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PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black

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M

mackaveli

Member
Black Mamba said:
So the prevailing theory on al gore was that he didn't hug bill clinton enough. Do we throw that out the window since Hillary hugged the fuck out of Obama?

I mostly agree with crab. I think you have to nominate someone charismatic and somewhat perceived as an outsider. This doesn't mean not a politician.
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I think we just have to promise shit that has no chance of ever happening but just do it anyways and hope the media gives you a free pass.

Clinton was too realistic in her plans while Sanders was unrealistic but sold it better so it inspired people and rallied people.

Democrats need a battle cry to get pumped about. Trump had jobs jobs jobs even though none of his promises would happen it sounded better and gave people talking points.

Clinton was too much of a policy wonk where no one cared about the details and just wanted a 140 tweet of what it was.
 
D

Debirudog

Member
i really hope the DNC cleans itself a bit more eventhough a lot of their emails aren't really as evil or dirty as people are making themselves out to be. I'm also afraid about russialeaks though. They disgust me.

As much as I hate to say it, any sense of bad optics is going to turn people off.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Y2Kev said:
These people don't really exist. I mean there was like one of them out of 20 that ran this year and Trump was the one. Outsiders with the exposure and charisma to do this?

I take it you don't think this race had anything to do with ideology-- that is, no one cares about left or right, just along class lines. I'm worried about the left getting too... left.
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I don't think this race had much to do with ideology, no, or at least, not the conventional left/right. Only academics really think that way. Most people have pretty incoherent sets of beliefs that only weakly map to left and right, and are often prone to competition along other dimensions. In this election, literally the entire political spectrum was considered discredited, left or right - people hate conventional Democrats and Republicans. So the main dimension of competition was how unconventional you could be - the less conventionally left or right you were, the better. That will probably be the main dimension for a while to come.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
JetBlackPanda said:
More Santorum truth bombs "these people don't want a govt hand out they want a job or a promise of a job" they understand those voters in those states and we didn't.

Ps. Fuck rick
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I can guarantee those rural white dipshits who voted for Trump that Santorum is talking about are on some sort of government subsidy.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I thought she was charismatic, but then what can I say, I like listening to people intelligently explain why they have qualified knowledge on a subject, so fuck me right?
 
B

Bowdz

Member
Phased said:
So much of it lands on the new Democratic party that emerges after this.

They need to get rid of the fossils. The old Clinton loyalists that have it by a stranglehold. If Dem turnout this year tells us anything it's that Democrats are flat out unenthused with our party if Obama isn't the nominee.

I think if we run a good candidate and we clean house internally we'll get the turnout we need from people who are legitimately excited again.

Most of all though, Democrats need to grow a goddamn spine and not allow themselves to get pushed around so much.
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Agreed.

I wasn't completely sold on the DNC "rigging" the primary for Clinton considering she won by 3 million more votes, but at this point, we need to take this opportunity to completely clean house. I'm curious to see what the official DNC-post mortem is, but my gut reaction is clean house, dump the superdelegate system, move to open primaries across the board with same day registration and just open the whole system up. Result would hopefully be give the DNC as clean a reputation as possible and help the party bring in independents.
 
P

plagiarize

Banned
bplewis24 said:
It's really not. And unless we want to move forward with some real takeaways from this election cycle, it's time to stop living in delusion and having a Democratic Echo Chamber. Having a conservative echo chamber is damaging enough to our country.
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I believe we lost, because we ignored rural voters.
I promise that I will not support Hillary Clinton for President in 2020 (easy to do since she isn't going to run).

Now. Please tell me what delusion I need to give up and how that delusion is preventing us from moving forwards.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I'm not as pessimistic as many in here for this reason: Trump wants people to like him. Him enacting numerous policies that would turn people against him would eat at him like nothing else. To be fair to him, he actually sounded reasonable when up against the other republicans in the primaries. He said things that appealed to the people. I don't necessarily think that goes away instantly because of Pence/Ryan/etc.
 
sazzy

sazzy

Member
Oh look, now that the election is over, CNN is finally talking about the policies a Republican government is going to push...
 
