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[Grief.exe]

God I'm nuuuuuuumb.

I snapped out of my numbness yesterday, felt dead for 24 hours.

Anger hasn't manifested yet.

Ok let's ignore everyone who voted for Trump and pretend they are all racists. All of them. I think there's an argument that this is actually true.

That still doesn't explain the participation rate with Democrats. And it's not because we didn't appeal to racists. It's because we didn't appeal to them at all!

Why are people fighting this notion so much? I am a liberal that works for a bank and lives in a city. I have never ever considered not having health insurance and I don't even know what I pay for it. I have more computers in my apartment than I have rooms. I go to the dentist twice a year. I own more suits than there are days of the week. This is not bragging-- this is me saying that appealing to these people is the LAST thing I want to do. We have nothing in common. Nothing they care about is important to me at all. But, that said, I realize now they're a big voting block and we have to try. If we don't try, we won't win. Ever! Well at least for like another 50 years.

We also explicitly care about these people via policy concerns, health care, middle out economics, and safety nets for these people.

Yet they consistently vote outside of their best interet

I'm on the same page, we need to find better ways of communicating with these people.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

But they need to know

1) How bad Trump and his policies are for them and their family/friends, and how the GOP won't help. If they're lifelong Dems who switched in 2016 then they need to know that the Dems will listen, and get them to switch back. Before the midterms (even if not really relevant) would be a good point to send out feelers and start listening to responses/concerns. Targeted messages about retraining and drug overdoses need to be pushed out.

2) They need to know that they're not part of the Deplorables. Even if they are, they need to be made to feel welcome. Diet racists who can stomach the Dems if they get them into work, or deal with all the heroin.

Which is why you nominate someone with charisma whose able to explain these things

If Hillary was able to articulate how Democrats will help these people get their lives back to "normal" she'd be in a lot better shape. Trump controlled the message the entire election. Hillary was hopelessly flailing around trying everything to wrestle the attention away. And failed every time.

Calling these people "deplorables" was a terrible, terrible, awful, campaign ending move. It was 100%, without a doubt, identical to Romney's 27% comment. But the liberal bubble went "rah rah, this is great, Hillary is awesome. You show them!" except "them" in this case might have been potential Democrat voters who you now just insulted.

 

[Leninpest]

*removed*

 

[Wilsongt]

I snapped out of my numbness yesterday, felt dead for 24 hours.

Anger hasn't manifested yet.

I've had to replace it all with humour...

 

[Nelo Ice]

Looks like the US might enter into some unholy partnership with Russia, Syria, and Israel.

Oh boy.

I'm not sure how we'll survive 4 years. So much permanent damage will be done here and abroad.

 

[Nordicus]

I snapped out of my numbness yesterday, felt dead for 24 hours.

Anger hasn't manifested yet.

Read a few more stories of school kids crying thinking they'll be deported out of the country.

You'll go super saiyan

 

[Grief.exe]

I've had to replace it all with humour...

...and whsikey

Read a few more stories of school kids crying thinking they'll be deported out of the country.

You'll go super saiyan

My emotions are always delayed. A useful response when in a bad situation, but now I'm going to have to travel through these range of emotions at a slower pace.

I know I'm going to get better and angry long term. Also a reason I don't see our country repairing this damage.

 

[Thaedolus]

Man I'm still numb. Still hard to muster any productivity

 

[shinra-bansho]

So, the votes come back because...?
Protectionism isn't going to create a resurgent rust belt.
Start mining more coal again, maybe you can win WV.

Whose fault is that?

Spoiler

Capitalists

Rather technology.

In part trade liberalisation. A recent analysis indicates about 1 million manufacturing jobs lost due to trade with China over the decade after its ascension to the WTO. Another 1.4 million related industries jobs.

But manufacturing employment was declining before NAFTA, and before PNTR. And it will continue to decline. Despite that manufacturing output may grow, and has doubled over the last few decades.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Yo, scientifically almost everyone has racial prejudices and literally no one is saying appeal to racist ideals to win people over, you just have to treat them as humans. In fact, you may even make reasonable people less racist in the process. You won't if you automatically put them into a basket of deplorables.

