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[B-Dubs]

This may be out of place. But would anyone here be willing to look over an abstract (more of an outline of a essay I'm writing) about exploitation theory and Karl Marx?

Since we are talking about socialism and stuff.

I'll take a look if you want.

I'm kind of curious, has Chelsea Clinton ever said one way or another whether she ever intends to seek elected office?

Dunno, everyone's assuming she will at some point though.

 

[Iolo]

I'm kind of curious, has Chelsea Clinton ever said one way or another whether she ever intends to seek elected office?

Haven't you heard, she's going to be VP.

 

[Konka]

Clinton / Kennedy '16.

 

[Teggy]

Carson wants to get rid of Roe vs Wade. Lol.

Isn't this essentially true of all the R candidates? The guy is crazy, but it's not like this stands out.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Isn't this essentially true of all the R candidates? The guy is crazy, but it's not like this stands out.

Todd Akin should have just waited a few years and then run for president.

 

[shinra-bansho]

First soulless VP.

Spoiler

I'm kidding. Don't kill me.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Clinton / Kennedy '16.

He should succeed Warren or Markey in the Senate in like 12 years.

 

[HylianTom]

Joe Trippi has tweeted this interesting graphic:

Hm.

 

[Coriolanus]

Clinton / Kennedy '16.

That looks like the other side of plastic surgery gone amok.

The usual facet being donatella versace and company, obv.

 

[Iolo]

Carson wants to get rid of Roe vs Wade. Lol.

Would be a good debate question, to see if Rubio restates this position

 

[brainchild]

Except most of the liberals who do agree with him on policy are not lining up behind him. Hillary beats him amongst self-identified liberals.

People do not vote on policy, especially in primaries which is even more personality driven than general elections. This is something Bernie fans don't seem to understand.

You can't keep pushing POLICY POLICY POLICY which Bernie for some reason keeps doing. No one cares about that for the most part in primaries.

I agree. He's going about this completely the wrong way, which is why I'm now convinced that he doesn't really care about getting elected. This campaign is just a huge platform to push his social democracy agenda (even though he calls it democratic socialism). I do believe it is a good cause, and I support it, but I find it difficult to believe that Bernie is running to actually become POTUS.

I just find that mindset of his so patently wrong that it frustrates me to see this opportunity get squandered. He's completely confusing support of commonplace populist policies with support for socialism*. You don't have to be a socialist* to support more affordable college tuition, increased banking regulations, criminal justice overhaul, etc. That's why Hillary is able to mop the floor with him because she can just mimic the same populist positions for different reasons and then he's got nothing to distinguish himself unless he more openly advocates for an alternative worldview. And if the debate is any indication of his ability to do that, I don't slot him as being much more effective at it than the Occupy Wall Street stuff.

And the bolded is exactly the problem that turns off so many people from his campaign and supporters. It's this logic that the only reason people aren't supporting him is because of self-delusion or ignorance; 'you support Bernie already you just don't know it yet'. That's inherently demeaning and is what leads to so many bad encounters where his supporters try to teach people what they believe.

*or whatever word we think should be used*

The semantics don't bother me that much. The truth is that there is no one standard definition of socialism, and the US obviously practices it by way of the many government-based provisions and services that we have today. Many people are fine with it, and would like to see these services expanded. Personally, I don't care what it's called, as long as our country continues to benefit from it. Same with the rest of issues his platform addresses.

I do find the notion implying that 'anyone who doesn't support Bernie is ignorant' to be absurd and demeaning, and that anyone pushing that narrative should be called out on it, but to be fair to Bernie, that isn't what he's saying. He isn't saying that people who don't support him actually do, but that he believes most Americans agree with him and once they realize that (by Bernie gaining exposure so that they can discover him and his ideas), they'll support him. He may still be wrong, but it's not the same as him calling them ignorant. Some of his supporters on the other hand...

 

[Coriolanus]

Joe Trippi has tweeted this interesting graphic:
Hm.

It's pretty much exactly what one hopes to get from the second candidate during a primary.

I mean, i'd be sad af if i saw one of these graphs for someone and "can win the general" scored higher than anything else by wide margens.

 

[SL128]

I don't really know why Sanders is going to make educating the people about socialism a plank of his campaign. Or why he even keeps referring to himself as such. Sanders isn't really a socialist anyway, for the most part. He's just a very liberal social democrat; with a few tendencies towards a democratic socialist control of production of things like healthcare.

