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[User 406]

Dramatis putting in work.

The intersectionality in this thread really needs to improve.

 

[Jenov]

When people try to sit you down and tell you to vote for her because she's a woman, then your better believe that person has a right to bring up why they would disagree with that!


Had you actually accounted for the context surrounding the quote, you'd understand why he brought it up.

I did, the context of the quote was that Hillary supposedly doesn't have any social policy -- ONLY A UTERUS AND THAT'S NOT ENOUGH!

It's bullshit.

Hillary does have social policy, and she's spoken about parts of it at every single debate.

Attack the policy directly. If Hillary isn't going far enough on a particular area, then call that out. You don't accuse her of having bad policy and then say it's because she's pushing her vagina out as her only qualifier. That's vulgar and sexist.

 

[Teggy]

During a campaign rally in Beaufort, South Carolina, the former Florida governor responded to criticism from Republican presidential rival Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) that he didn't have enough foreign policy experience to be President.

"For someone who has no experience at all to suggest I don't, having lived overseas, having worked overseas, developing relationships with leaders overseas, being governor of the fourth largest state and being a commander-in-chief of the Florida National Guard," Bush said. "With all due respect, Senator Rubio, your four years or five years or whatever it is as senator does not match up to my capabilities of understanding how the world works."

.

 

[brainchild]

A renowned feminist is not allowed to criticize a female candidate (or by extension close supporters) for making the case that her sex increases her electability? His mentioning it was to respond to certain peoples claim that women voting for Bernie are somehow betraying Feminism.

This is actually probably a more accurate assessment of the intentionality behind his statements than what I surmised.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

The thing Cruz is doing wrong is he is trying to go after Trump on ideology. But Trump's support is not ideological I think. In return, Trump gets to say all kinds of things that get a lot of media play.

The only real way for any non-Trump right now is to make it a 1-1 contest. Going after Trump is a mistake, haven't folks learnt that already?

 

[SenorArdilla]

He's still blaming CNN for the Carson thing too.

CNN is part of the lieberal media after all.

At this rate, Clinton will win the nomination and face off against Trump in the general.

 

[brainchild]

I did, the context of the quote was that Hillary supposedly doesn't have any social policy -- ONLY A UTERUS AND THAT'S NOT ENOUGH!

It's bullshit.

Hillary does have social policy, and she's spoken about parts of it at every single debate.

Attack the policy directly. If Hillary isn't going far enough on a particular area, then call that out. You don't accuse her of having bad policy and then say it's because she's pushing her vagina out as her only qualifier. That's vulgar and sexist.

He never said any of this and your post is full of shit. If you can't be bothered to actually listen to what he said, I can't be bothered to explain it anymore than I already have.

 

[RustyNails]

This is actually probably a more accurate assessment of the intentionality behind his statements than what I surmised.

So much ball washing for bernie. Political scientist Dr. Killer Mike's (PhD) nuanced critique of Hillary's proto-feminism theology via a neo-feminist's own words about woman's anatomy with regards to higher social justice platform in American politics.

 

[brainchild]

So much ball washing for bernie. Political scientist Dr. Killer Mike's (PhD) nuanced critique of Hillary's proto-feminism theology via a neo-feminist's own words about woman's anatomy with regards to higher social justice platform in American politics.

Call it what you want. I've seen worse with some Hillary supporters.

 

[Macho Madness]

What a difference a year makes: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0LM06F20150218

 

[Poodlestrike]

He never said any of this and your post is full of shit. If you can't be bothered to actually listen to what he said, I can't be bothered to explain it anymore than I already have.

I think there's basically a concern over coded language here. The words Killer Mike (and the woman he's quoting) used are benign enough, but within the greater context of the attacks on Hillary (e.g. Bernie supporters claiming that people are only voting for her because she's a woman, that she should just shut up about being a woman, etc.) it takes on some uglier undertones.

 

[RustyNails]

Call it what you want. I've seen worse with some Hillary supporters.

