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PoliGAF 2016 |OT6| Delete your accounts

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Holmes

Member
@Rasta I might also be going to the Bill Clinton rally tomorrow in Sacramento.

I really want to see Hillary and my fear is that with the primary over, she might not really see much benefit to holding many rallies here in California so I won't get the chance. I know she's having one in Riverside but that's ridiculously far.
 
@Rasta I might also be going to the Bill Clinton rally tomorrow in Sacramento.

I really want to see Hillary and my fear is that with the primary over, she might not really see much benefit to holding many rallies here in California so I won't get the chance. I know she's having one in Riverside but that's ridiculously far.
That's why it sucks I never got to see Obama when he came to Texas back in 08. Hillary came to SF with Boxer but I had a test. Is she really not coming up here again?
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
LOL - John Oliver shitting on the Republican/Democrat caucus process while shitting on Bernie Sanders.

Might actually get me to watch an episode.
Has he stopped talking to imaginary people yet?

Oh, and lots of good History novels on the Audible 4.95 sale, probably the cheapest you will get many of them.

Including
A Man on the Moon: The Voyages of the Apollo Astronauts
The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945
Foundation: The History of England from Its Earliest Beginnings to the Tudors: The History of England, Book 1
The Republic of Pirates: Being the True and Surprising Story of the Caribbean Pirates and the Man Who Brought Them Down
 

Holmes

Member
That's why it sucks I never got to see Obama when he came to Texas back in 08. Hillary came to SF with Boxer but I had a test. Is she really not coming up here again?
Hillary also came to Oakland on a day when my mom was visiting. I missed it. Hopefully she'll come back to the Bay Area. There's still 2 weeks to go.
 
The reason people don't accumulate capital, in general, is that the rentiers capture it and pay them wages.

The reason the wages don't include the value of the capital being produced (as free markets should require them to do) is that the lash of hunger forces people to sell their labor for under correct market value.

Remove the lash of hunger, people get paid more for their labor, they have enough money to accumulate capital, and they can take control of the means of production, etc., etc., socialist utopia.

This is clearly simplistic, but that's how I would approach the problem.

I think another problem with stagnating wages is that companies are far less invested in their workers in modern times (thin correlates with the death of unions). We used to be 60+% invested in wall street as country in the 50s (?? don't have the numbers in front of me) to now being about 30%. I'm not sure how the government would bring back stock options to employees outside of strengthening unions but it is something that would bridge this income inequality gap and actually make trickle down economics more than a passing joke.
 
Before Trump, we had Inside Out, a movie about how embracing your own personal sadness can be good.

After Trump, we have Angry Birds, a movie about how letting in immigrants will cause massive amounts of crime.
 
This is clearly simplistic, but that's how I would approach the problem.
It sounds unworkable more than simply simplistic.

Essentially your premise, or I guess the socialist premise, as I understand it is that all work performed by employees is inherently undervalued because corporate entities retain earnings and distribute this as profit to shareholders or owners - the rentiers.

I don't know how the implementation of a basic income changes the fundamental premise of a corporate entity. It would improve employee bargaining power, shift the supply curve and drive up the cost structure of companies, sure. People would have more money although the cost of goods would presumably rise commensurately.

I don't know that it suddenly means we all own Google.

Further, where does the basic income come from to begin with? Taxation on people (and corporations which are ultimately borne by people) I presume.

I don't particularly think the proposed system works with the way people operate. Which is probably why it's never been shown to work very well.

I'm not sure why I'd engage in private enterprise where the endgame sees whatever I create distributed to whoever I happen to employ in the delivery?

I feel like I should note again, I'm not particularly wedded to any particularly ideological system as opposed to what is functional in a real world scenario.
 
pejoPgK.jpg


When asked once if ever in the course of his presidency he had come into secret knowledge that he must never share for the sake of the well being of the country, the response of Jimmy Carter's was enigmatic, and brief: "Yes."
 
if we actually create a reasonable social safety net (basic income) it will just lead to worker-owned businesses taking over since they can afford to accumulate capital.
No it won't. You're arguing that workers with basic income will have more capital than investment infrastructure. But all of their income will be going to rent and food.

I am pretty optimistic though.
Why are you optimistic? The history of communism and the empirical evidence for capitalism and scarcity should convince you otherwise.

But in general, like, capitalism as a system may not be incompatible with welfare but most of the arguments about why capitalism is good kind of are.
Maybe you're right. But subsidies are not inherently anti-capitalism and in fact the theory of subsidizing goods arose from our better understanding of incentive models via economic study.

Venezuela was doing pretty well until we invented fracking! Thanks Hillary!
There is an entire Wikipedia article on the history of the Venezuelan economy that disagrees with you. The socialist revolution decreased oil production, took homes away from people, increased poverty, and completely hampered Venezuela's ability to bounce back from the global recession even though it's neighbors were fine by 2010. This is because socialism is inherently ineffecient; markets are distributed information systems, and the price is the medium of that information. There is no way for a single entity to have the same collective knowledge as an entire economy. My empirical proof: the Soviet union had no idea what to price things, so they sent researches to Western Europe and copied their prices occasionally.