That just...what?

They are people. They just are people that hate me. By appealing to them through supporting their wants and desires, to see me under their boot, I do not convert them. I am empowering an ideology that will have me in chains. This election was lost on complacency and the desire for some pure candidate that embodied left ideals that were further than most moderates would be willing to go. What I mean is the far left abandoned the Democratic party to make a statement. The statement they made was fuck the world.

The racists coalesced around the idea they'd get the 50s back. Look at that. They could agree to get along with the corporatists to accomplish something. Why can't the fucking liberals get with the some progress is better than no progress idea is beyond me

 

[sphagnum]

Ok let's ignore everyone who voted for Trump and pretend they are all racists. All of them. I think there's an argument that this is actually true.

That still doesn't explain the participation rate with Democrats. And it's not because we didn't appeal to racists. It's because we didn't appeal to them at all!

Why are people fighting this notion so much? I am a liberal that works for a bank and lives in a city. I have never ever considered not having health insurance and I don't even know what I pay for it. I have more computers in my apartment than I have rooms. I go to the dentist twice a year. I own more suits than there are days of the week. This is not bragging-- this is me saying that appealing to these people is the LAST thing I want to do. We have nothing in common. Nothing they care about is important to me at all. But, that said, I realize now they're a big voting block and we have to try. If we don't try, we won't win. Ever! Well at least for like another 50 years.

Not wanting to try to peel off white working class voters and instead just purely being a party that focuses on everything BUT them is just as dumb as only focusing on economics and not minority issues, which we have (rightly) heard time and time again as a criticism of some Sanders fans. But there has been this strain we've seen pop up on GAF multiple times in this past year saying "fuck them, they're racist, they deserve nothing".

People like to call themselves pragmatists until it means they have to compromise too.

 

[Zackat]

Maybe not take shit for granted and pick the second most disliked candidate in history.


God I'm nuuuuuuumb.

Yeah I don't think it has fully sunk in yet. When I see the orange man getting sworn in is where I will probably freak out.

Actually just thinking about that makes me anxious.

 

[Cat]

All of this is assuming that politics in general normalizes again. With this large of a division, this much anger and acceleration, can we even assume a normal democratic election in four years time?

Maybe it is just because I am deathly afraid, but I am still having a hard time seeing the republic recover from this. I really am.

Not to deepen that fear, but I have doubts Trump will cede power as gracefully as Obama.

Yeah, I don't know. My mind's been wondering and fearing similar things.

Normally I don't think I'd say this, but if there's any legal challenge to Trump's presidency I want Obama to push it. Anything with Russia. Anything with voter suppression. Goddamnit if there's anything credible don't just fucking roll over on this one

I agree.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Yo, scientifically almost everyone has racial prejudices and literally no one is saying appeal to racist ideals to win people over, you just have to treat them as humans. In fact, you may even make reasonable people less racist in the process. You won't if you automatically put them into a basket of deplorables.

I will not negotiate with people that want me subjugated or dead. End of story.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

I think the real litmus test for how racist the WWC is will be if Trump does nothing substantive for them -- tax cuts, deregulation, symbolic things that screw over minorities and immigrants, etc. -- and they STILL turn out in 2020 for that agenda. Given that that's exactly what's happened in the tea party-run states like WI, KS, I think it is safe to say that the WWC cohort that's voting GOP is more driven by racial resentment and scapegoating than economic insecurity. And while New Deal-style economic programs may help the WWC, they don't convince them to vote Democrat.

 

[sphagnum]

So, the votes come back because...?Rather technology.

In part trade liberalisation. A recent analysis indicates about 1 million manufacturing jobs lost due to trade with China over the decade after its ascension to the WTO. Another 1.4 million related industries jobs.

But manufacturing employment was declining before NAFTA, and before PNTR. And it will continue to decline. Despite that manufacturing output may grow, and has doubled over the last few decades.

I'm referring to the capitalists controlling the means of production, and therefore being able to relocate labor or eliminate it with automation without taking into account the input of the workers themselves. If the workers controlled the means of production, sure, they might still do these things because of technological advances, and hopefully they would - that's the goal of socialism, to reduce necessary labor democratically. But they'd be in control of how to do it and how to reap the benefits.