Who will Dr. Killer Mike (PhD) deconstruct next with his razor sharp, incisive theorems on gender-politic identities?

 

[Jenov]

A renowned feminist is not allowed to criticize a female candidate (or by extension close supporters) for making the case that her sex increases her electability? His mentioning it was to respond to certain peoples claim that women voting for Bernie are somehow betraying Feminism.

So what if her sex increases her electability??? Penises have dominated the presidency for all US History. We've never had a female president, so for a lot of people that's appealing, and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Good for Hillary, she's worked hard enough to both have a qualifying resume AND do so without having a penis. It's a fucking rarity.

But you don't turn around and yell a speech about her sex organ and claim that THAT was the only thing that was qualifying her -- disingenuous and plain mean.

 

[HylianTom]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

 

[B-Dubs]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

Oh well I do declare!

 

[gutter_trash]

Trump being more ''liberal'' also opens up his tent to blue collar uneducated people from BOTH parties

Cruz is limited only to crazy religious nutters. And even Trump is stealing some religious nutters from Cruz

Bush and Rubio are both establishment and neocon but there seems to be a backlash towards the Dubya types because we see nutters going to Cruz while the angry going to Trump

 

[brainchild]

I think there's basically a concern over coded language here. The words Killer Mike (and the woman he's quoting) used are benign enough, but within the greater context of the attacks on Hillary (e.g. Bernie supporters claiming that people are only voting for her because she's a woman, that she should just shut up about being a woman, etc.) it takes on some uglier undertones.

And I'd call that concern trolling, but it'd be a hell of a better argument than what we're getting now!

Who will Dr. Killer Mike (PhD) deconstruct next with his razor sharp, incisive theorems on gender-politic identities?

In all honesty, I'll give you props for the wit. Can't even hate, I chuckled a bit.

 

[Slayven]

Except Hillary Clinton is qualified, because the qualification stated was "have policy reflective of social justice", and that's exactly what she has. You weren't reading my post, nor were you trying to look at the issue from a different perspective, you straight up just staked out a defensive position.

So the complaint boils down to "stop talking about your uterus, it doesn't qualify you for the presidency". The implication is that "women running for president should not talk about how they are women, as it's not really a qualification". I think it is, because the amount of shit women have to deal with being in the public sphere is far harsher and shittier than what any man has to deal with in the public sphere. The qualification of being a 'uterus' and getting to this stage is that said 'uterus' is tougher, stronger, and harder working than a penis candidate can claim to be.

Women get criticized for talking about being women, they get criticized for not talking about being women, they get criticized for talking too much or too little. There's no way out of it. And you're thinking about this with the idea that this is an "imaginary attack on women" when he specifically used a female body part to represent women? That the casual dropping of this is not sexist? That Hillary hasn't proven herself throughout all these decades, so she shouldn't sell her 'uterus' as an argument for her superior women's rights record? It's unconscious, it looks okay from a shallow analysis, but when you think about it, why isn't being a woman an argument for superior qualifications, especially now when women are still not equal to men? Why isn't being a woman at the presidential campaign level an example of willpower, endurance, and ability? Why isn't a female president a symbol of change? Why isn't a female candidate supposed to promote what her 'uterus' means for other 'uteri'? Why is this all discredited because the candidate is a woman that you or Killer Mike or Snowman don't support?

Oh right. Because she's Hillary Clinton and she's not Elizabeth Warren, so selectively "Hillary being a uterus" is not equal to "Elizabeth Warren being a woman".

You can try to use Elizabeth Warren as a 'shutdown shield', doesn't change the fact that Hillary qualifies with or without said description of who would 'really' qualify for the presidency. Your argument is basically "I'm not being sexist about Hillary Clinton, my best friend is female!" Surely you can think of something better. Your statement is about as much of a shut down as Jeb trying to attack Trump.

Hot fire.