EDIT: Oh I missed that post before when I was writing this, but yes, I basically concur. A social democrat is not a democratic socialist, and for the most part Sanders follows capitalist economics.
Interesting. Reminds me of break up the big banks as some sort of solution. These slogans seem to be rallying cries that preach to the already converted but that don't actually address the underlying problem.

Since he can't win, he might as well try to make socialism less taboo.

 

[brainchild]

Joe Trippi has tweeted this interesting graphic:

Hm.

Not even his supporters expect him to become president. LOL

The good thing is this that this may be our first solid indication that Bernie supporters (not the extremists of course) will vote for Hillary on election day. If they never expected him to win, they must be hoping that he'll make their vote for Hillary more palatable.

 

[B-Dubs]

I agree. He's going about this completely the wrong way, which is why I'm now convinced that he doesn't really care about getting elected. This campaign is just a huge platform to push his social democracy agenda (even though he calls it democratic socialism. I do believe it is a good cause, and I support it, but I find it difficult to believe that Bernie is running to actually become POTUS.

This is honestly what I thought was happening when he announced. I feel like he didn't count on the rest of the field being so pathetic though. Normally he'd be a B or C+ tier candidate, jockeying for position with three or four other guys but Hillary scared the rest of those candidates off.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Clinton / Kennedy '16.

I feel like electing Conan wouldn't pan out, long-term.

 

[HylianTom]

It's pretty much exactly what one hopes to get from the second candidate during a primary.

I mean, i'd be sad af if i saw one of these graphs for someone and "can win the general" scored higher than anything else by wide margens.

I didn't expect a majority (or even a sizeable plurality), but I would've thought it'd be a little bit higher, given how often we hear about the need for a revolution that's based on bringing surges of voters to the polls.

 

[Coriolanus]

I'm kinda really liking that pet theory from the other day that Sanders will drop from the prez race to enter the Vermont gubernatorial race.

I didn't expect a majority (or even a sizeable plurality), but I would've thought it'd be a little bit higher, given how often we hear about the need for a revolution that's based on bringing surges of voters to the polls.

That it isn't higher is A Good Thing. Means they ain't delusional.
Which, y'know, kinda goes against what some poligaf users like to say about sanders supporters.

But yeah, it should poll at near zero for him in this cycle. After all, if that's the thing that most attracts one to a candidate, then Hills is the only choice.

 

[pigeon]

How do you define exclusion as justice? What if hypothetically 100 years from now we create a system/program that "rehabilitates" a convict within 10 minutes? Will you be ok if that person is let out after 10 minutes?.

Sure, why not? If they're rehabilitated in 10 minutes, presumably there's no chance that they'll commit another crime (that's what rehabilitation means). And they probably feel pretty terrible about what they did now that they're normal productive citizens. So what benefit do we get, as a society, from keeping them in prison?

I mean, I think this hypothetical is pretty hypothetical. What would it even mean to rehabilitate someone instantaneously? It sounds like a mind wipe to me. But sure, if we can make murderers into normal people, I would say that should be what we do every time.

 

[NeoXChaos]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/u...ives-home-hillary-clintons-focus-on-iowa.html

But Democrats got a reminder that Mr. Sanders, an independent and self-described democratic socialist, is not a member of their party. As Mrs. Clinton began her remarks well into the evening, hundreds of his supporters left the building to catch waiting buses or attend parties. It offended the polite sensibilities of some Iowans, and was a reminder of why he may find it difficult to appeal to the sort of mainline party activists who have backed the eventual Democratic nominee in all the contested caucuses here since 2000.

“Are the Sanders folks going to walk out on the Democrats if he’s not the nominee?” John Deeth, a liberal blogger from Iowa City, pointedly asked on his way out of the dinner.

Unlike Mrs. Clinton and Martin O’Malley, the other Democratic presidential candidate at the dinner, Mr. Sanders offered no homage, or mention at all, of Mr. Biden, a well-liked figure in the party. And he delivered a speech that he could have given in any state, making little attempt to highlight Iowa issues. Mrs. Clinton, conversely, paid homage to Iowa Democrats by name and attacked Iowa Republicans on health care.

Mr. Sanders signaled on Saturday night that he was prepared to fight. He is said to have hired a pollster for the first time this campaign, and repeatedly struck notes about areas where Mrs. Clinton has changed positions. Mrs. Clinton’s advisers are girding for a better-prepared version of Mr. Sanders in the next debate.