D

Drakeon

Member
UltimaPooh said:
HilGAF.

They ate her up.
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Not true, certainly not all of us. I was a supporter from Day 1, but I never felt she was charismatic. I was legitimately worried that the likes of Warren and Biden were not running and simply going to let her run uncontested (protip: never do this in the future democrats, Obama proved this in 08, it's never anyone's turn, and it always benefits to have a contested primary to actually find the strongest candidate). To be fair, maybe Warren never wanted the job, but we can be pretty sure Biden did.
 
B

Bowdz

Member
The Technomancer said:
I thought she was charismatic, but then what can I say, I like listening to people intelligently explain why they have qualified knowledge on a subject, so fuck me right?
Click to expand...

We've got a deep bench of charismatic political amateurs tbh: George Clooney, Kanye West, Jon Stewart...
 
T

thefro

Member
Plinko said:
I'm not as pessimistic as many in here for this reason: Trump wants people to like him. Him enacting numerous policies that would turn people against him would eat at him like nothing else. To be fair to him, he actually sounded reasonable when up against the other republicans in the primaries. He said things that appealed to the people. I don't necessarily think that goes away instantly because of Pence/Ryan/etc.
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Yeah, his ego wants his poll numbers to be good and the TV to say how great he is.

I think the only real passion he has is to be tough on crime and "populist" on trade (and obviously being in favor of the boilerplate pro-business Republican stuff, but we can survive that).
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Nafai1123 said:
Liking a candidate doesn't preclude people from acknowledging their faults. She is not charismatic, but she would've been a good POTUS.
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To be fair, some on here wouldn't admit her faults. If somebody brought one up, they were criticized.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
FiggyCal said:
Who would you say is a charismatic woman politician? Because I personally found Elizabeth Warren immediately liable when I first heard her speak.
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I don't know. I have no answer.

Warren sounds too much like a shrill professor talking down to the voters she'd need I'm afraid.

I don't know. I'm an urban white liberal. I apparently know nothing about non urban Midwest working whites. I learned that much last night.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
Trickster said:
As a european I am curious about the House and Senate of the american government. Basically from what I thought I understood of american politics, you can't pass something through these places, even if one side has 50% of the votes? Don't they need something like 60%, or how exactly does this work?

I'm curious because right now a lot of people are bringing up the fact that the GOP now controls everything basically.
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The House works by pure majority, but the Senate has this thing called the filibuster where one Senator can stand and talk forever about literally anything to block legislation from coming to a vote and you need 60 votes to approve shutting that Senator up to then vote, after which you just need a majority.
 
K

kess

Member
Forrest Lukas is an animal rights disaster, and wants to open up public lands for oil drilling? I hope Teddy Roosevelt walks out of Mount Rushmore.
 
Z

Ziltoidia 9

Member
This election day was like The Phantom Menace. We all thought it was a sure in, but when it finally came, it was down hill from the first act.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Plinko said:
I'm not as pessimistic as many in here for this reason: Trump wants people to like him. Him enacting numerous policies that would turn people against him would eat at him like nothing else. To be fair to him, he actually sounded reasonable when up against the other republicans in the primaries. He said things that appealed to the people. I don't necessarily think that goes away instantly because of Pence/Ryan/etc.
Click to expand...
I'm with you on this

Despite all the rhetoric from him, I don't think this will be anything more than Bush part II. And we survived that.

I think if he catches wind something will hurt his popularity with his voting base he'll stop it.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Plinko said:
That's why I separated it with periods. It isn't a sentence.
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LOL ok

Flawed. Was. Unlikeably. She.

You clearly meant she was gravely flawed because she was so unlikable! I was just teasing but your response is too much!
 
