin between Sanders and Clinton as smaller than the percentage of O'Malley supporters. O'Malley is well below the 15% threshhold and likely will be in every single district, barring very strange events. Therefore, his supporters will have to choose to join other Sanders or Clinton. This could have a critical effect.

Who do we think O'Malley supporters will favour?

No thoughts on this? It's probably one of the most critical factors in play right now and I don't think we've seen any polling on it. By and large I intuitively like O'Malley's support must be not-Clinton establishment Dems, but I don't know whether they prioritize not-Clinton or establishment when the push comes to the shove.
 
But the Republicans embraced their Tea Party. I think the Democrats could have had a "Tea Party" following 2008, but they distanced themselves hard and got punished.

The Democrats have been far more shy about their left wing than the Republicans about their right, since at least the 20th century, and it intensified during the Cold War. But the 80s on in many way turned it into full out irrational terror. The Democrats would rather pretend that anything to the left of them doesn't exist and/or is totally irrational. There's actually a reasonably similar effect through the entire Anglosphere but its much more pronounced in America.
 

Plumbob

Member
Don't the polls ask who Democratic voters would pick as their second choice? That might be worth looking into although I imagine it's a relatively even split.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
The past fifty years have shown the right going more right and losing none of their own legitimacy. Half of America stop being conservative will never happen, no matter how much you think "heightening the contradictions" will help matters.

The lower and middle class whites have already proven they'll happily vote against benefits for themselves if any of those benefits go to brown or black people. You're not going to get people to vote for Bernie Sanders as long as Bernie Sanders doesn't want to kick out everybody whose last name ends with -z or who goes to a mosque.

Idiotic generalizations like that are precisely why the GOP is still in power and owns 31/50 governorships and state legislatures, as well as the Senate and House.

The Dems need to stay the hell away from identity politics - the GOP will annihilate them if it comes down to that. The dems have the demographic advantage, but the GOP is just flat out ran better as a political engine in the vast majority of elections in this country vs the Dem party.

I've often argued here that the Democrats are a wider tent than the Republicans but everyone seemed to disagree. Glad you see it too.

Dems are a much, much wider tent that the Republicans, and have been as long as I can remember. The primary itself should show how wide the tent is (HRC vs Sanders).
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Don't the polls ask who Democratic voters would pick as their second choice? That might be worth looking into although I imagine it's a relatively even split.

I haven't seen any that have done this. Unless PPP did it, I don't check them.
 
I've often argued here that the Democrats are a wider tent than the Republicans but everyone seemed to disagree. Glad you see it too.

Demographically, yes. Ideologically? I'm not sure I have enough knowledge or data to stake a claim one way or the other. I would hazard a guess that the gaps between your more extreme and less extreme members are probably similar across parties (or used to be), but it seems logical that the Democratic party might have more variance between what members identify as the guiding principle/issue of the party. I think most Americans fall outside the Democratic and Republican tents though, well, when you ask them anyway.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Lol, PPP actually did poll on it.

O'Malley supporters second choice is Sanders by 43/20 in IA and 47/13 in NH.

I'd like to see literally anyone else's polling on that though.

Supposing it's true (I don't), that implies that if O'Malley represents 5% and undecided O'Malley voters second choice is the same as decided O'Malley voters, then ~ 1.5% would go Clinton, 3.5% Sanders; they represent a +2% boost for the Sanders campaign.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Meghan Mccain has gotten way more right wing since she became a regular on fox news, lol what happened. I remember her bragging being moderate during 2008-12
She realized she was burning her bridges before her career even started.

She'll be a future force in the Senate:
Meghan McCain said:
I didn't even take Econ in college. I don't completely understand it so I'd hate to make a comment one way or the other. That's – truly of all the things – I keep reading and I just don't understand it.
 
So is Crab going to make some threads over the two new national polls showing Clinton with huge leads? NBC and Gravis?

Stop being disingenuous with your poll making threads people.
 
I've often argued here that the Democrats are a wider tent than the Republicans but everyone seemed to disagree. Glad you see it too.

