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[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I would posit that about a quarter to a third of Trump's support comes from hardcore racists. The rest are a hodge podge of misfits who have lighted on Trump's candidacy for a variety of reasons, the overarching theme being that they hate some or most aspects of the current status quo and like that somebody is promising to utterly dynamite it.

Edit: shinra, I don't disagree, but I think the difference I would make is that they are not pursuing that policy because it would be racially discriminatory, but because they value their own inner sense of security more and don't really care whether or not the policy would have a racist effect. I guess I just think there needs to be a different term for that versus, say, the people stumping for Trump on the grounds that he is the savior of the white race and the last chance for European Americans to "rise up" and "take what's theirs" or whatever the nonsense is.

 

[brainchild]

Let's just call a spade a spade. It's racism.

Because there is no way to test for "Muslimness." A white person can convert to Islam. There are secular people from the Middle East. The degree of adherence is going to vary.

The ban policy, and the people supporting it, ultimately boils down to wanting a "temporary" indefinite ban on brown people.

I can detect no lies in this statement.

 

[BoboBrazil]

It's kind of crazy this is all due to the refusal to disavow David Duke for the most part. He wasnt really getting protestors before that.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

This fucking asshole Trump supporter has been a shit stain for over a year and Twitter refuses to ban him.

https://twitter.com/Ricky_Vaughn99/status/708528809805553664

He is one of the most popular Trump supporters and GamerGates on Twitter and Twitter won't get off their fucking ass to ban a NeoNazi.

 

[pigeon]

I would posit that about a quarter to a third of Trump's support comes from hardcore racists. The rest are a hodge podge of misfits who have lighted on Trump's candidacy for a variety of reasons, the overarching theme being that they hate some or most aspects of the current status quo and like that somebody is promising to utterly dynamite it.

I mean, I feel like there's this exact constant air of negotiation when it comes to discussing Trump's racism, like we're trying to identify how much of Trump's support can be super racist without tainting all the rest of the people who like him.

So let me be clear, I guess: it is not acceptable for any of your support to be white supremacists! Those guys are officially bad. I mean, I guess you can't stop them from voting for you, but the people in your movement should be very clear about saying that the white supremacists are bad and not part of the group.

When your supporters are throwing women of color out of your events violently, but Nazi grandmas are allowed to stay and strut for the media, then you're problematic.

If you support a candidate because of their "other policies," and those other policies are more important to you than being against white supremacy, then guess what -- you're a racist!

 

[Owzers]

calling Obama divisive is my internet "triggered" meme or whatever, the people who say it know exactly what they're doing.

 

[East Lake]

It's kind of crazy this is all due to the refusal to disavow David Duke for the most part. He wasnt really getting protestors before that.

He has been getting them for a long time. If you go back and watch his rallies a couple months back a lot of them get interrupted pretty often. He either didn't think his security could manage this one or it's a media stunt.

 

[BoboBrazil]

He has been getting them for a long time. If you go back and watch his rallies a couple months back a lot of them get interrupted pretty often. He either didn't think his security could manage this one or it's a media stunt.

Well he used to get maybe 2 or 3 in a rally. Tonight was the first time I thought someone might try to bring a gun in and shoot the guy. There was even an article posted encouraging protestors to bring guns to his rallies.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I mean, I feel like there's this exact constant air of negotiation when it comes to discussing Trump's racism, like we're trying to identify how much of Trump's support can be super racist without tainting all the rest of the people who like him.

So let me be clear, I guess: it is not acceptable for any of your support to be white supremacists! Those guys are officially bad. I mean, I guess you can't stop them from voting for you, but the people in your movement should be very clear about saying that the white supremacists are bad and not part of the group.

When your supporters are throwing women of color out of your events violently, but Nazi grandmas are allowed to stay and strut for the media, then you're problematic.

If you support a candidate because of their "other policies," and those other policies are more important to you than being against white supremacy, then guess what -- you're a racist!