B

bplewis24

Neo Member
Isaac Otherworld said:
Yeah Warren and Bernie aren't cool people the way Obama and Bill Clinton are, but being unapologetic and fiery about what you support is better than being an ashamed of being a liberal saying "Oh boy I can't wait to work with Republicans because they're so right about everything."

Because that shit has lost so many winnable seats for democratic candidates every year since 2006.
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Completely agree. One thing that still pisses me off about 2014 is that so many candidates ran away from Obama. Sure, maybe some of them would have lost by more if they admitted they would vote for Obama or liked the ACA, but in the long run is depresses voter turnout. People don't just want to be on a winning team, they want to be able to root passionately for said team. They don't want to apologize for it.
 
C

chadskin

Member
ACLU: https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-fre...ents-his-proposed-policies-well-see-him-court
This morning, Donald J. Trump was elected the 45th president of the United States, and the ACLU has a message for him.

President-elect Trump, as you assume the nation’s highest office, we urge you to reconsider and change course on certain campaign promises you have made. These include your plan to amass a deportation force to remove 11 million undocumented immigrants; ban the entry of Muslims into our country and aggressively surveil them; punish women for accessing abortion; reauthorize waterboarding and other forms of torture; and change our nation’s libel laws and restrict freedom of expression.

These proposals are not simply un-American and wrong-headed, they are unlawful and unconstitutional. They violate the First, Fourth, Fifth, Eighth, and 14th Amendments. If you do not reverse course and instead endeavor to make these campaign promises a reality, you will have to contend with the full firepower of the ACLU at every step. Our staff of litigators and activists in every state, thousands of volunteers and millions of card-carrying members and supporters are ready to fight against any encroachment on our cherished freedoms and rights.

One thing is certain: We will be eternally vigilant every single day of your presidency. And when you leave the Oval Office, we will do the same with your successor as we have done throughout our nearly 100 years of existence. The Constitution and the rule of law are stronger than any one person, and we will see to that. We will never waver.
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Freedom of the Press: https://freedom.press/blog/2016/11/...t-donald-trump-enemy-press-freedom-winning-us
Donald J. Trump, now the official President elect, is an enemy of press freedom unlike any we have seen in modern presidential history.

In the past 18 months alone, he has threatened to sue newspapers or journalists over a dozen times and said he will attempt to “open up libel laws” as president to make it easier to take newspapers to court. He has attacked and insulted members of the media almost daily and blacklisted countless news outlets over the course of his campaign. He has blamed “freedom of the press” for a terrorist attack in New York and has said the press has “too much protection” under the First Amendment. And much more.

In short, before he even has taken office, he has waged war against the free speech protections guaranteed under the Constitution at a truly historic pace.

We may be in for the biggest press freedom fight of our lives for the next 4 years. The fight may be hard, and it may be long, but we want you to know: Every threat, every lawsuit, every subpoena, every prosecution, we will be there holding Trump accountable and upholding the First Amendment.

But we are also going to need your help more than ever. Never has our nation faced such a grave threat to First Amendment rights and freedom of the press. If you care about the future of our country and an independent media, please donate today.
Click to expand...
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Plinko said:
I'm not as pessimistic as many in here for this reason: Trump wants people to like him. Him enacting numerous policies that would turn people against him would eat at him like nothing else. To be fair to him, he actually sounded reasonable when up against the other republicans in the primaries. He said things that appealed to the people. I don't necessarily think that goes away instantly because of Pence/Ryan/etc.
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Even if you're right, who is to say he'll do the necessary work to figure it out instead of rubber stamping Ryan?
 
M

Measley

Junior Member
balladofwindfishes said:
I'm with you on this

Despite all the rhetoric from him, I don't think this will be anything more than Bush part II. And we survived that.

I think if he catches wind something will hurt his popularity with his voting base he'll stop it.
Click to expand...

