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[daedalius]

Sanders Abruptly Ends Interview after questions about Joe Arpio



The local NBC affiliate who is going to air it is running with the headline

Ahead of Phoenix rally, Sanders abruptly ends 12 News interview

Geez, looks bad

"Don't say I walked away!"

 

[Basileus777]

This primary is the first I've heard of it.

It's been around for a long time and is used internationally. It's really strange to paint it as some new term Bernie fans invented.

 

[johnsmith]

There is no fucking way she would pick Kasich. Chris Matthews keeps vomiting this suggestion and he's an idiot.

 

[NeoXChaos]

We can have another few decades of Republican-lite candidates and, at best, center-right Supreme Court placements through an intransigent Congress or 4 years of Trump and some painful Supreme Court appointments that serve as electroconvulsive therapy and breaks this cycle of Democratic mediocrity once and for all. As I stated earlier, the Democratic party is happy to continue this cycle in perpetuity until something truly horrific happens to wake up and unify the party. Perhaps a loss to Trump is the horrific affliction that finally awakens the party to the realization that chasing the Republicans rightward toward the cliff and expecting liberals to keep following their hollow promises of a carrot to come was the wrong move entirely.

Someone explain the mindset of losing to make the party go more left. Has it worked before? Did it work in other parties in other countries?

I really am curious because this sentiment is brought up.

 

[Tesseract]

ROFL people are actually talking about neoliberalism

Muccessful Fission

 

[Slayven]

So a couple of my friends are doing phonebanking for Bernie.

I have to say, if I was called up by someone who wasn't from my country to try and tell me how I should vote, I'd probably tell them to piss off.

Tell them to say sanders is big on welfare

 

[CCS]

Tell them to say sanders is big on welfare

They're Oxford champagne socialists who've never been to America in their life. I trust in their ability to fuck it up by themselves

 

[Basileus777]

Mormons really, really don't like Trump. (From @NateCohn on Twitter)

That may make Utah really interesting in the fall.

Someone should buy Hillary shares for Utah in the GE.

 

[User 463088]

I'm of the mind that spouses and children are off limits for criticism, even when you're using them as campaign surrogates. Except for Bill, because....come on. He's Bill Clinton.

However, the Sander's campaign decided to send Mrs. Sanders to the tent city to score some political points. That's perfectly fine. They have the right to do that....but Bernie can't then get all offended and shocked when Asshole Sheriff Joe pushes back a little bit. Lke I said, I'm not being critical of her. She's an intelligent woman who can more than defend herself and explain her actions. But, at the same time, you don't get to try to use a surrogate for points and then act surprised or pissed when someone pushes back either.

 

[Holmes]

https://imgur.com/a/5Wg6y

They're convinced Trump will destroy Clinton in the general. Sanders or his campaign can release a talking point and they will not only believe it at face value right away, but will then parrot it endlessly.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Rand could try and run again. Nikki Haley's name is floated a lot. They currently hold like 2/3rds of the governor's mansions. The average age of Republicans in congress is about 4 years lower than Democrats.

That said, they might turn to Kasich as a throwaway nominee in the event that HRC's first term goes swimmingly.

Rubio is clearly Harry Kim.

Oh that works too.

 

[Jarmel]

When was the last time someone chose a person outside of their party for the VP slot?

 

[VendettaRed07]

Someone explain the mindset of losing to make the party go more left. Has it worked before? Did it work in other parties in other countries?

I really am curious because this sentiment is brought up.

Losing has made the Republican party move farther right.

 

[Basileus777]

When was the last time someone chose a person outside of their party for the VP slot?

Unfortunately Lincoln did it. The selection rules were different then so it's not a great comparison though.

 

[User 463088]

Someone explain the mindset of losing to make the party go more left. Has it worked before? Did it work in other parties in other countries?

I really am curious because this sentiment is brought up.

I guess you could argue Mondale was to the left of Carter, although it's a weak argument. Typically, when a party swings too far left or right, they tack back to the center. That's why Bill was a third way Democrat after the losses of Carter, Mondale and Dukakis. The GOP is doing the opposite. Their more rabid fan base believes that they're losing because they're just not going far right enough. Although, how Trump fits into this I don't know.

 

[Holmes]

Someone should buy Hillary shares for Utah in the GE.

Nah, it's still Utah after all.

 

[Jarmel]

Really it should have been Cruz rallying the anti-establishment base but Trump fucked all of that up. Maybe if Cruz was more likable, Trump wouldn't have found a base.