Hey, I don't disagree with this, but as I said in my previous post, I think there needs to be some kind of intermediate term to delineate people who are more racially oblivious in their political stances than outright racially antagonistic. Trump has both in his camp right now, and just lumping them both under the label of "racist" draws both a moral and an intellectual equivalence between the two that I think misses a necessary level of nuance, even if technically true. If somebody likes that Trump is promising to bring back jobs by renegotiating trade deals, and is ignorant of the concept of systemic racism or just kinda thinks Trump with his history of social liberalism on some things is just playing to morons to get elected and won't really govern like that, I would probably not view that person as harshly as, say, the denizens of The Chimpire calling him "Glorious Leader" or whatever is their obnoxious pet name for him. Neither are good, but one is clearly worse.

 

[Ecotic]

Well he used to get maybe 2 or 3 in a rally. Tonight was the first time I thought someone might try to bring a gun in and shoot the guy. There was even an article posted encouraging protestors to bring guns to his rallies.

I think it's more the urgency of the situation. Trump is now the heavy favorite for the nomination, whereas 5 weeks ago no states have voted and a lot of people could fool themselves into believing he would fizzle out.

 

[watershed]

Hey, I don't disagree with this, but as I said in my previous post, I think there needs to be some kind of intermediate term to delineate people who are more racially oblivious in their political stances than outright racially antagonistic. Trump has both in his camp right now, and just lumping them both under the label of "racist" draws both a moral and an intellectual equivalence between the two that I think misses a necessary level of nuance, even if technically true.

I would consider both groups to be racist. Ignorance isn't an excuse for racism nor is it a substitute. You can be ignorant and a racist and entirely ignorant of your own racism. I suspect that's how it is with most racists.

 

[Ophelion]

Well he used to get maybe 2 or 3 in a rally. Tonight was the first time I thought someone might try to bring a gun in and shoot the guy. There was even an article posted encouraging protestors to bring guns to his rallies.

An article posted where? Online? Links?

 

[shinra-bansho]

shinra, I don't disagree, but I think the difference I would make is that they are not pursuing that policy because it would be racially discriminatory, but because they value their own inner sense of security more and don't really care whether or not the policy would have a racist effect. I guess I just think there needs to be a different term for that versus, say, the people stumping for Trump on the grounds that he is the savior of the white race and the last chance for European Americans to "rise up" and "take what's theirs" or whatever the nonsense is.

Well, I don't think we really need a term to separate out people who want white-only neighbourhoods or apartment buildings for their flawed sense of security. Or people who cross the road when there's someone of colour walking towards them...

I recognise you're partially referring to economic security; but these people aren't calling for a Canadian wall as far as I know.

I guess I'm not feeling particularly sympathetic to the Trump supporter choosing to associate themselves with the preferred candidate of the KKK.

I'm not sure at what point one levels up from Racist Orc to Racist Dragon Knight.

 

[Holmes]

Interesting to see that Sanders is outspending Clinton in Illinois. I don't watch a lot of TV, but I've seen a ton of Clinton ads and none for Sanders here in Chicago. Maybe The Bern feels like he can't appeal to the crowd that watches Seinfeld reruns.

Sanders is clearly winning the yard sign battle in my (North Side) neighborhood though, by which I mean I've seen one Sanders yard sign to zero for Clinton. Lots of yard signs for local judicial races though.

I'm eager to see how things turn out here. I'd love to see how the results break down by precinct, or at the very least how the candidates do in various parts of the city.

Well Sanders will win the North Side obviously or keep it very competitive but will get blown out everywhere else.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I think it's more the urgency of the situation. Trump is now the heavy favorite for the nomination, whereas 5 weeks ago no states have voted and a lot of people could fool themselves into believing he would fizzle out.

I'd say it's more because he held the rally in Chicago, a fucking raucous and furiously liberal city, and in a part of the city that is specifically known for being diverse.

I'm with those who think he knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and engineered this whole thing to maximize media coverage leading into Tuesday.

 

[BoboBrazil]

I think it's more the urgency of the situation. Trump is now the heavy favorite for the nomination, whereas 5 weeks ago no states have voted and a lot of people could fool themselves into believing he would fizzle out.