 

[Frank the Great]

I think Democrats also need to figure out a way to combat the right wing media machine. Fox and talk radio are going to spend four years praising Trump (no matter what happens in reality), and there is no equivalent on the Democratic side. Most white people get their news and opinions from these sources, which is why they all hate Hillary so much.

There needs to be a massive, concerted campaign to label Trump a conman and Republican stooge. Like, starting in January. Something like targeted internet ads maybe too. Every time he does something to help a bank, Wall Street, a telecom company, oil company, etc. it needs to be plastered the fuck everywhere and drilled into everyone's heads on a constant basis.

In other words, we need to start a campaign against Trump's performance just like what the Republicans did so successfully to Hillary. We made fun of them for constantly saying Benghazi and emails but that shit works. Trump is currently just a populist idea that appeals to people . . . That imaginary Trump needs to be crushed.

 

[Crocodile]

We also explicitly care about these people via policy concerns, health care, middle out economics, and safety nets for these people.

Yet they consistently vote outside of their best interest

I'm on the same page, we need to find better ways of communicating with these people.

Unless their best interests is returning to an ideal 1950's world they may have never experienced or because they actively think minorities/LGBT people are taking their jobs/culture.

That's what I've come to realize when I think about how some people vote for Republicans. The Republican establishment may not have their financial interests at heart but if you prioritize culture (either in nostalgic idealistic ways or outright bigoted ways) then voting Republican is the right choice.

 

[shinra-bansho]

But what are you going to appeal to them with.

This time around it was racist, xenophobic nationalism.

Economic populism in what form, is supposed to bring these voters back.

Because you're not bringing back those jobs.

I'm referring to the capitalists controlling the means of production, and therefore being able to relocate labor or eliminate it with automation without taking into account the input of the workers themselves. If the workers controlled the means of production, sure, they might still do these things because of technological advances, and hopefully they would - that's the goal of socislism, to reduce necessary labor democratically. But they'd be in control of how to do it and how to reap the benefits.

We don't live in socialist dream world. No one does. Even Scandinavian utopia.

I'm talking about the reality that automation and improved efficiency have eliminated manufacturing work. Trade and comparative advantage of developing economies have too. But the former more than the latter from last I read.

 

[Pixieking]

Which is why you nominate someone with charisma whose able to explain these things

Nooooooooooo!

*sigh* Still not convinced of this, but let's agree to disagree, and go a different way.

Surrogates: Michelle Obama, Tim Kaine, Barack Obama.

Who there appeals to WWC/rural voter? Honestly, even if they aren't racist, that's two African-Americans, and a white dude who speaks Spanish.

Coming around slightly to your point, I think VP should be hella charismatic. Tim Kaine was a lovable guy (I suppose? Felt so bad for him at the press conference yesterday, almost in tears). But he appealed to people because he spoke Spanish, and that's not a thing that WWC/rural care about (in fact, it may work against him).

Just because the Presidential nominee isn't charismatic, doesn't mean everything is lost. Not everything has to revolve around Hillary. And, again, this sounds like politics 101 - place your message with the right messenger in the right place.

But what are you going to appeal to them with.

This time around it was racist, xenophobic nationalism.

Economic populism in what form, is supposed to bring these voters back.

Because you're not bringing back those jobs.

I would've loved to have heard more about how Hillary was going to make the US number one in renewable energy, because I think she was planning on retraining a lot of the coal miners (and factory workers?) to run alongside that. But, no, those jobs aren't coming back. So why not educate the voter on that, and give them options.

I'd love a post campaign ad during next year's super-bowl: Rust Belt, we heard your concerns. Those jobs you had are lost to automation, and they are never coming back. Trump has lied to you. But write to your Democratic lawmakers and we will help you. Barack Obama voice-over, or maybe Biden.

 

[dramatis]

One of the worst things that the Clinton campaign did was unleash the narratives that Bernie was running both a sexist and racist campaign. The alienation a lot of progressive democrats felt from that was extremely evident.

