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[dramatis]

The more I look at the numbers the more I think the answer really just is "drive up turnout you lazy motherfuckers"

christ I can't believe Democrats didn't turn out for this one

This is the answer.

Because short of out-racisting the racists, you're not going to get the rural white vote without abandoning the minorities. You can offer all the socialist economic solutions you want to that crew, they're not going to gun for you when they can have the guy who is also offering unrealistic economic solutions with explicit racial appeals.

 

[whyamihere]

She lost three blue states a black guy carried twice. This is about a flawed campaign strategy, a flawed candidate, lower base turnout, and white women being cooler with voting for a misogynist abuser than we thought.

Not going to lie, I didn't see Clinton losing MI, WI, and PA. Especially MI, where things looked good; iirc she lost by what, <20k votes? But I don't understand ignoring Wisconsin, given what happened in the primary. PA...that's just a loss, can't fault the campaign given that Philly turned out well.

We don't have to "cater" to white racists, nor is this a simple black/white issue of appealing to x or appealing to y. We ran a candidate who has had problems in the midwest contests since 2008, who has been on every side of trade issues since the 1990s. It was bad. And in the future it's clear candidates have to take a different, honest approach as opposed to lying to people. NAFTA didn't kill the jobs these white people claim it did, the death of manufacturing began in the 1980s, etc. But they believe NAFTA, TPP, etc are destroying their neighborhoods. We can't change that.

Yup to all of this.

 

[Blader]

Nooooooooooo!

*sigh* Still not convinced of this, but let's agree to disagree, and go a different way.

Surrogates: Michelle Obama, Tim Kaine, Barack Obama.

Who there appeals to WWC/rural voter? Honestly, even if they aren't racist, that's two African-Americans, and a white dude who speaks Spanish.

Obama did. Not to a majority of them, he still lost overall among whites. But that loss was smaller than Hillary's.

The difference between winning and losing this election was ~110k voters in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. That's a soul-crushingly small margin today, but the good news is it's small enough to be fixed for 2020 and beyond.

Not going to lie, I didn't see Clinton losing MI, WI, and PA. Especially MI, where things looked good; iirc she lost by what, <20k votes? But I don't understand ignoring Wisconsin, given what happened in the primary. PA...that's just a loss, can't fault the campaign given that Philly turned out well.

Ignoring WI will always be looked at as a huge mistake, but given how much harder she campaigned in MI and especially PA but still lost there, I feel like the conclusion is that the losses here boiled down not to bad campaign strategy but the candidate herself.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Turns out voting against someone, even Trump, isn't a motivator.

The Busters were saying this for the entire campaign and we laughed them. They got the last laugh and that kills me.

I don't think I can stress enough how much I detest the Busters. And I have a seething rage in me that they were right and I have to own up that (I got quite a lot of... interesting PMs on Reddit yesterday)

 

[sphagnum]

So other than I told you so, basically just create old economy jobs is the best answer people have. That doesn't inspire confidence.

Honestly, let me know when you have a better idea. I think co-ops, workplace democracy, etc would all help but I know that's not going to happen. So until then, force jobs to happen. That's what the people want. Give it to them.

You guys dug us into this hole, I'm just spit balling ideas here to help get us out.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Obama did. Not to a majority of them, he still lost overall among whites. But that loss was smaller than Hillary's.

The difference between winning and losing this election was ~110k voters in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. That's a soul-crushingly small margin today, but the good news it's small enough to be fixed for 2020 and beyond.

People need to remember this. Don't start going full blue dogs Democratic council again

 

[AndyD]

The more I look at the numbers the more I think the answer really just is "drive up turnout you lazy motherfuckers"

christ I can't believe Democrats didn't turn out for this one

Pretty much this. Need a charismatic leader that turns people out. The policies are largely fine. Nothing will sway certain voters on either side from a policy perspective, it's just a matter of having a good enough candidate that people want to come out and vote for.

 

[Barzul]

why is CNN showing a live shot of Donald's plane... flying?

Ratings™

 

[sphagnum]

I missed this earlier. But this isn't what I think. It's more fuck the racists, but let's make sure our policies still help the stupid racists.