Could be it, but they have to realize a Donald Trump in the general is the best thing for them. All of the other republican candidates are just as bad or worse and more electable.

An article posted where? Online? Links?

http://www.redstate.com/neil_steven...ters-protestors-visiting-donald-trump-events/

 

[johnsmith]

An article posted where? Online? Links?

http://www.redstate.com/neil_steven...ters-protestors-visiting-donald-trump-events/

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Well, I don't think we really need a term to separate out people who want white-only neighbourhoods or apartment buildings for their flawed sense of security. Or people who cross the road when there's someone of colour walking towards them...

I recognise you're partially referring to economic security; but these people aren't calling for a Canadian wall as far as I know.

I guess I'm not feeling particularly sympathetic to the Trump supporter choosing to associate themselves with the preferred candidate of the KKK.

It's not even really sympathy, so much as it is desire to try and understand these peoples' weird worldview on its own terms, because Trump is building a narrative that these people identify with, and the more blunt the dismissal of them, the deeper they'll be driven into that narrative, and the more likely a repeat of Trumpism in the future. Trump is saying shit that would obviously be racist in its outcome, but I think there's a large number of his supporters who don't really realize that. You, yourself, say that white people can convert to Islam, so a Trump supporter can just say that people need to be subjected to thorough background checks to screen for any history of attending Muslim houses of worship. This is a policy that could technically be argued as color blind, but it would nevertheless almost exclusively happen to target brown people. However, unless you are somewhat versed in the historical nature and contemporary functioning of racism, that "just happens to" may not seem as sinister to you as it should.

 

[Ophelion]

http://www.redstate.com/neil_steven...ters-protestors-visiting-donald-trump-events/

WOW!

Terribad advice. Let's just escalate this to warzone levels while we're at it.

 

[B-Dubs]

WOW!

Terribad advice. Let's just escalate this to warzone levels while we're at it.

Considering someone got the shit beat out of them at a rally just before this was written it makes sense that people who support guns as a self-defense measure would feel this way. They see what we see, the escalating violence of Trump's supporters, and want to combat it the only way they know how. Unfortunately they're idiots and their solution will just make it worse.

 

[East Lake]

That's the redstate writer being a smartass though. Young liberals aren't going to start rolling into Trump rallies with weapons.

 

[B-Dubs]

That's the redstate writer being a smartass though. Young liberals aren't going to start rolling into Trump rallies with weapons.

Well, from his responses to people calling him out in the comment section he seems fairly serious about this.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I honestly think there might be serious attempts on Trump's life if he gets the nomination.

 

[Cerium]

I honestly think there might be serious attempts on Trump's life if he gets the nomination.

I hope not. He's very beatable in a general election, assassinating him would be counterproductive.

 

[BoboBrazil]

I honestly think there might be serious attempts on Trump's life if he gets the nomination.

There would be for sure. He is going to need secret service on him 100% of the time. Also I'm seeing some stuff that some Bernie organizers are the ones that organized this protest at Trump's rally? Huge amounts of Bernie people there.

 

[pigeon]

It's not even really sympathy, so much as it is desire to try and understand these peoples' weird worldview on its own terms, because Trump is building a narrative that these people identify with, and the more blunt the dismissal of them, the deeper they'll be driven into that narrative, and the more likely a repeat of Trumpism in the future.

I don't believe this. I don't think there is a magical nice way to talk to a fearful authoritarian personality (that seems to be what you're describing) that will make them less drawn to authoritarianism in the future. I'm not sure why such a way would exist.

Trump is saying shit that would obviously be racist in its outcome, but I think there's a large number of his supporters who don't really realize that.

Because they don't want to realize it.

I don't consider that worthy of special pleading.

 

[Makai]

Let's just call a spade a spade. It's racism.

Because there is no way to test for "Muslimness." A white person can convert to Islam. There are secular people from the Middle East. The degree of adherence is going to vary.