The Hillary campaign only rebuked the Sanders campaign once for sexism, when Tad Devine and Jeff Weaver shot their shit. They were campaign managers, so they should have properly been rebuked.

If the Hillary campaign is supposedly responsible for the 'narratives' that Sanders was running a sexist and racist campaign, then I wonder if you would also condemn the Sanders campaign for unleashing the narrative of a rigged primary that poisoned Democratic unity.

 

[benjipwns]

Hey, you guys are ruining the forum, so stop it:

Fully agree OP. Off Topic is a festering dump with incredible hatred. I personally blame Poli-GAF, as it seems to be leading the charge with vitriol and shame.

 

[Grief.exe]

Unless their best interests is returning to an ideal 1950's world they may have never experienced or because they actively think minorities/LGBT people are taking their jobs/culture.

That's what I've come to realize when I think about how some people vote for Republicans. The Republican establishment may not have their financial interests at heart but if you prioritize culture (either in nostalgic idealistic ways or outright bigoted ways) then voting Republican is the right choice.

How fragile must your worldview be that the mere presence of brown and gay people cause you extreme discomfort?

 

[Paches]

John fucking Bolton as potential Secretary of State.

May God have mercy on our souls.

 

[Leninpest]

I will not negotiate with people that want me subjugated or dead. End of story.

That just...what?

They are people. They just are people that hate me. By appealing to them through supporting their wants and desires, to see me under their boot, I do not convert them. I am empowering an ideology that will have me in chains. This election was lost on complacency and the desire for some pure candidate that embodied left ideals that were further than most moderates would be willing to go. What I mean is the far left abandoned the Democratic party to make a statement. The statement they made was fuck the world.

The racists coalesced around the idea they'd get the 50s back. Look at that. They could agree to get along with the corporatists to accomplish something. Why can't the fucking liberals get with the some progress is better than no progress idea is beyond me

I agree with both of these statements. I'll remove my comment.

 

[War Peaceman]

But what are you going to appeal to them with.

This time around it was racist, xenophobic nationalism.

Economic populism in what form, is supposed to bring these voters back.

Because you're not bringing back those jobs.
We don't live in socialist dream world. No one does. Even Scandinavian utopia.

I'm talking about the reality that automation and improved efficiency have eliminated manufacturing work.

Exactly. Trump won their vote by lying. That isn't an answer.

 

[Doc Holliday]

That just...what?

They are people. They just are people that hate me. By appealing to them through supporting their wants and desires, to see me under their boot, I do not convert them. I am empowering an ideology that will have me in chains. This election was lost on complacency and the desire for some pure candidate that embodied left ideals that were further than most moderates would be willing to go. What I mean is the far left abandoned the Democratic party to make a statement. The statement they made was fuck the world.

The racists coalesced around the idea they'd get the 50s back. Look at that. They could agree to get along with the corporatists to accomplish something. Why can't the fucking liberals get with the some progress is better than no progress idea is beyond me

Damn you posted my thoughts exactly.

Trump supporters whether they are racists or not voted for someone who is clearly racist and xenophobic by his own words. If he does or doesn't do the things he said he would doesn't matter. He made those promises and his supporters voted on that premise.

You don't get to wash your hands clean from that.

As for liberals who didn't care enough to vote, don't cry when marriage equality goes under fire again.

Don't cry when your cool interracial friends start feeling unwelcomed or worse in danger.

Don't cry when cable cutting is a little more expensive lolb

 

[benjipwns]

John fucking Bolton as potential Secretary of State.

May God have mercy on our souls.

I maintain he's better than Newt.

 

[A Serious Man]

Anytime I find myself alone with my thoughts, I start feeling sick again. Trump's potential cabinet list isn't helping.

 

[SamVimes]

I will not negotiate with people that want me subjugated or dead. End of story.

This would make more sense if you had to take away votes from Trump's side to win. You didn't, you had to keep the people that have been democrats for 30 years interested in voting.

edit: nevermind I thought you were quoting a different post

 

[Grief.exe]

Hey, you guys are ruining the forum, so stop it:
Fully agree OP. Off Topic is a festering dump with incredible hatred. I personally blame Poli-GAF, as it seems to be leading the charge with vitriol and shame.