I agree, and that's what a lot of us were trying to say earlier in the primaries, but we got dog piled because having empathy - NOT SYMPATHY - is apparently a bad thing now.

 

[Pixieking]

Obama did. Not to a majority of them, he still lost overall among whites. But that loss was smaller than Hillary's.

The difference between winning and losing this election was ~110k voters in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. That's a soul-crushingly small margin today, but the good news it's small enough to be fixed for 2020 and beyond.

Yeah, but Obama also worked both ways. He had good appeal to a broad range of people, but on the flip-side, if you had been unemployed for any real amount of time during the last 8 years, you probably weren't going to believe much of what he said.

 

[dramatis]

And in the future it's clear candidates have to take a different, honest approach as opposed to lying to people. NAFTA didn't kill the jobs these white people claim it did, the death of manufacturing began in the 1980s, etc. But they believe NAFTA, TPP, etc are destroying their neighborhoods. We can't change that.

It's quite evident that candidates don't have to be honest at all to win. They just have to give the impression of honesty. Which means they should lie out of their butts and promise the moon, and people will 'like' them.

Welcome to the social media era

 

[tuffy]

I really hate that I'm turning against someone I supported for years to be president (I wanted her over Obama in 2008!), but I really, truly believe, looking at the data we have, that this election was 100% her fault and she was entirely unelectable. And that she ran a bad campaign and made a ton of mistakes that cost her the election. And that I ignored the warning signs that were all over because I just really liked her and really disliked Sanders.

How could we have known? Polls had her beating Trump in a head-to-head contest before the primaries were over, and she was beating him in the polls all the way through the general election. In hindsight we can say that a more charismatic candidate would've been preferable (shades of Bush vs. Gore all over again), but the need wasn't obvious during the campaign judging by the data that we had at the time.

And for what it's worth, I think Sanders would've performed far worse.

 

[StoOgE]

Honestly, let me know when you have a better idea. I think co-ops, workplace democracy, etc would all help but I know that's not going to happen. So until then, force jobs to happen. That's what the people want. Give it to them.

You guys dug us into this hole, I'm just spit balling ideas here to help get us out.

How do you fiat jobs into existence?

Like, what the government opens up an appliance company and just hands out good paying jobs?

 

[whyamihere]

Yeah, I mean, Clinton lived in PA, practically. Still lost. It's more than a visit to Eau Claire or Lansing. It was sadly a candidate and campaign problem.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Honestly, let me know when you have a better idea. I think co-ops, workplace democracy, etc would all help but I know that's not going to happen. So until then, force jobs to happen. That's what the people want. Give it to them.

You guys dug us into this hole, I'm just spit balling ideas here to help get us out.

I didn't dig your American hole. I'm just an outsider looking in at your mess.

You should have transitioned these people with better trade adjustment policies to new economy employment. Artificially propping up or protecting declining employment sectors seems a bandaid approach at very best.

I'm not sure if the new economy aversion is because these sectors are less likely to be organised labour.

You could encourage big bad things like entrepreneurship.

 

[PowerTaxi]

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...elect-could-be-visiting-ireland-35202875.html

I hate my country sometimes. It's all "Woooo that guy is kind of Irish. Fuck Yea!" without actually knowing what the man stands for.

 

[Frank the Great]

What many people are completely missing is that the WWC voters weren't necessariy voting exclusively for Trump. They fucking hate Hillary. They really 100% believe she is corrupt. I have multiple family members 100% believe that she "has blood on her hands" due to Benghazi. These people think she should be in jail, not in the oval office. In their view, Trump may be a racist but he is not a criminal. Compounding that was Hillary's complete failure to even attempt to appeal to these people. She is viewed as the enemy to them, in the same way Trump was viewed as enemy to Latinos. Can you think of a better motivation to vote?

Hillary is the most untrusted candidate of all time. People fucking hate her and she still almost won.

WWC voters aren't stupid. They are misguided, but not stupid. In their view the choice was between a guy who says horrible things but is relatable and fun to listen to, and a criminal harpy who has committed murder. The policies do not matter AT ALL to low information voters.