The ban policy, and the people supporting it, ultimately boils down to wanting a "temporary" indefinite ban on brown people.

I was talking to an orthodox Jew the other day who claimed he couldn't get into some holy site because you need paperwork proving that you are Muslim. So if that's true, you could use that as a test. Of course, an immigrant could just hide these alleged papers.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

If I still lived in Chicago, I would have made plans to attend the rally and then slip out to the protest afterward, to be able to say I experienced the implosion of the GOP from both sides.

 

[The Technomancer]

Bleh...enthusiasm for Clinton edging back towards "well she's the least bad option" after today

 

[BoboBrazil]

It's kind of sad that protestors aren't going to Cruz, Rubio, or Kasich's events for the most part. Those guys are worse than Trump for the people protesting against him, but they don't see it.

 

[B-Dubs]

I was talking to an orthodox Jew the other day who claimed he couldn't get into some holy site because you need paperwork proving that you are Muslim. So if that's true, you could use that as a test. Of course, an immigrant could just hide these alleged papers.

If I remember right you get that from an Imam, so not every Muslim has one even though most will at some point in their lives. Basically they get it so they can make the pilgrimage to Mecca and unless they're going more than once there's not much need to hang onto the papers after they're done, other than sentimental reasons I suppose.

 

[East Lake]

I don't believe this. I don't think there is a magical nice way to talk to a fearful authoritarian personality (that seems to be what you're describing) that will make them less drawn to authoritarianism in the future. I'm not sure why such a way would exist.

What is it about authoritarianism as opposed to something like bigotry that makes it impossible to change psychologically?

 

[HUELEN10]

Bleh...enthusiasm for Clinton edging back towards "well she's the least bad option" after today

Welcome to the club pal

Spoiler

though I am on the opposite side, I know the feeling

.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I don't believe this. I don't think there is a magical nice way to talk to a fearful authoritarian personality (that seems to be what you're describing) that will make them less drawn to authoritarianism in the future. I'm not sure why such a way would exist.



Because they don't want to realize it.

I don't consider that worthy of special pleading.

I'm not talking about a "magical nice way". Trump is building a narrative that tells people that the country is basically on the verge of collapse, that our way of life is eroding, that the world is leaving them behind, a message that is frankly probably pretty attractive to a lot of working-class misfits, and seeing that the other side has already dismissed them as reprehensible and doesn't seem even remotely interesting in understanding or empathizing with them only plays right into that. The left is always calling for empathy, but empathy is a two-way street that requires trying to understand (which is not excusing or validating) others' perspective even if their overall viewpoint is not defensible.

As to the latter point, I'm not "pleading" for anything, other than an accurate understanding of the Trump phenomenon that I think is obsured when the whole thing is just bluntly dismissed as mere racism, when I think there is an odd constellation of things in play.

 

[royalan]

It's kind of sad that protestors aren't going to Cruz, Rubio, or Kasich's events for the most part. Those guys are worse than Trump for the people protesting against him, but they don't see it.

Why would they go after them? Trump's the clear front-runner.

 

[BoboBrazil]

Why would they go after them? Trump's the clear front-runner.

Do you think they are going to move over to one of the other republican candidates if they get the nomination instead? I doubt it, because the media 's agenda is to paste Trump as the racist that must be stopped.

 

[Ophelion]

What is it about authoritarianism as opposed to something like bigotry that makes it impossible to change psychologically?

It's the ringleader.

They're submitting their will to their chosen strongman, in this case Trump. He reinforces and validates their choices. They in turn invest more and more deeply in him and his doctrine. The most vicious of circles.

Run of the mill bigotry is just you being shitty on your own. Authoritarianism let's you go, "I'm not being shitty. This guy says I'm right, so I'm right." Not to mention, it lets bigots present a united front behind their shitty arch-bully. People are always more susceptible to doubt when they're on their own.

 

[RastaMentality]

Bleh...enthusiasm for Clinton edging back towards "well she's the least bad option" after today

Obama did have this same thing going in 2012.