Yes. The Democrats range from what would be considered Center-Right in other countries to pretty much the far edge of the Center Left just in terms of elected representatives. The party as a whole picks up the entire remaining left by default because the Republican Party stretches from Center-Right to various flavours of far right (Anarcho-Capitalism, Christian Dominionism, etc ) in terms of elected representatives and their base is similar which means that very few too the left of the Democrats are touching that with a 10 foot stick.

It's hidden primarily by two things I think. 1) The Democrats skew heavily towards the Right of their pattern, there's all of 4 Democrats who get much coverage who could be considered to be on the Left edge. and 2) The Democrats do their damnedest to pretend that the non-represented Left doesn't exist. It makes the party look smaller than it is.
 
Yep, Bet365, who probably has $millions on the table (the bookie's 2014 net worth was $1.6 billion), is most certainly starting to #FeelTheBern:

K7FVl8V.jpg


O.k., so Hillary's numbers, for GE (implied probability, from the odds: (1 / decimal odds) * 100), haven't changed much, dropping from 60 (out of 133, for entire market), to 58, but Bet365 is clearly reflecting some movement here (for Nom, she's dropped from 95 to 90).
 
GOP:

-Dixiecrats
-People that favor low taxes
-Super religious (non-Muslims)

Dems:

-Social Justice (which is some combination of LGBT, feminism, green, anti-racism, anti-war, anti-religion people that often disagree and fight)
-I'm in this party because the other side hates me because of my genitals or skin color.
-People that favor a welfare state


Are the groups I think of when I think of each party... I'm not sure one is more divided than the other, however.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
So is Crab going to make some threads over the two new national polls showing Clinton with huge leads? NBC and Gravis?

Stop being disingenuous with your poll making threads people.

I can do if you want. NBC is no change and Gravis had a swing towards Sanders, so I'm not sure how much they make you feel better.
 
Okay, real question because this could be important: almost every recent poll that has come out bar PPP shows the margin between Sanders and Clinton as smaller than the percentage of O'Malley supporters. O'Malley is well below the 15% threshhold and likely will be in every single district, barring very strange events. Therefore, his supporters will have to choose to join other Sanders or Clinton. This could have a critical effect.

Who do we think O'Malley supporters will favour?
I don't know the concerns of the 'margin of error' vote.



























Kidding! Of course I do! I'm a Marxist!
 
I can do if you want. NBC is no change and Gravis had a swing towards Sanders, so I'm not sure how much they make you feel better.

Yeah, he's only 40 points behind now in Gravis. My god.

edit: actually it looks like you're wrong. it went from 60-30 to 65-26, he lost ground.
 

User 406

Banned
This argument, on the other hand, is just the madman theory of negotiation. Which unfortunately has been getting a workout when we're talking about the American political system recently. It isn't, like, wrong, but it's also kind of risky, especially given that your leverage as a voter is only one vote wide in the first place. Madman negotiating works better when you have a bomb, not just a gun pointed at your own head.

There was a piece I read a very long time ago that discussed the effects of non-voting or protest voting which I can't seem to find now. It illustrated the futility of the idea by pointing out that election results are binary -- you either won or you didn't, and the motivations of your voters are largely opaque, and the non-voters even more so because you can't even exit poll them. It talked about how politicians don't chase missing voters from the previous election, they always chase engaged voters for the next one, and the history of voting from the last election is nothing more than a starting point for them to start building a new platform based upon current trends. Any "message" a protest voter wanted to send is never received, since it is essentially a lack of information, and new votes are earned by responding to the to the people who are actually making noise now. Electoral politics is always played out in the present tense. What issues won or lost a previous election could do the opposite in a new cycle, but the only way to know is to observe the electorate as it is, not speculate as to what would have won last time.

Perhaps the closest analogy is the economic concept of the sunk costs fallacy. Once a vote is cast, it can never be uncast, and therefore has no purpose in being part of the next round of decision making. Politicians are going to focus on the next batch of votes they can win, and aren't going to spend time reading tea leaves about votes they didn't get from people who didn't express their desires before they voted.

This comes back to, once again, the fact that general election voting is not political activism. Who you vote for in the booth will never be known to anyone, nor will your reasons why. It does not send a message, it only helps decide which of two policy platforms will be implemented for the next term. Voting is the very last part of the democratic process, where all the politics have been boiled down to a simple choice of governance. All the important activism stuff happens beforehand, in the streets, in the primaries, in talking to candidates and fellow voters. Once that's all over, there's just two choices, A or B. One of them is certain to be chosen, and depending on your political views, one will be overall better for you and one will be worse. Either you vote for the one that's better, or you make the one that's worse mathematically more likely. It's cruel, but that's how our system is. I don't like it either, but nobody else is bringing out guillotines yet, so it's all we've got.