I really think it's that simple. The way to appeal to this small group of WWC voters who abandoned the Democrats is to have a better fucking candidate. Someone who can speak to them with respect and who doesn't have years of baggage. If he is pro-gun, even better. He wouldn't be viewed as the enemy and that would be enough to pick up the small number of white voters needed to tilt the election.

No need to abandon minorities or do anything drastic like that. Everyone focuses on Trump's appeal but people really despised Hillary and were motivated to prevent a criminal from taking the White House.

 

[Pixieking]

How do you fiat jobs into existence?

Like, what the government opens up an appliance company and just hands out good paying jobs?

Korean in the 70s, and Japan for the past 20+ years. Well, Japan has been basically build infrastructure and buildings we may not need to give people jobs to spend money, which didn't work because people were afraid of spending money due to the continued recession.

But the South Korean government in the 70s basically bank-rolled white goods and building material companies to kick-start their economy post Korean War.

(I did an undergrad essay on Korean economy, and took Post War Japan as a module during my degree. )

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...elect-could-be-visiting-ireland-35202875.html

I hate my country sometimes. It's all "Woooo that guy is kind of Irish. Fuck Yea!" without actually knowing what the man stands for.

He hates abortion, so the Irish government will love him.

(Meant to be a joke, but fuck me it's not funny is it?)

 

[metalslimer]

She lost three blue states a black guy carried twice. This is about a flawed campaign strategy, a flawed candidate, lower base turnout, and white women being cooler with voting for a misogynist abuser than we thought.

Not going to lie, I didn't see Clinton losing MI, WI, and PA. Especially MI, where things looked good; iirc she lost by what, <20k votes? But I don't understand ignoring Wisconsin, given what happened in the primary. PA...that's just a loss, can't fault the campaign given that Philly turned out well.

We don't have to "cater" to white racists, nor is this a simple black/white issue of appealing to x or appealing to y. We ran a candidate who has had problems in the midwest contests since 2008, who has been on every side of trade issues since the 1990s. It was bad. And in the future it's clear candidates have to take a different, honest approach as opposed to lying to people. NAFTA didn't kill the jobs these white people claim it did, the death of manufacturing began in the 1980s, etc. But they believe NAFTA, TPP, etc are destroying their neighborhoods. We can't change that.

Yeah I can't lie her TPP and trade arguments were obvious that she was playing a politician and lying about her real feelings. If we could sense it, it definitely was picked up in those midwest states. Instead of fighting for how she believed in free trade, she tried to play both sides of the issue and it didn't go well. We need a consistent message going forward on that.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I didn't dig your American hole. I'm just an outsider looking in at your mess.

You should have transitioned these people with better trade adjustment policies to new economy employment. Artificially propping up or protecting declining employment sectors seems a bandaid approach at very best.

I'm not sure if the new economy aversion is because these sectors are less likely to be organised labour.

How were supposed to do that when the gop blocked every every infrastructure, or any trade bill that would helped.

 

[Wag]

Is a sitting President obligated to show up in court if subpoenaed? Trump has multiple ongoing lawsuits against him and I'm sure this is not the last of them.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

How could we have known? Polls had her beating Trump in a head-to-head contest before the primaries were over, and she was beating him in the polls all the way through the general election. In hindsight we can say that a more charismatic candidate would've been preferable (shades of Bush vs. Gore all over again), but the need wasn't obvious during the campaign judging by the data that we had at the time.

And for what it's worth, I think Sanders would've performed far worse.

The email scandal would have destroyed a campaign, but we thought "nah, it's Trump, we're winning polls, it's fine, she can weather this" and she didn't. And she lost.

We got too stuck in the mindset of relying 100% on data that we ignored the obvious, glaring issues she had as a candidate. She was unrelatable. She had a pending investigations. She had trust issues and liked to hide things. We should have saw these as red flags, but we shrouded ourselves in polls and data and ignored them.