 

[kirblar]

Kasich will be like 68 come November 2020.

The term neocon actually relates more to foreign policy hawkishness.
Amusingly, neoliberal basically refers to more libertarian economics, from memory.

Basically add neo to things.

There should be a neomoderate.

The "Neoliberal" thing is definitely left-wing complaints about economics.

Which is hilarious when they're trying to blame the problems of former/current communist states in South America on "Neoliberal" American policies.

 

[Iolo]

Rubio is Chakotay. Boring as shit character.

Chakotay: Former member of the Maquis, now part of the Federation
Rubio: Former member of the Tea Party, now part of the GOPe

It seems to work

 

[Jarmel]

The GOP should be supporting Trump over Cruz, or at least not hindering him. Cruz is actively trying to take over the party, Trump doesn't give a fuck. They could recover from Trump after a decade, it would take significantly longer if Cruz and the Tea Party take control and drag them all even further right.

 

[Ananas]

The "Neoliberal" thing is definitely left-wing complaints about economics.

Which is hilarious when they're trying to blame the problems of former/current communist states in South America on "Neoliberal" American policies.

It depends entire on the context. In IR theory Neoliberalism is a school of thought against neorealism/realism. It argues that international institutions can affect the way that states act towards each other within in the framework of the security dilemma. Whereas realism argues that states will take part in international institutions but not to the point where it greatly impacts the way that they treat the international security dilemma.

 

[User 406]

I heard on the radio that Clinton is looking at Kasich or Manchin as VP.

neoFUCK!!!

Someone explain the mindset of losing to make the party go more left. Has it worked before? Did it work in other parties in other countries?

I really am curious because this sentiment is brought up.

It's just petulant accelerationism. Things aren't going leftward fast enough for them, and so they perceive things as moving rightward, and they think everyone else is the frog in the proverbial pot of hot water who needs to be shocked out of fatal complacency.

The idea that losing a few SC seats is worth it is by far the most extinction level stupid part of the whole idea. At that point you might as well just advocate for violent revolution after the sheeple wake up or whatever coz you ain't getting shit past a court full of Scalias.

As for the neoliberal term, I just chalk it up to another variation of "same as the Republicans".

 

[RobotChant]

Literally who else could possibly be the nominee in 2020 other than Trump again.

Paul Ryan looks to be positioning for a run... That is if he can survive the speakership without too much bs from the far right faction in the GOP. And he'd probably need to keep his hands as clean as possible when dealing with Trump.

 

[User 463088]

http://robbywells2016.com/

This is the most aggressive campaign website I've ever seen.

 

[Makai]

It depends entire on the context. In IR theory Neoliberalism is a school of thought against neorealism/realism. It argues that international institutions can affect the way that states act towards each other within in the framework of the security dilemma. Whereas realism argues that states will take part in international institutions but not to the point where it greatly impacts the way that they treat the international security dilemma.

I studied IR. Your description of neoliberalism is exactly like liberalism. What's the difference?

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Mormons really, really don't like Trump. (From @NateCohn on Twitter)

That may make Utah really interesting in the fall.

Utah going blue in 2016...

 

[Ananas]

I studied IR. Your description of neoliberalism is exactly like liberalism. What's the difference?

It's new! I've got my Master's in IR and it still all confuses me. Though I generally fall into the realism camp.

 

[Black Mamba]

Rand could try and run again. Nikki Haley's name is floated a lot. They currently hold like 2/3rds of the governor's mansions. The average age of Republicans in congress is about 4 years lower than Democrats.

That said, they might turn to Kasich as a throwaway nominee in the event that HRC's first term goes swimmingly.
Oh that works too.

If you're going to have a throwaway nominee and a big problem with your party is the unrelenting demagoguery from the far right conservatives, why not make Ted Cruz be the guy?

It will end the "not conservative enough" and "not outsider enough" angle through 2 elections and finally they can become a party that compromises, again.

 

[Makai]

It's new! I've got my Master's in IR and it still all confuses me. Though I generally fall into the realism camp.

Wow, who is a realist these days? I was taught that realism has been completely discredited and everybody is a liberal now. Bush admin was full of liberals. Obama admin is full of liberals. Trump talks like a realist, I guess.

 

[sphagnum]

I'm surprised there are so many people here who are unfamiliar with neoliberalism. Do you guys not read anything from socialist or radical left perspectives?