Now, like someone else mentioned, threatening a lost vote does exert pressure, but following through on the threat is worthless. This is because voting is anonymous. The candidate has to act on the threat because they have no way to know if you'll follow through on it, but since they will never know if you followed through on it or not, actually not voting just serves to hurt yourself. Sunk costs fallacy again. You can't undo the names on the ballot that is the end result of all the political activism. You can't use your vote to change the policies of the candidates. If they get elected, they'll work to enact the platform they ran on. If they don't, the next time they run they'll build a platform based on what people are looking for at the time. Your vote can never change any of that. All it can do is determine which of two policy platforms get enacted right now. One of them will be better for you than the other. That's it.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Now, like someone else mentioned, threatening a lost vote does exert pressure, but following through on the threat is worthless. This is because voting is anonymous. The candidate has to act on the threat because they have no way to know if you'll follow through on it, but since they will never know if you followed through on it or not, actually not voting just serves to hurt yourself. Sunk costs fallacy again. You can't undo the names on the ballot that is the end result of all the political activism. You can't use your vote to change the policies of the candidates. If they get elected, they'll work to enact the platform they ran on. If they don't, the next time they run they'll build a platform based on what people are looking for at the time. Your vote can never change any of that. All it can do is determine which of two policy platforms get enacted right now. One of them will be better for you than the other. That's it.

I agree very strongly with this last bit. The trick is establishing the credibility of your threat while not losing sight of the end-goal. It's a difficult balance.
 
So is Crab going to make some threads over the two new national polls showing Clinton with huge leads? NBC and Gravis?

Stop being disingenuous with your poll making threads people.

He's not being disingenuous. Clinton being ahead isn't news because it's precisely what is expected. You don't get threads on "Average Events in Average Town". That's why running on inevitability can bit a candidate, their success doesn't generate news but their failures do.

GOP:

-Dixiecrats
-People that favor low taxes
-Super religious (non-Muslims)

Dems:

-Social Justice (which is some combination of LGBT, feminism, green, anti-racism, anti-war, anti-religion people that often disagree and fight)
-I'm in this party because the other side hates me because of my genitals or skin color.
-People that favor a welfare state


Are the groups I think of when I think of each party... I'm not sure one is more divided than the other, however.

The Right generally have an inherent cohesive advantage in that they all want to return to a Mythic Past, they just don't agree on what point in the past is Mythic. If you asked four different Social Justice groups what direction should be taken to achieve a good future you'd probably get 9 difference answers.
 
He's not being disingenuous. Clinton being ahead isn't news because it's precisely what is expected. You don't get threads on "Average Events in Average Town". That's why running on inevitability can bit a candidate, their success doesn't generate news but their failures do.

Maybe in the media, but you'd think this forum would be better than that kind of sensationalism. It also creates the thread wars where people post in response to other threads that don't cover the entire picture purposefully.

I'm tempted to do it right now just on principle. We deserve the entire picture, not cherry picked morsels.
 
I agree very strongly with this last bit. The trick is establishing the credibility of your threat while not losing sight of the end-goal. It's a difficult balance.

The way you establish the credibility of the threat is by sometimes following through. And it's very unlikely there's ever going to be a "good" opportunity to do so (one where it would be felt but not hurt your cause at all). Because being felt and not hurting your cause are largely mutually exclusive (unless you have some magical sense that allows you to know an upcoming victory margin so you can punish a candidate so much that they only win by an epsilon margin).
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Given that you were wrong about the movement in the poll, I'm wondering if you even bothered checking Gravis at all.

Honestly, not really, no. Their methodology is atrocious so I feel pretty secure ignoring them. If you want to pin your hopes on Gravis, I am legitimately 100% A-okay with that. You do that, little buddy.
 
Honestly, not really, no. Their methodology is atrocious so I feel pretty secure ignoring them. If you want to pin your hopes on Gravis, I am legitimately 100% A-okay with that. You do that, little buddy.