But while Mr. Sanders did use his remarks to portray the Clintons as inconsistent progressives, he could not bring himself to confront her directly the way she confronted him in their debate this month. Nor did he raise the issue of gun control, which Mrs. Clinton and Mr. O’Malley discussed and which polls show could hurt Mr. Sanders in Iowa. (Mrs. Clinton’s Iowa brochure now includes “Acting on Gun Violence” as one of four issue priorities.)

A Clinton triumph in Iowa could hasten the end of the Democratic primary season. Even if Mr. Sanders won in New Hampshire, the Clinton forces would seek to frame that victory as an anomaly resulting from his hailing from a neighboring state and New Hampshire’s traditional affection for insurgents.

The political dynamic that has elevated Iowa, the state that haunted Mrs. Clinton’s White House ambitions eight years ago, could now pave her way to the nomination. The difference now, say Mrs. Clinton’s supporters, is that “she’s not running against Obama,” as Iowa’s attorney general, Tom Miller, put it. “That was a magical campaign eight years ago.”

 

[FiggyCal]

Sure.

I'll take a look if you want.



Dunno, everyone's assuming she will at some point though.

I pm'd you guys. Please be gentle.

 

[brainchild]

This is honestly what I thought was happening when he announced. I feel like he didn't count on the rest of the field being so pathetic though. Normally he'd be a B or C+ tier candidate, jockeying for position with three or four other guys but Hillary scared the rest of those candidates off.

That's a good point. I think it worked out better for him this way though. Not in the sense that it increases his chances of winning, but that it's giving him more exposure than he normally would have received at this point.

I'm kinda really liking that pet theory from the other day that Sanders will drop from the prez race to enter the Vermont gubernatorial race.



That it isn't higher is A Good Thing. Means they ain't delusional.
Which, y'know, kinda goes against what some poligaf users like to say about sanders supporters.

But yeah, it should poll at near zero for him in this cycle. After all, if that's the thing that most attracts one to a candidate, then Hills is the only choice.

That poll is making the vocal Bernie supporters look like manic trolls.

Also, Bernie needs to stay in the Senate if he's not running for president. He's done a lot of good work in there so far.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Joe Trippi has tweeted this interesting graphic:

Hm.

I'm shocked its that low. That has to be a troll number right?

 

[dramatis]

Indeed, clothes do serve as a political tool—but only when women are wearing them.

A little history may be helpful here. Women were forbidden from wearing pantsuits on the floor of the Senate until 1993, thanks to a policy that sought to keep women from wearing the pants (literally) in a space they shared with male peers. At long last, senators Barbara Mikulski and Carol Moseley Braun (the first woman of color to be elected to the Senate) stopped waiting for permission and rebelled by wearing pantsuits anyway.

Until 1993. Wow.

In any case, thinking about it I'm rather happy that nobody talked about what Hillary was wearing or what Fiorina was wearing, other than the usual fashion rags I suppose.

 

[Gotchaye]

I'm shocked its that low. That has to be a troll number right?

The columns sum to 100% - people were choosing which of those were the reason they support Sanders. Nobody supports Sanders because all they care about is beating the Republican.

 

[B-Dubs]

That's a good point. I think it worked out better for him this way though. Not in the sense that it increases his chances of winning, but that it's giving him more exposure than he normally would have received at this point.

I don't necessarily think that's a good thing though, if you're running the type of campaign he is you don't really want to be painted as the main challenger. That adds a whole dynamic to the campaign that doesn't really help.

I pm'd you guys. Please be gentle.

It looks like an interesting essay.

 

[Lucky Forward]

I'm kind of curious, has Chelsea Clinton ever said one way or another whether she ever intends to seek elected office?

Chelsea Clinton exists in a weird twilight of being simultaneously sheltered and in the spotlight:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...925f90-2a45-11e5-a250-42bd812efc09_story.html

She isn’t quite a celebrity. Or a philanthropist. Or a politician, though let’s not rule that out. Now serving as vice chair of her family’s foundation, she has reinvented herself as a champion of uncontroversial causes, her life an endless string of grand entrances, polite speeches, photo-ops — after which she retreats to her eight-figure Manhattan condominium, expecting the media and the public to preserve the boundaries she has cherished since childhood. Polished, practiced and private, Chelsea Clinton is the closest thing America has to a princess.

“It’s just great to see,” one middle-aged woman in the audience said. “She’s really come into her own.”

Yes, she has — but then again, she is 35 years old.

Will she run for office someday? She told CNN, Fast Company, Sky News, Fortune and the “Today” show, “Right now I live in a city and a state and a country where I support my elected officials.” If that were to change, “then I’d have to ask and answer that question.”