And killer mike should know better,

 

[PBY]

Trump being more ''liberal'' also opens up his tent to steel blue collar uneducated people from BOTH parties

Cruz is limited only to crazy religious nutters. And even Trump is stealing some religious nutters from Cruz

Bush and Rubio are both establishment and neocon but there seems to be a backlash towards the Dubya types because we see nutters going to Cruz while the angry going to Trump

I think Trump is really positioning himself as the "Hey, I'm just a regular tell-it-like-it-is joe. The GOP hates me and so does the DNC, but I'm for the fucking people."

Like... taking shots at W, supporting-ish PP...

 

[User 463088]

Regardless of what Killer Mike meant, he needs to shut the fuck up about it not double down on Twitter. This is a problem Bernie's campaign (and some Bernie supporters) have had. They fail to understand how optics impacts message. When you have to start explaining something, you're losing. When you have to say "What he really meant was..." No. People do not follow issues like that. I understand what he was getting at, however, how he went about it is the problem. That reads as a sexist attack. I'm not saying he is sexist, but the optics on that shit are just terrible. At the very least, that can be admitted, right?

 

[Poodlestrike]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

I believe I'm feeling the vapors, my oh my!

And I'd call that concern trolling, but it'd be a hell of a better argument than what we're getting now!

It's not trolling, it's just... the truth, I guess. Hillary's sex has informed her political career, as well as the rest of her life. That's true of everyone, but the higher up the food chain you get, the more being a woman becomes an issue, a struggle. I don't know if telling her to stop talking about it is sexist or just damn rude, but it's not okay either way.

 

[brainchild]

Regardless of what Killer Mike meant, he needs to shut the fuck up about it. This is a problem Bernie's campaign (and some Bernie supporters) have had. They fail to understand how optics impacts message. When you have to start explaining something, you're losing. When you have to say "What he really meant was..." No. People do not follow issues like that. I understand what he was getting at, however, how he went about it is the problem. That reads as a sexist attack. I'm not saying he is sexist, but the optics on that shit are just terrible. At the very least, that can be admitted, right?

Likewise, Hillary supporters need to shut the fuck up with accusing everyone of sexism the moment they criticize Hillary's qualifications. Oh no, wait, you don't need to shut up, it's a free fucking country and you can say whatever the fuck you want...

 

[Cheebo]

So post-SC it is looking like the only 3 remaining GOP Candidates will be Trump, Cruz, & Rubio.

 

[Suikoguy]

Likewise, Hillary supporters need to shut the fuck up with accusing everyone of sexism the moment they criticize Hillary's qualifications. Oh no, wait, you don't need to shut up, it's a free fucking country and you can say whatever the fuck you want...

You will need to quote some examples of this. Or perhaps it's just not a problem on this board?

 

[RastaMentality]

So post-SC it is looking like the only 3 remaining GOP Candidates will be Trump, Cruz, & Rubio.

Why wouldn't Kasich stay in until Ohio? I doubt Carson drops out either.

 

[brainchild]

I believe I'm feeling the vapors, my oh my!



It's not trolling, it's just... the truth, I guess. Hillary's sex has informed her political career, as well as the rest of her life. That's true of everyone, but the higher up the food chain you get, the more being a woman becomes an issue, a struggle. I don't know if telling her to stop talking about it is sexist or just damn rude, but it's not okay either way.

He never said that and that was never his point.

You will need to quote some examples of this. Or perhaps it's just not a problem on this board?

Have a gander at the last few pages.

 

[Third Strike]

So post-SC it is looking like the only 3 remaining GOP Candidates will be Trump, Cruz, & Rubio.

We need Bush to stay until after Super Tuesday. Fragment votes between him and Rubio.

 

[B-Dubs]

We need Bush to stay until after Super Tuesday. Fragment votes between him and Rubio.

Bush isn't leaving until Florida.

 

[User 463088]

Likewise, Hillary supporters need to shut the fuck up with accusing everyone of sexism the moment they criticize Hillary's qualifications. Oh no, wait, you don't need to shut up, it's a free fucking country and you can say whatever the fuck you want...