Only problem with that is that his base are deplorables.
 
C

Cesare Borgia

Banned
Y2Kev said:
OK, but Obama didn't have to put black issues in the limelight because his identity took care of any need for identity politics. Let's be real-- there was a lot of noise about "he's not really black" or "he's not black enough" but black people made sure to support the first black president. I don't think a white person (especially one with Hillary's history) can afford that.

So question for me is:

1. do you nominate a black man again to leverage the strength of the AA community and have him reach out to poor white people to reverse trump's gains, or

2. do you nominate a centrist / triangulator who will talk exclusively about classically democratic things (Bill Clinton 2.0)? Basically a GOP lite - racism + taxes on wealthy + anti trade / focus on jobs. No mention of social justice, criminal justice, social issues. the appeal to white people is built in but do you risk lower minority turnout?

I think this was a wakeup call about how big 70% of an electorate actually is.

Not sure the country is like 1992 anymore but also I'm not unconvinced that 8 years of a black president radicalized rural white voters and sent them into a voting frenzy
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Nominating a black person doesn't magically win over black people or leverage the community. You need a candidate who can build coalitions across multiple demographics, not just racial. You need someone who excites young people, someone the activist/organizational base loves, someone who enough white people can tolerate or give a chance. Basically we're describing Barack Obama, and no one like that is on the horizon.

Which means we're going back to the days of finding a candidate who patch together just enough of multiple groups and communities to win the nomination - and whether he can hold it in a general election will remain to be seen.

Who is going to lead the opposition to Trump, and be the voice? Not talking about Shumer or Pelosi. It's going to be a senator, a congressman, a mayor, a governor, somebody. Trump is a small, bitter enough person to directly engage with someone in banter/attacks. That's who I want to know about.
 
S

Snake

Member
wutwutwut said:
The Obama approval ratings are a lie.
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This is a truly idiotic thought some of you seem to be deluding yourselves with. Bill Clinton's approval rating was high in 2000 and Gore lost narrowly. Barack Obama's approval rating was high in 2016 and Clinton lost narrowly. Even if you "unskew" the polls as much as Trump beat them nationally, Obama is still positive. And that's not remotely something you can do, it's a leap in logic based entirely on you currently having a depressed state of mind.

The fact of the matter is that Al Gore was not Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton was not Barack Obama. If there was any doubt before, and there shouldn't have been, it is now clear that you can't expect a talented politician's charisma and success to carry another person to the White House.

It was always conceivable that Republicans would win the Presidency in this election based solely on the fact that we've had two terms of a Democrat in office. It's just a shame that Republicans had to nominate Donald Trump.
 
P

plagiarize

Banned
Plinko said:
I'm not as pessimistic as many in here for this reason: Trump wants people to like him. Him enacting numerous policies that would turn people against him would eat at him like nothing else. To be fair to him, he actually sounded reasonable when up against the other republicans in the primaries. He said things that appealed to the people. I don't necessarily think that goes away instantly because of Pence/Ryan/etc.
Click to expand...

Which is great if global warming isn't real, you didn't want a liberal supreme court, and you aren't a minority.

balladofwindfishes said:
I'm with you on this

Despite all the rhetoric from him, I don't think this will be anything more than Bush part II. And we survived that.

I think if he catches wind something will hurt his popularity with his voting base he'll stop it.
Click to expand...

If Bush Jr was President Elect right now with THIS congress and THIS house, and was about to implement the same cabinet Trump is... I would be much more concerned than I was at any point between 2000 and 2008.
 
I

ido

Member
Is there any data showing the number of minority votes and not just exit polling percentages of the total vote?

I'm asking because it's clear Hillary lost because liberals didn't show up. Over 6 million of them if you compare the turn-out to 2012. Of those 6 million, is it reasonably safe to assume these are white liberals? Did minorities, for the most part, vote? And if so, is there data to support this right now?

Thanks in advance.
 
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