Even her recent book signings have been tightly managed:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...oks-and-thats-about-it-at-politics-and-prose/

First off, there will be no remarks from the author, let alone a Q&A session that might knock the forever-on-message Clinton off her talking points (causing potential headaches for her mom Hillary’s presidential campaign). And don’t even bother bringing that glossy pic for her to ink — the author will not be signing any “memorabilia or photos,” only copies of her book, handlers warn.

Furthermore, “Photographs of Chelsea Clinton will be allowed from a designated area. There will be no posed photographs.”

I don't know how she'd ever handle the rough-and-tumble of a political campaign where she has to *gasp* answer questions and take a possibly controversial stand on issues.

 

[Coriolanus]

That poll is making the vocal Bernie supporters look like manic trolls.

Also, Bernie needs to stay in the Senate if he's not running for president. He's done a lot of good work in there so far.

Vocal bernie supporters make vocal bernie supporters look like manic trolls.

Also Bernie can do sweet fuckall in the senate as it currently stands. He can do far more, and with far more concrete impact, as a governor. Ain't like his seat is gonna get picked up by a republican.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Ben Carson wants to abolish Medicare - I want to save it and Social Security.

From Trump.

Finally, he figured out an attack point he can use. He's got this now.

 

[B-Dubs]

From Trump.

Finally, he figured out an attack point he can use. He's got this now.

It certainly took him long enough.

 

[Manmademan]

From Trump.

Finally, he figured out an attack point he can use. He's got this now.

To be fair, carson has so many insane things to choose from, its hard to pick just one

 

[FiggyCal]

I don't necessarily think that's a good thing though, if you're running the type of campaign he is you don't really want to be painted as the main challenger. That adds a whole dynamic to the campaign that doesn't really help.



It looks like an interesting essay.

Thanks. It's going to be a long one... so I wanted a pretty decent start.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

To be fair, carson has so many insane things to choose from, its hard to pick just one

Most of Carson's position are well-liked among the people Trump needs, Carson's Medicare and Social Security positions are certainly not. Taking this on is much more simple than attacking Carson's faith.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Hmm, just from a quick look at the 2012 demographics for the Repub caucuses, to see how much traction this attack line could gain there.

57% identified as evangelical.
68% were 45 or over. (26% 65+)

Also, I don't know at what earning threshold people would be less concerned about having government funded healthcare as a senior citizen in the US. But 67% earned more than $50K per annum.

 

[dabig2]

From Trump.

Finally, he figured out an attack point he can use. He's got this now.

Someone should next ask Trump how he's going to "save" these progressive and socialist concepts.

But I do dig the attack. Say hello to another fun GOP debate question in a couple days. Trump is many things, but I appreciate him bringing up Bush and neoconservative hypocrisy regarding 9/11 and Iraq/Afghanistan fuckups and now talking about how he's going to secure socialist institutions.

 

[Konka]

Someone should next ask Trump how he's going to "save" these progressive and socialist concepts.

But I do dig the attack. Say hello to another fun GOP debate question in a couple days. Trump is many things, but I appreciate him bringing up Bush and neoconservative hypocrisy regarding 9/11 and Iraq/Afghanistan fuckups and now talking about how he's going to secure socialist institutions.

Good management. He'll bring in the best people to manage them. Not the idiots currently running them.

 

[Coriolanus]

But I do dig the attack. Say hello to another fun GOP debate question in a couple days. Trump is many things, but I appreciate him bringing up Bush and neoconservative hypocrisy regarding 9/11 and Iraq/Afghanistan fuckups and now talking about how he's going to secure socialist institutions.

If he ends up being the one bastard that brings up the army to counter any argument about bububu sochulizm i'll seriously lose my mind.

 

[Y2Kev]

Carson's popularity doesn't seem to be attributed to any policy or substantive thing, so I don't think attacking him for some thing will matter much. I mean, why do people like Trump? Why would he think the rules don't apply to Carson?

 

[Dan]

Reading up on Rubio's pathetic attempts at spinning his ignoring of the Senate as not only still being responsible but also a better way to serve his constituents. Palin would be proud.

 

[Republic of Ezo]

I mean his "democratic socialism" isn't democratic socialism either for the most part. It's social democracy. And regardless of what he says on the debate stage he's mostly a capitalist.

Yes. Social Democracy is not the same as Democratic Socialism. The former I think most democrats are in favor of, the latter not so much.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

this is a real picture of Rubios lead digital strategist

 

[brainchild]

The columns sum to 100% - people were choosing which of those were the reason they support Sanders. Nobody supports Sanders because all they care about is beating the Republican.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense.