 

[Zona]

Well, I just got back from the bar with my friends. Each and every one of them are Trump supporters. They are all convinced with a faith I find enviable of Trumps inevitability in the general election. I mean absolutely convicted that he will win. I swear to god I am going to hold an election party, well stocked with Champaign. The moment it's called for Hillary I'm going to pop a bottle and hand out condolence cards. Generally I'm quite, but I will be positively shameless in my gloating. I will make Adam proud!

And, if a black swan event happens and he ends up president, well, there are worse ways to go then suicide by Champaign.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

It feels like Hillary is trying to bring dogwhistles to the left but is just doing a really bad job at it.

Like, the lawsuits against gun manufacturers topic has her position as basically nonsensical unless she's trying to signal a backdoor way to banning production of guns (because who would produce guns if they could be sued for those guns killing people? They're meant to kill people) to liberals while trying to have it covered in legal talk that conservatives don't view it as a gun control idea.

It feels like she was trying to compare Trump and Trump's supporters to the Charleston shooter while covering it in law and peace stuff tonight.

... But these messages aren't coming through at all and they just leave everyone confused.

She needs to study more Nixon.

 

[East Lake]

It's the ringleader.

They're submitting their will to their chosen strongman, in this case Trump. He reinforces and validates their choices. They in turn invest more and more deeply in him and his doctrine. The most vicious of circles.

Run of the mill bigotry is just you being shitty on your own. Authoritarianism let's you go, "I'm not being shitty. This guy says I'm right, so I'm right." Not to mention, it lets bigots present a united front behind their shitty arch-bully. People are always more susceptible to doubt when they're on their own.

Nearly every issue has its ringleaders though. Racists, homophobes, the religious, or meat eaters all could easily have been substituted in for authoriatarian in that sentence and they probably have their own "authoritarian" qualities.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Every Republican candidate trumpets that the US is going to hell in a handbasket. Trump happens to blame that on Muslims, the Chinese, the Mexicans overtly rather than covertly. He appeals to a base instinct to attribute one's own negative outcomes externally. He appeals to fears of the other.

He certainly isn't the first authoritarian nationalist to resort to othering and blaming minorities for a country's problems.

I can fully understand that. While still finding him, his platform and many of his supporters condoning this quite vile.

 

[Mario]

Well, I just got back from the bar with my friends. Each and every one of them are Trump supporters. They are all convinced with a faith I find enviable of Trumps inevitability in the general election. I mean absolutely convicted that he will win. I swear to god I am going to hold an election party, well stocked with Champaign. The moment it's called for Hillary I'm going to pop a bottle and hand out condolence cards. Generally I'm quite, but I will be positively shameless in my gloating. I will make Adam proud!

And, if a black swan event happens and he ends up president, well, there are worse ways to go then suicide by Champaign.

Surely drinking Trump wine would be sweeter?

 

[Jarmel]

Someone is totally going to die at these rallies aren't they? This is just going to harden Trump supporters.

 

[Cerium]

Sri Srinivasan for Supreme Court is hovering around 50 cents on PredictIt.

Could be a quick way to double your money. Nomination is supposedly coming next week.

 

[CCS]

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Welp, wasn't wrong. Fuck me Trump's supporters are terrifying. Anyone who says they vote for him just to "burn things down" can go straight to hell.

 

[Cerium]

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Welp, wasn't wrong. Fuck me Trump's supporters are terrifying. Anyone who says they vote for him just to "burn things down" can go straight to hell.

Trump is actually quite secular, a very traditional fascist.

 

[CCS]

Donald "I'm starting to wonder myself whether he was born in this country" Trump is actually quite secular, a very traditional fascist.

True. A large part of his support isn't though, and he's keen to at least attempt to portray himself as religious.

 

[HK-47]

Rich coming from a man who doesnt seem to know where he is in space and time at any given moment.

 

[Cerium]

And in some very predictable news, Ted Cruz's fans are pissed at him for blaming Trump for liberal savagery.

I think this could win him Ohio. A riot in Cleveland today would seal it.