That wouldn't surprise me since this board, and PoliGAF in particular, is full of liberals (in both senses).

edit: Neoliberalism isn't taking the term "liberal" in the American sense of the word and slapping neo- on it to make it similar to neocons or something like that. It just refers to the resurgence/reinforcement in economic ideas based on liberalism (that is to say, classical liberalism) following the 70s. The Democratic party has moved away from being a party that was aligning itself more and more with social democratic policies to a neoliberal party. We are now seeing that there are people who want to move it away from neoliberalism back towards social democracy.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Rubio is Renly Baratheon.

 

[johnsmith]

Utah is not going blue. They hate Hillary way too much.

 

[Ananas]

Wow, who is a realist these days? I was taught that realism has been completely discredited and everybody is a liberal now. Bush admin was full of liberals. Obama admin is full of liberals. Trump talks like a realist, I guess.

I mean, Huntington is the most recent most famous neorealist but he was a little over the top. I generally believe that push come to shove states will act in their own self interest and will act towards relative gains.

 

[sphagnum]

It's kind of amusing that so many liberals don't even recognize what neoliberalism is. I think that helps explain why Bernie and Hillary fans keep talking past each other half the time.

edit: Also goes hand in hand with the ideological hegemony that liberalism has over American life.

 

[Ananas]

It's kind of amusing that so many liberals don't even recognize what neoliberalism is. I think that helps explain why Bernie and Hillary fans keep talking past each other half the time.

"Liberal" in the american sense isn't the same as neoliberalism. Neoliberalism in economics isn't the same as neoliberalism in International Relations. It's an argument in semantics. American Liberals know what Neoliberalism is they just don't know it as Neoliberalism.

 

[hawk2025]

It's kind of amusing that so many liberals don't even recognize what neoliberalism is. I think that helps explain why Bernie and Hillary fans keep talking past each other half the time.

edit: Also goes hand in hand with the ideological hegemony that liberalism has over American life.

Everyone knows what it is, regardless of the semantics discussion -- but in discussing economics and policy the term itself is, at its core, a straw-man.

There is empirical economic evidence, and there is everything else.

What you would call neoliberals currently support increasing the minimum wage, sweeping health care reform, and redistribution of wealth.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Rubio is Renly Baratheon.

So the rumors are true.

Also, lol, I'm aware it's not just slapping neo onto something. But it's a strawman boogeyman label these days that's used to paint anyone that's not "left enough."

The party's platform is for healthcare access reform, progressive taxation, increased minimum wages, as noted above. The US will never be a Scandinavian social democracy.

 

[Basileus777]

Sharron Angle is back again and running for Reid's seat.

 

[sphagnum]

"Liberal" in the american sense isn't the same as neoliberalism. Neoliberalism in economics isn't the same as neoliberalism in International Relations. It's an argument in semantics. American Liberals know what Neoliberalism is they just don't know it as Neoliberalism.

I know, though I was just speaking about the economic ideology. That's why I was saying that Bernie and Hillary fans keep talking past each other, because they're using terms differently.

What you would call neoliberals currently support increasing the minimum wage, sweeping health care reform, and redistribution of wealth.

I would call those left-liberals.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

It's more like "neo-neo-liberalism" anyway given its history which is why I've always thought it was a dumb term.

 

[hawk2025]

I know, though I was just speaking about the economic ideology. That's why I was saying that Bernie and Hillary fans keep talking past each other, because they're using terms differently.



I would call those left-liberals.

Call them as you wish -- again, my point was simply that it's a wishy-washy label that accomplishes nothing and does not accurately describe a school of thought, because no such school exists. The closest it gets is in describing the Chicago school, but nearly 3 decades ago.

So the rumors are true.

Also, lol, I'm aware it's not just slapping neo onto something. But it's a strawman boogeyman label these days that's used to paint anyone that's not "left enough."

The party's platform is for healthcare access reform, progressive taxation, increased minimum wages, as noted above. The US will never be a Scandinavian social democracy.

Exactly.

 

[The Librarian]

Hillary will not do that.

wow im so convinced

 

[Butts-a-plenty]

I know, though I was just speaking about the economic ideology. That's why I was saying that Bernie and Hillary fans keep talking past each other, because they're using terms differently.



I would call those left-liberals.

Everyone should read Ethnonationalism by Walker Connor. Many of the ideas are out of date but it has a wonderful chapter on how incorrect usage of terminology has led to a lack of understanding as to the source of conflicts. Understanding "ethnic" violence was one of my favorite topics. Attributing violence to ethnic differences is the easiest explanation when in reality it is the source of very few conflicts.