If someone feels that way, come in and present your argument. I'm done fucking coddling these ideologies.

 

[Cheebo]

I maintain he's better than Newt.

No he is way worse than Newt.

 

[Bronx-Man]

I agree with both of these statements. I'll remove my comment.

No, it's fine. It's just.........ugh.

We've entered a world that should've been dead and buried decades ago. I'm scared as hell right now, almost every minority group is.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I think the real litmus test for how racist the WWC is will be if Trump does nothing substantive for them -- tax cuts, deregulation, symbolic things that screw over minorities and immigrants, etc. -- and they STILL turn out in 2020 for that agenda. Given that that's exactly what's happened in the tea party-run states like WI, KS, I think it is safe to say that the WWC cohort that's voting GOP is more driven by racial resentment and scapegoating than economic insecurity. And while New Deal-style economic programs may help the WWC, they don't convince them to vote Democrat.

Hillary lost a chunk of the WWC vote that Obama won. A rather large chunk. Enough to possibly sway the election. These voters are obviously not racist enough that it's the main thing they vote on, because they voted for Obama.

Trump did the age old strategy of being super wealthy and elite, but being able to talk and act like he was a "regular" person. We saw it with Bush. We saw it with Trump. It's an old strategy that works every single time. It worked for FDR. It worked for Kennedy. It worked for Reagan. It works. Meanwhile, we had Hillary hiding Wall Street speeches, talking about how TPP was great a few years ago, making loads of money, and making no actual attempt to connect to people because she wasn't really great at giving speeches.

 

[sphagnum]

But what are you going to appeal to them with.

This time around it was racist, xenophobic nationalism.

Economic populism in what form, is supposed to bring these voters back.

Because you're not bringing back those jobs.

I know that.

I'm explaining why you guys should have listened to us in the first place instead of pretending there wouldn't be a big backlash.

I'm stuck as much as the rest of the people in this thread, but I think even going full New Deal and making up jobs for the time being can help until we get ideas like UBI out there. And I would, of course, prefer something further along than that but I know the public won't go for literal socialism at this time.

We don't live in socialist dream world. No one does. Even Scandinavian utopia.

I'm talking about the reality that automation and improved efficiency have eliminated manufacturing work. Trade and comparative advantage of developing economies have too. But the former more than the latter from last I read.

You are putting efficiency over the pain that it causes hunans. That is the problem. You think that us getting cool gadgets from Japan cheaper or whatever is a fine tradeoff when these people are saying that they are dying.

You have to make a compromise!

 

[Wilsongt]

Hey, you guys are ruining the forum, so stop it:

If you are going to post about someone dragging PoliGAF at least have the balls to post who it is. This really isn't a time to be stirring up shit, Benji. Not when nerves are still very exposed and raw.

 

[metalslimer]

I don't know why, maybe it's the weather, but I've felt a nice surge in fight in me. Things are going to get bad, and I don't think saying things will be fine does anyone good, but I'm not going to let depression, rage, and anxiety control me for years. Though people in here are going to continue to bicker about the minutiae of why this happened, I just wanted to say thanks to poligaf because I know we all want the same thing in the end even if we disagree on how to get there.

 

[shinra-bansho]

So other than I told you so, basically just create old economy jobs is the best answer people have. That doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[Hydrophobic]

I maintain he's better than Newt.

I'm really terrified that our bar for some cabinet positions is 'better than Newt Gingrich'.

 

[Psychoward]

No, it's fine. It's just.........ugh.

We've entered a world that should've been dead and buried decades ago. I'm scared as hell right now, almost every minority group is.

Yeah,worrying about abortion being up to the state's, gay marriage being up to the state's, religious liberty laws that allow discrimination, stop and frisk laws.... this shit shouldn't be worries that people are having in America in 2016.


I'm sorry Jeb!, please come back to us bb

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I really hate that I'm turning against someone I supported for years to be president (I wanted her over Obama in 2008!), but I really, truly believe, looking at the data we have, that this election was 100% her fault and she was entirely unelectable (as anyone can see by my recent posts). And that she ran a bad campaign and made a ton of mistakes that cost her the election. And that I ignored the warning signs that were all over because I just really liked her and really disliked Sanders.