I'm speaking from the perspective of helping his candidate. He's double downed on it on Twitter. That's where he needs to shut the eff up about it. It's not going to help Bernie, and has a very real potential to hurt him. Bernie's people have decided to thrust him into the spotlight because of how few surrogates they actually have. They need to get him on message, or deal with the repercussions of what he's saying.

And, come on now, you cannot legitimately believe that Hillary is not the target of sexist attacks. Not everything is sexist, of course, but a lot of people, including a lot on GAF, fall back to sexist attacks to be critical of her.

You don't believe her social justice platform is strong enough? Awesome. Hit her on it. But don't bring up her freaking vagina because it gives the appearance of sexism. Politics is about optics just as much as it is about policy positions. My mom heard the Killer Mike thing, and as a woman, her first response was "that sounds sexist." Women have heard shit like this their entire lives. You (and not you specifically but the universal you) have to be smarter about language and perception.

Why do you think things like "that one" were a problem? There are racial and sexist under tones in a lot of shit. We can't just pretend they don't exist because Bernie Sanders.

 

[Jenov]

He never said that and that was never his point.

We're hearing different speeches then. Or maybe, different people are taking away a different context and, like has been pointed out, it's very bad optics to be mentioning someones private parts in a list of reasons of why they are or are not qualified enough.

 

[gutter_trash]

Bush isn't leaving until Florida.

he is sticking around until the end with the wishful thinking that it would end up as brokered convention

 

[Elaugaufein]

The thing Cruz is doing wrong is he is trying to go after Trump on ideology. But Trump's support is not ideological I think. In return, Trump gets to say all kinds of things that get a lot of media play.

The only real way for any non-Trump right now is to make it a 1-1 contest. Going after Trump is a mistake, haven't folks learnt that already?

I don't think its right to say Trumps supporters aren't ideological. They just aren't ideological in the way that "conservative" or Republican is defined in America, you can't go after him for being insufficiently Republican because his supporters don't care. I also don't think they belong to a single ideology, he's got Nativists/Nationalists and MRAs and though there's some overlap those are still distinct groups. You can certainly think of things that Trump could say to harm his support because they clash with those ideologies.

 

[B-Dubs]

he is sticking around until the end with the wishful thinking that it would end up as brokered convention

If Rubio beats him in Florida I can't imagine his donors sticking around.

 

[Y2Kev]

Brokered convention is only going to be caused by sore loser Jeb bush with his three delegates. What a big fat mess.

 

[Basileus777]

So post-SC it is looking like the only 3 remaining GOP Candidates will be Trump, Cruz, & Rubio.

Kasich is not dropping out, he's already been campaigning in Michigan. I doubt Jeb does either. I could actually see no one dropping out after SC with Carson riding it out until they kick him out of the debates.

 

[brainchild]

I'm speaking from the perspective of helping his candidate. He's double downed on it on Twitter. That's where he needs to shut the eff up about it. It's not going to help Bernie, and has a very real potential to hurt him. Bernie's people have decided to thrust him into the spotlight because of how few surrogates they actually have. They need to get him on message, or deal with the repercussions of what he's saying.

And, come on now, you cannot legitimately believe that Hillary is not the target of sexist attacks. Not everything is sexist, of course, but a lot of people, including a lot on GAF, fall back to sexist attacks to be critical of her.

You don't believe her social justice platform is strong enough? Awesome. Hit her on it. But don't bring up her freaking vagina because it gives the appearance of sexism. Politics is about optics just as much as it is about policy positions. My mom heard the Killer Mike thing, and as a woman, her first response was "that sounds sexist." Women have heard shit like this their entire lives. You (and not you specifically but the universal you) have to be smarter about language and perception.

Why do you think things like "that one" were a problem? There are racial and sexist under tones in a lot of shit. We can't just pretend they don't exist because Bernie Sanders.

In fairness, I'll agree with you that for the sake of optics, Killer Mike should be more cognizant of the negative impact that his words could have on Bernie's candidacy. But that's only because he's pretty much a surrogate.