And NBC/SurveyMonkey? And PPP too?

Which pollsters don't you discredit when they don't go your way? You said you worked for YouGov for gods sakes, they're pretty low tier in my books.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
And NBC/SurveyMonkey? And PPP too?

Which pollsters don't you discredit when they don't go your way? You said you worked for YouGov for gods sakes, they're pretty low tier in my books.

No, I'm fine with SurveyMonkey. My main bugbears are PPP and Gravis. YouGOV are good, but they're not in my top tier - not low tier either. They're at the forefront of innovation in the polling industry so they tend to have more experimental methodology - sometimes that's good, sometimes bad.
 
No, I'm fine with SurveyMonkey. My main bugbears are PPP and Gravis. YouGOV are good, but they're not in my top tier - not low tier either. They're at the forefront of innovation in the polling industry so they tend to have more experimental methodology - sometimes that's good, sometimes bad.

Well, let's just hope Selzer comes out with satisfactory numbers for you or they might lose their coveted Crab accreditation.
 
Maybe in the media, but you'd think this forum would be better than that kind of sensationalism. It also creates the thread wars where people post in response to other threads that don't cover the entire picture purposefully.

I'm tempted to do it right now just on principle. We deserve the entire picture, not cherry picked morsels.

Do it, I'm surprised threads dedicated specifically to single polls are even still allowed but you might as well.
 
Idiotic generalizations like that are precisely why the GOP is still in power and owns 31/50 governorships and state legislatures, as well as the Senate and House.

The Dems need to stay the hell away from identity politics - the GOP will annihilate them if it comes down to that. The dems have the demographic advantage, but the GOP is just flat out ran better as a political engine in the vast majority of elections in this country vs the Dem party.

In other words, appealing to the "identity politics" of white working class people by moderating on gun laws is A-OK, but women, people of color, gay people, transgendered people, and basically, anybody else that's not a blue collar voter in a marginal Obama/Romney district should just sit down and shut up, because what you care about might offend the mythical working class voter.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Maybe in the media, but you'd think this forum would be better than that kind of sensationalism. It also creates the thread wars where people post in response to other threads that don't cover the entire picture purposefully.

I'm tempted to do it right now just on principle. We deserve the entire picture, not cherry picked morsels.


yup which ends up being Hillary/Bernie wars redux.

-I'm not voting for HIllary if bernie loses. May vote for Trump
-Bernie can't win
-Hillary is a hack, shrill, cant stand the women, fake etc.
-She's going to lose to Bernie like Obama etc
-Bernie supporters are PUMA's, crazy, like paulites, diet racist etc
 
In other words, appealing to the "identity politics" of white working class people by moderating on gun laws is A-OK, but women, people of color, gay people, transgendered people, and basically, anybody else that's not a blue collar voter in a marginal Obama/Romney district should just sit down and shut up, because what you care about might offend the mythical working class voter.

I think it's more that these issues are often presented in ways that are actively hostile to white working class people especially males. "Cis White Male" being used as a way of noting that an opinion should be discarded. That's not exactly a context that even remotely makes it seem like you're actually striving for equality.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
For the record, I disagree. You absolutely have to fight for minority issues, and you don't compromise them, ever. You just have to know your audience at the same time, and not make it the centrepoint of your campaign. That should *always* be economic stuff.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
For the record, I disagree. You absolutely have to fight for minority issues, and you don't compromise them, ever. You just have to know your audience at the same time, and not make it the centrepoint of your campaign. That should *always* be economic stuff.

Sure. That's a morally correct position. The thing is you need to offer something in return*. And that's where the centre-left has failed the working/lower middle class white workers. They've embraced identity politics which disadvantages these people compared to their prior position and they often nothing in return. In fact the centre-left has pretty much abandoned what they previously offered (minimum wages (recently re-embraced but at far below the rate of inflation), the legitimization of unions**,etc) for a double hit.

*You can also opt to sacrifice that vote but in that case you need to accept those consequences. That's how it works. You don't get to throw people under a bus and then complain that they dislike you because you threw them under a boss for the right reasons.

**This one is particularly bizarre. The Australian Greens often have a stronger support of unions in their platforms than the Australian Labor Party.
 
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