I think the election was decided on September 10th, when she uttered the phrase "deplorable." I'm probably going to take it to my grave that's the day the election was decided. But we thought it was great and she was awesome for saying what we're all thinking!

 

[Doc Holliday]

Is a sitting President obligated to show up in court if subpoenaed? Trump has multiple ongoing lawsuits against him and I'm sure this is not the last of them.

Bill Clinton did

 

[benjipwns]

Is a sitting President obligated to show up in court if subpoenaed? Trump has multiple ongoing lawsuits against him and I'm sure this is not the last of them.

Bill did.

 

[Grief.exe]

WWC = Whites Without College?

&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;

 

[shinra-bansho]

How were supposed to do that when the gop blocked every every infrastructure, or any trade bill that would helped dared to come up?

Well, make these your policies. Rather than pretending you're going to bring back these old jobs somehow.

 

[Resident_UA]

This clip of Michael Moore predicting that Trump will win is actually making me feel a bit better. Just MAYBE not all Trump voters are racist... Also I've always found Micheal Moore insightful. The dude doesn't get as much credit as he should.

https://youtu.be/YKeYbEOSqYc

 

[Barzul]

What many people are completely missing is that the WWC voters weren't necessariy voting exclusively for Trump. They fucking hate Hillary. They really 100% believe she is corrupt. I have multiple family members 100% believe that she "has blood on her hands" due to Benghazi. These people think she should be in jail, not in the oval office. In their view, Trump may be a racist but he is not a criminal. Compounding that was Hillary's complete failure to even attempt to appeal to these people. She is viewed as the enemy to them, in the same way Trump was viewed as enemy to Latinos. Can you think of a better motivation to vote?

Hillary is the most untrusted candidate of all time. People fucking hate her and she still almost won.

WWC voters aren't stupid. They are misguided, but not stupid. In their view the choice was between a guy who says horrible things but is relatable and fun to listen to, and a criminal harpy who has committed murder. The policies do not matter AT ALL to low information voters.

I really think it's that simple. The way to appeal to this small group of WWC voters who abandoned the Democrats is to have a better fucking candidate. Someone who can speak to them with respect and who doesn't have years of baggage. If he is pro-gun, even better. He wouldn't be viewed as the enemy and that would be enough to pick up the small number of white voters needed to tilt the election.

No need to abandon minorities or do anything drastic like that. Everyone focuses on Trump's appeal but people really despised Hillary and were motivated to prevent a criminal from taking the White House.

Some people here will ignore you but you are exactly right. I heard this stuff at work, I didn't respond to it, but I heard it loud and clear. Hillary Clinton was intensely disliked and mistrusted and look how close it came. Significant numbers of WWC will abandon Trump if all he offers is just his words and does not deliver. If he actually does give them back their jobs, then those states are lost for good.

 

[Wag]

Bill did.

Civil lawsuits as well as criminal?

 

[Pixieking]

WWC = Whites Without College?

&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;

White Working Class. So, almost.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

We know the Ryan Budget will a) cause a ton of pain to people who voted Trump, and b) fail to fix the economic problems of people who are hurting. We need to make sure that we hang every ounce of that pain on the necks of Ryan, McConnell, Trump and CONSERVATISM. And I say the Democrat who does this the best should be our candidate in 2020. So our path back may be simpler than it feels right now.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

WWC = Whites Without College?

&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;

white working class?

 

[whyamihere]

WWC = Whites Without College?

&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;

White working class

 

[balladofwindfishes]

How were supposed to do that when the gop blocked every every infrastructure, or any trade bill that would helped.

Apparently McConnell isn't even going to allow Trump's infrastructure law to be put to vote.

I think these next four years are going to show some serious division in the GOP. All three branches of the federal government think they have a blank check to do what they want. But all three also have their own internal politics and issues that the other branches do not want. What's going to happen when Ryan opposes the wall and never allows it on the floor? Or McConnell won't allow the Senate to vote for Trump's infrastructure. Or when they find out Obamacare can't be repealed as easily as they think. Or when they approve TPP in the lame duck.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Well, make these your policies. Rather than pretending you're going to bring back these old jobs somehow.