As for Bernie's supporters, they're free to say whatever they want. Bernie will never be able to control them so there's not much that can be done about that. They don't work for him.

 

[Plinko]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

And yet the party will continue to do the exact same thing it has done for years.

 

[BoboBrazil]

Carson drops after South Carolina. I don't think any of the others will.

 

[Y2Kev]

Carson drops after South Carolina. I don't think any of the others will.

He will be out of the debates so yeah.

 

[SquashMatch]

Treading lightly and I will admit I have not read the whole thread.....i know GAF leans left pretty heavily but is there room for a respectful right wing poster in here? If sso......Hello!!

 

[CCS]

Treading lightly and I will admit I have not read the whole thread.....i know GAF leans left pretty heavily but is there room for a respectful right wing poster in here? If sso......Hello!!

HOW DARE YOU? GET OUT!!!

Spoiler

\s

Good to have you, welcome

 

[PBY]

Treading lightly and I will admit I have not read the whole thread.....i know GAF leans left pretty heavily but is there room for a respectful right wing poster in here? If sso......Hello!!

Actually very curious who is your candidate of choice from the GOP field.

 

[The Technomancer]

Treading lightly and I will admit I have not read the whole thread.....i know GAF leans left pretty heavily but is there room for a respectful right wing poster in here? If sso......Hello!!

Depends on in just what ways you're right wing.

If its about economics and the role of government and such, well, expect some arguing but yeah you're pretty welcome, we've got a couple others.

If its because of opinions about gay people and such there may not be a way to express it that meets the standards of "respectful" here

Regardless, welcome

 

[Slayven]

Brokered convention is only going to be caused by sore loser Jeb bush with his three delegates. What a big fat mess.

Is Jeb your nemesis?

 

[User 463088]

Is Jeb your nemesis?

Oh, come on, that's not fair.

Jeb! is no one's nemesis. Who'd bother?

 

[BoboBrazil]

He will be out of the debates so yeah.

Are they droppibg to 5 for the next one? Speaking of debates, Jeb really needs to stop thinking about Trump and start attacking Rubio if he wants to be the establishment choice.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Treading lightly and I will admit I have not read the whole thread.....i know GAF leans left pretty heavily but is there room for a respectful right wing poster in here? If sso......Hello!!

Didn't you read the thread title? Welcome!

 

[Brawndo Addict]

No matter what you'll get dog piled so be ready for that. Just remember you don't have an obligation to respond to anyone. Respond to discourse you respect and ignore the low level sniping.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Depends on in just what ways you're right wing.

If its about economics and the role of government and such, well, expect some arguing but yeah you're pretty welcome, we've got a couple others.

If its because of opinions about gay people and such there may not be a way to express it that meets the standards of "respectful" here

Regardless, welcome

Pretty much this. Economically conservative, we've got people much further out than that, socially conservative... might be trickier.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

It's a non-sequitur because his specific criteria for an ideal social justice platform has nothing to do with Hillary's uterus, and vice-versa.

He brought up her gender because as he was comparing the candidates, he noted that some have brought up her gender as reason to vote for her, so he then rebutted that with a quote from Jane Elliott (also a woman, BTW) who said that 'having a uterus doesn't [automatically] qualify you for president.

It was a tangent and not the crux of his message, nor did it have anything to do with his comments on social justice, which is actually the relevant part of his CRITERIA, so yes, I'd say that your post was, and still is, a non-sequitur.

The speaker, or a third party, doesn't get to decide which part of his speech the audience responds to. The fact that Killer Mike decided to reduce the candidate he doesn't like to a body part in an aside, and not as the central part of his argument, isn't my problem. You're taking the fact that his argument was poorly structured and using that as a tool to negate any criticism of it. I am under no moral or ethical obligation to only respond to part of his argument that you feel has merit.

As an aside, for a supposed liberal you sure are willing to play the old, if a woman says it, its not sexism card. Of course, since this isn't a tangent, and not my central argument, any response from you is a non-sequitur, I guess.