 

[kirblar]

I'm surprised there are so many people here who are unfamiliar with neoliberalism. Do you guys not read anything from socialist or radical left perspectives?

That wouldn't surprise me since this board, and PoliGAF in particular, is full of liberals (in both senses).

edit: Neoliberalism isn't taking the term "liberal" in the American sense of the word and slapping neo- on it to make it similar to neocons or something like that. It just refers to the resurgence/reinforcement in economic ideas based on liberalism (that is to say, classical liberalism) following the 70s. The Democratic party has moved away from being a party that was aligning itself more and more with social democratic policies to a neoliberal party. We are now seeing that there are people who want to move it away from neoliberalism back towards social democracy.

Economic thought moved right because communism was exposed as a complete failure.

This was a good thing. The question is now no longer "Is capitalism the right way to go" but instead "what form of capitalism is best?"

The Democrats were right to shift rightward here, because they're following empiricism and knowledge.

 

[User 406]

If you're going to have a throwaway nominee and a big problem with your party is the unrelenting demagoguery from the far right conservatives, why not make Ted Cruz be the guy?

It will end the "not conservative enough" and "not outsider enough" angle through 2 elections and finally they can become a party that compromises, again.

I don't really buy the "elect true conservative -> lose -> true conservatives realize their error" theory. They primaried Eric fuckin' Cantor. The rabid true conservative types are in full on Prosperity Gospel mode, where righteousness is defined by success. If someone can't beat the evil liberals, they clearly were never really conservative at all.

 

[shinra-bansho]

HRC: a neoliberal, neoconservative, big government, big spending liberal, social justice warrior, who wants to open borders for all the illegals and deport children, weak on crime, tough on crime, soft, hawk, corporate welfare, high taxing job-killer, Wall St loving, red-tape loving, loves the gays, hates the gays, divisive, blood coming out of her whatever, not feminine enough, shrill, unaccomplished Butcher of Benghazi.

Flip flopper.

 

[Basileus777]

I don't really buy the "elect true conservative -> lose -> true conservatives realize their error" theory. They primaried Eric fuckin' Cantor. The rabid true conservative types are in full on Prosperity Gospel mode, where righteousness is defined by success. If someone can't beat the evil liberals, they clearly were never really conservative at all.

Discrediting it just among donors would do a lot of damage.

 

[sphagnum]

So the rumors are true.

Also, lol, I'm aware it's not just slapping neo onto something. But it's a strawman boogeyman label these days that's used to paint anyone that's not "left enough."

The party's platform is for healthcare access reform, progressive taxation, increased minimum wages, as noted above. The US will never be a Scandinavian social democracy.

You're right that there are people who are using it uncritically but that does not mean the idea of it is nonsense itself. I would prefer to simply call neoliberals "liberals" but I don't because then people would be even more confused due to the way that we use "liberal" in this country.

It is, however, an extremely useful term in describing the Democratic Party overall because it makes the distinction between leftism and liberalism more apparent for people who aren't taught about the former. The Democratic Party and the Republican Party are both liberal parties. One is left-liberal and the other is right-liberal. It's not going to happen (unfortunately) but I would like to see the Democratic Party eventually one day just break from liberalism all together.

 

[sphagnum]

Economic thought moved right because communism was exposed as a complete failure.

This was a good thing. The question is now no longer "Is capitalism the right way to go" but instead "what form of capitalism is best?"

The Democrats were right to shift rightward here, because they're following empiricism and knowledge.

Economic thought moved right because Marxism-Leninism and state socialism failed and gave "socialism", which is an incredibly broad subject, a bad name. Don't conflate "communism" with "state socialism".* That does not invalidate criticism of capitalism and the need to replace it, and we're going to see that as this century goes on. Whether it gets replaced with socialism or fascism, or whether capitalism hangs on and morphs into something different, is the question.

What you said still isn't correct anyway, because the failure of "communism" doesn't mean that the Democrats should have abandoned social democracy, which is not socialism.

*Yes I'm aware of the No True Scotsman fallacy before you say that. No I'm not saying the USSR was not socialist. No I'm not using "it wasn't real communism!" as an excuse. I'm saying that they tried socialism and failed and never even got to the communism part.

edit: I was expecting someone to have posted something inbetween these posts by the time I posted it!

 

[Makai]

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