I don't understand, these are core democratic party policies. Making them law is something different.

 

[Dierce]

This clip of Michael Moore predicting that Trump will win is actually making me feel a bit better. Just MAYBE not all Trump voters are racist... Also I've always found Micheal Moore insightful. The dude doesn't get as much credit as he should.

https://youtu.be/YKeYbEOSqYc

But the fact remains that you should never turn a blind eye to racism. He represents the worst among white people and some are completely fine with that for completely selfish reasons. So in the end there is no justification for their decision.

 

[Abstrusity]

This clip of Michael Moore predicting that Trump will win is actually making me feel a bit better. Just MAYBE not all Trump voters are racist... Also I've always found Micheal Moore insightful. The dude doesn't get as much credit as he should.

https://youtu.be/YKeYbEOSqYc

That's because in between snippets of insight is some fear mongering sometimes, some off the rails theories others, some straight lies and half-truths, too.

I hesitate to call him a broken clock, but he IS pretty correct.

 

[shinra-bansho]

You people are dreadfully optimistic of a turn on Trump.
When he can just find another group to scapegoat.
They bought his lies before.

 

[Pixieking]

We know the Ryan Budget will a) cause a ton of pain to people who voted Trump, and b) fail to fix the economic problems of people who are hurting. We need to make sure that we hang every ounce of that pain on the necks of Ryan, McConnell, Trump and CONSERVATISM. And I say the Democrat who does this the best should be our candidate in 2020. So our path back may be simpler than it feels right now.

Yup. The Dems need to be the best fucking opposition ever, and literally point out every single thing that Trump and the Republicans do that screws over the Dem base. Do a weekly email of them. Have a monthly paper sent out to dentists, auto-dealers, sports stores, grocery stores.

This is what the DNC should do anyways, right?

@emilynussbaum McConnell said yesterday Senate won't consider infrastructure program. So it's gonna be cuts to safety net & no jobs program.

It legit begins now. If I had email lists, I'd send this out to the WWC/rural voters, and show that Trump/Republicans haven't even taken over, and they're screwing them.

 

[benjipwns]

Civil lawsuits as well as criminal?

Trump is not facing any criminal charges that I'm aware of?

Bill's was a civil lawsuit that got wrapped up in a special prosecutor's investigation.

 

[Elaugaufein]

WWC = Whites Without College?

&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;&#129300;

White Working Class I think.

 

[Grief.exe]

White Working Class. So, almost.

white working class?

White working class

My interpretation is essentially the same demographic

You people are dreadfully optimistic of a turn on Trump.
When he can just find another group to scapegoat.
They bought his lies before.

The Hitler analogues have never been more real.

 

[sunshine and gasoline]

I think the election was decided on September 10th, when she uttered the phrase "deplorable." I'm probably going to take it to my grave that's the day the election was decided. But we thought it was great and she was awesome for saying what we're all thinking!

A few of us did say that such language was not wise but there certainly were plently that cheered it on. It probably did hurt Hillary in the eyes of many people who might have voted her.

 

[Wag]

Trump is not facing any criminal charges that I'm aware of?

Bill's was a civil lawsuit that got wrapped up in a special prosecutor's investigation.

Yes, Whitewater. But I'm wondering if the President could just excuse himself from any criminal charges?

 

[shinra-bansho]

I don't understand, these are core democratic party policies. Making them law is something different.

From a quick look trade adjustment assistance last year was voted down by both Republicans and Democrats together. Only 40 Democratic congresspeople voted for it. 86 Republicans voted for it.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm think the big takeaways are

• -Find someone young-ish, attractive, who can orate and communicate well and hasn't taken too many contradictory positions in the past
• -They don't have to be an outsider but its better if they haven't been in bed with institutions that many voters have come to mistrust like Wall Street
• -Don't take any Blue state for granted (except the West Coast and DC/Tri-State areas)
• -DO NOT throw minorities under the bus. Keep saying BLM, just not if you're campaigning in the middle of Appalachia
• -I think the only issue that may be worth considering moderation on is the gun issue? Or at least appear more moderate - I think things like at least background checks et al are important.
• -Don't assume people will not vote for human garbage
• -Nail Trump to the wall for every promise he has failed to keep or how little of an outsider he will turn out to be
• -Overhaul the DNC, get some new blood, hit the ground running for the mid-terms.