I don't necessarily think that's a good thing though, if you're running the type of campaign he is you don't really want to be painted as the main challenger. That adds a whole dynamic to the campaign that doesn't really help.

You're right, there are risks that could negatively affect the perception of his views, but I think shifting the political discussion in that direction (not just socialism, but also his staunch opposition to money in politics) is important, and I'd rather the country be thinking about it than not.

Vocal bernie supporters make vocal bernie supporters look like manic trolls.

Also Bernie can do sweet fuckall in the senate as it currently stands. He can do far more, and with far more concrete impact, as a governor. Ain't like his seat is gonna get picked up by a republican.

I'm just saying, when you compare and contrast them, the vocal supporters look that much worse.

Also, while Bernie may have a more material impact as governor, that impact is limited in scope. Almost all impact he makes as a Senator is inherently more evenly distributed throughout all of the states. Also, from his latest report card:

- Ranked 2nd most progressive among all ranking members of the Senate (7th among all senators)

- In the top 10% among all senators for getting bills introduced

- In the top 15% among all senators for getting bills out of committee

- In the top 25% among senators serving 10+ years for getting laws enacted

- In the top 20% among all senators for Leadership Score (defined by a senator's ability to get cosponsors on bills)

Bernie's 2014 report card

Obviously not your average senator, and when you factor in his speeches/debates on the senate floor and committee sessions, his absence would be felt. Whoever replaces him has some pretty big shoes to fill in.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/u...ives-home-hillary-clintons-focus-on-iowa.html

I think I've made it clear that I'm a big backer of party over candidate so this kinda stuff annoys me to no end.


Political parties are the best way to organize around concrete attainable policy goals. This just shows me theres a kind of cult of personality around sanders

 

[dabig2]

Carson's popularity doesn't seem to be attributed to any policy or substantive thing, so I don't think attacking him for some thing will matter much. I mean, why do people like Trump? Why would he think the rules don't apply to Carson?

I disagree. The argument can be made that Carson is indeed "generic Republican" because everything he says and does is under the radar and thus people can define him however they want contrary to what he actually says and believes. He's invisible at debates and just isn't out there in the media like the others.

So the way you get him is to get him on the record. He doesn't have even a fraction of Trump's charisma to try to explain or walk back his insane ideas, so when challenged, he's going to stumble hard. And it's clear that this is Trump's idea. He wants to define Carson out of the gate and frame him as a not serious nutjob who wants to take grandad's medicare and social security. W Bush even at his most charismatic and after the entire country was ballwashing him was pushed down hard for his social security "fix". And Carson wants to go even further by just outright abolishing it?

Trump has the right idea.

 

[Lucky Forward]

this is a real picture of Rubios lead digital strategist

He'd fit right in on Downton Abbey.

 

[And_Gignac]

Are you kidding me? He'd be eaten alive in the general! All they'd have to do is play an ad with him saying the dumb as fuck shit he's said up til now and it would be a blow out? How in the name of god is he even remotely electable?

He is polling just well enough, even when you would think his outrageous claims should be enough to destroy anyone´s chances. Never underestimate the power of evangelicals.

From Trump.

Finally, he figured out an attack point he can use. He's got this now.

He will save the State from itself! Literally Hitler.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Rubio gives up on Senate: ‘He hates it’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2015/10/25/28cfaff0-6d59-11e5-9bfe-e59f5e244f92_story.html

 

[HylianTom]

This might come in handy later:
Hillary laughing for 10 hours

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Rubio gives up on Senate: ‘He hates it’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2015/10/25/28cfaff0-6d59-11e5-9bfe-e59f5e244f92_story.html

On Tuesday, he cast a vote, his first in 26 days. He gave a floor speech, his first in 41 days. In the speech, he asked the Senate to pass a bill that would give VA leaders more power to remove poor-performing employees. But it didn’t happen. To pass something so suddenly, Senate rules required that every single senator agree. A Democrat, Sen. Richard Blumenthal (Conn.), objected that Rubio’s bill did not allow workers due process.

“Unfortunately, we will not be able to move forward on this today, it appears,” Rubio said, as his gambit failed. With that, he was done for the week, missing the next three votes.

Impressive guy.

 

[FiggyCal]

Rubio gives up on Senate: ‘He hates it’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2015/10/25/28cfaff0-6d59-11e5-9bfe-e59f5e244f92_story.html

That's bold.