 

[The Technomancer]

So basically just create old economy jobs is the best answer people have. That doesn't inspire confidence.

The more I look at the numbers the more I think the answer really just is "drive up turnout you lazy motherfuckers"

christ I can't believe Democrats didn't turn out for this one

 

[Leninpest]

No, it's fine. It's just.........ugh.

We've entered a world that should've been dead and buried decades ago. I'm scared as hell right now, almost every minority group is.

I think the racism that Trump has now normalized is the absolute worst thing of this election. The stories about school children being harassed and swastikas being painted are awful. I hope to god that in 2018 and 2020 America decides to revolt.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

She lost three blue states a black guy carried twice. This is about a flawed campaign strategy, a flawed candidate, lower base turnout, and white women being cooler with voting for a misogynist abuser than we thought.

Not going to lie, I didn't see Clinton losing MI, WI, and PA. Especially MI, where things looked good; iirc she lost by what, <20k votes? But I don't understand ignoring Wisconsin, given what happened in the primary. PA...that's just a loss, can't fault the campaign given that Philly turned out well.

We don't have to "cater" to white racists, nor is this a simple black/white issue of appealing to x or appealing to y. We ran a candidate who has had problems in the midwest contests since 2008, who has been on every side of trade issues since the 1990s. It was bad. And in the future it's clear candidates have to take a different, honest approach as opposed to lying to people. NAFTA didn't kill the jobs these white people claim it did, the death of manufacturing began in the 1980s, etc. But they believe NAFTA, TPP, etc are destroying their neighborhoods. We can't change that.

 

[whyamihere]

The more I look at the numbers the more I think the answer really just is "drive up turnout you lazy motherfuckers"

christ I can't believe Democrats didn't turn out for this one

Turns out voting against someone, even Trump, isn't a motivator.

 

[sazzy]

why is CNN showing a live shot of Donald's plane... flying?

 

[benjipwns]

The more I look at the numbers the more I think the answer really just is "drive up turnout you lazy motherfuckers"

christ I can't believe Democrats didn't turn out for this one

It was in the bag! Hillary was marching on Georgia like Sherman! Trump was an endless disaster who only ever said horrible things!

 

[Pixieking]

So basically just create old economy jobs is the best answer people have. That doesn't inspire confidence.

Automation has taken a lot. The UK is mostly service based, for instance. I think maybe there may have been an underlying notion that younger Rust Belt unemployed were also more socially progressive, so they'd suck-up a bad economy and vote Dem, because they want Lesbian porn and abortion rights over jobs.

I do believe education is key, and actually, the timing is perfect. Tell them now why they won't get a job, because then it's the Republican's fault if they can't make things better.

 

[shinra-bansho]

"fuck them, they're racist, they deserve nothing".

I missed this earlier. But this isn't what I think. It's more fuck the racists, but let's make sure our policies still help the stupid racists.

 

[Grief.exe]

I don't know why, maybe it's the weather, but I've felt a nice surge in fight in me. Things are going to get bad, and I don't think saying things will be fine does anyone good, but I'm not going to let depression, rage, and anxiety control me for years. Though people in here are going to continue to bicker about the minutiae of why this happened, I just wanted to say thanks to poligaf because I know we all want the same thing in the end even if we disagree on how to get there.

We need to come back hard. Fight like hell in 2018 to even be competitive, then make a better argument in 2020.

Personally, I'm going to turn off the policy side of my brain. All primary candidates will reflect similar progressive values. I'm going to choose the candidate that is more relatable, charismatic and, ultimately, will churn out the most turnout. That is the best path to victory.

So basically just create old economy jobs is the best answer people have. That doesn't inspire confidence.

I agree, that's not even possible. Those jobs are currently fleeing China because it's too expensive. If you don't have a computer science or engineering degree, manufacturing is gone.

I liked Hillary's argument that we are going to invest in cheaper college and transition the existing workforce to new economy jobs. That reality obviously didn't play well.