Anything else?

 

[Resident_UA]

But the fact remains that you should never turn a blind eye to racism. He represents the worst among white people and some are completely fine with that for completely selfish reasons. So in the end there is no justification for their decision.

Well, if you've been fucked over by the system it's hard to care about social values. It's not even that they don't care about racism. They don't even think about it because there are much larger things that have impact on their lives. I can easily relate to that.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

What many people are completely missing is that the WWC voters weren't necessariy voting exclusively for Trump. They fucking hate Hillary. They really 100% believe she is corrupt. I have multiple family members 100% believe that she "has blood on her hands" due to Benghazi. These people think she should be in jail, not in the oval office. In their view, Trump may be a racist but he is not a criminal. Compounding that was Hillary's complete failure to even attempt to appeal to these people. She is viewed as the enemy to them, in the same way Trump was viewed as enemy to Latinos. Can you think of a better motivation to vote?

Hillary is the most untrusted candidate of all time. People fucking hate her and she still almost won.

WWC voters aren't stupid. They are misguided, but not stupid. In their view the choice was between a guy who says horrible things but is relatable and fun to listen to, and a criminal harpy who has committed murder. The policies do not matter AT ALL to low information voters.

I really think it's that simple. The way to appeal to this small group of WWC voters who abandoned the Democrats is to have a better fucking candidate. Someone who can speak to them with respect and who doesn't have years of baggage. If he is pro-gun, even better. He wouldn't be viewed as the enemy and that would be enough to pick up the small number of white voters needed to tilt the election.

No need to abandon minorities or do anything drastic like that. Everyone focuses on Trump's appeal but people really despised Hillary and were motivated to prevent a criminal from taking the White House.

This is basically where I am at. Some of the post mortem is saying that dems need to abandon minorities, but that's simply not the case.

Clinton was the wrong candidate. I love Clinton, I will keep my avatar like this until 2020, but I thought Trump was just so fucking vile that the people who legit didn't trust her would still turn out.

She lost the white votes that Obama won. We know that Trump thrived off his hate, but we have to look that the reason we lost the rust belt was because Clinton was not the candidate who could win it like Obama did.

We won the popular vote, the voters who didn't vote or for some reason voted Trump did vote for Obama. The issue of losing the election isn't racists taking over, it's an issue of apathy in a specific section of the country.

This wasn't a wave election, the states we lost are not gone forever, because we lost them by less than a two hundred thousand in total. This situation is easily fixable if you just have someone who has a somewhat populist movement behind them and doesn't have the baggage.

 

[Doc Holliday]

At the end of the day Democrats/liberals picked the wrong election to choose idealism over pragmatism. Silly decision considering the consequences.

I'm just hoping Trump somehow finds decency when faced the sheer amount of people he can affect.

If that doesn't matter lets hope Ryan, McConnell, Schumer and Pelosi can be out firewall because our news media has failed us.

 

[Pixieking]

I'm think the big takeaways are

• -Find someone young-ish, attractive, who can orate and communicate well and hasn't taken too many contradictory positions in the past - Kander
• -They don't have to be an outsider but its better if they haven't been in bed with institutions that many voters have come to mistrust like Wall Street - Kander
• -Don't take any Blue state for granted (except the West Coast and DC/Tri-State areas)
• -DO NOT throw minorities under the bus. Keep saying BLM, just not if you're campaigning in the middle of Appalachia - Kander?
• -I think the only issue that may be worth considering moderation on is the gun issue? Or at least appear more moderate - I think things like at least background checks et al are important.- Kander!!!!
• -Don't assume people will not vote for human garbage
• -Nail Trump to the wall for every promise he has failed to keep or how little of an outsider he will turn out to be
• -Overhaul the DNC, get some new blood, hit the ground running for the mid-terms.

Anything else?

Kander