I mean, "this is a good way for rich people to maintain power" is definitely how I would sell social democracy to America, but I'm not sure I agree with your analysis. I think without a coercive labor market you end up with socialism eventually.
This is actually a tautology and it's because of the way you get rid of coercive labor markets. Capitalism does not exist because people are afraid of starving. It exists because people have wants and desires. If you give people basic income they just take their extra income and spend it on other things (they won't actually have extra income because of market forces. But I digress). The only way to make our society un-coercive is to remove choice. At which point you have already created socialism.
 
Is it just me or are housing threads always annoying?

It just always seems to me to be a bunch of people at the start of their career wanting to live like kings and complaining that they're priced out (If they don't adjust their living habits) of popular areas

When do you see people complaining of tenant harassment, familys being evicted, etc?

It's all "I'm in ohio and SF/LA/NYC prices are ridiculous compared to Ohio"
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Is it just me or are housing threads always annoying?

It just always seems to me to be a bunch of people at the start of their career wanting to live like kings and complaining that they're priced out (If they don't adjust their living habits) of popular areas

When do you see people complaining of tenant harassment, familys being evicted, etc?

It's all "I'm in ohio and SF/LA/NYC prices are ridiculous compared to Ohio"

Well, I mean it's not like NYC housing prices aren't insane and really stupid. They seriously do need to be brought down a bit. There's a reason the rent is too damn high guy caught on the way he did.
 
Is it just me or are housing threads always annoying?

It just always seems to me to be a bunch of people at the start of their career wanting to live like kings and complaining that they're priced out (If they don't adjust their living habits) of popular areas

When do you see people complaining of tenant harassment, familys being evicted, etc?

It's all "I'm in ohio and SF/LA/NYC prices are ridiculous compared to Ohio"
This is one of the things that keeps me where I am. I have a 3 bedroom apartment, 1600 sq feet for $570 a month, including per rent. Good neighborhood, walking distance to grocery and resturants. I move a bit closer to Columbus... And I'll have to double or triple that. I'm a cheap bitch.

On the down side...I have to live in Ohio. Kidding.
 

User1608

Banned
pejoPgK.jpg


When asked once if ever in the course of his presidency he had come into secret knowledge that he must never share for the sake of the well being of the country, the response of Jimmy Carter's was enigmatic, and brief: "Yes."
I had no idea, pretty neat factoid!
 
pejoPgK.jpg


When asked once if ever in the course of his presidency he had come into secret knowledge that he must never share for the sake of the well being of the country, the response of Jimmy Carter's was enigmatic, and brief: "Yes."

I remember once in 2009 the president had some unscheduled meetings with the CDC as well as people from NASA, alongside the typical meetings/briefings he'd have on national security. Might have been one of the first and only times I saw NASA people around. Anyway a few hours later someone asked "so did you learn anything cool!?" and Obama just deadpanned "some shit I wish I didn't know."

After a few seconds he winked but damn, I still wonder about that lol. I believe in aliens solely because it seems like the odds are pretty good that something exists out there.
 

Crayons

Banned
This is one of the things that keeps me where I am. I have a 3 bedroom apartment, 1600 sq feet for $570 a month, including per rent. Good neighborhood, walking distance to grocery and resturants. I move a bit closer to Columbus... And I'll have to double or triple that. I'm a cheap bitch.

On the down side...I have to live in Ohio. Kidding.

super jealous

my parents are paying almost $1200 a month for a one bedroom in an ehh neighborhood that's over an hour away from manhattan

not cool
 

pigeon

Banned
It sounds unworkable more than simply simplistic.

Essentially your premise, or I guess the socialist premise, as I understand it is that all work performed by employees is inherently undervalued because corporate entities retain earnings and distribute this as profit to shareholders or owners - the rentiers.

I don't know how the implementation of a basic income changes the fundamental premise of a corporate entity. It would improve employee bargaining power, shift the supply curve and drive up the cost structure of companies, sure. People would have more money although the cost of goods would presumably rise commensurately.

I don't know that it suddenly means we all own Google.

That's not what I'm suggesting. It means that, if people have an idea for a business, they can just form their own. Over time, people own more businesses (or cooperatively own them) and work less for hire. Obviously I'm not saying suddenly all our companies become socialist enterprises overnight.

Rentiers work because they control the means of production, because they accumulate capital, which is needed to build the means of production. Give people capital and they can do it for themselves.

Further, where does the basic income come from to begin with? Taxation on people (and corporations which are ultimately borne by people) I presume.

Yeah. So? Taxation is, like, a pretty normal concept.

I don't particularly think the proposed system works with the way people operate. Which is probably why it's never been shown to work very well.

There haven't been any serious investigations of basic income as far as I know. Vox had an article about this a little bit ago.

I'm not sure why I'd engage in private enterprise where the endgame sees whatever I create distributed to whoever I happen to employ in the delivery?

People engage in private enterprise under heavy tax regimes all the time.

No it won't. You're arguing that workers with basic income will have more capital than investment infrastructure. But all of their income will be going to rent and food.

No it won't. Why would you suggest that? If basic income covers staples, then obviously the proceeds of your labor would be in excess of basic needs and you'd be free to accumulate it.

Why are you optimistic? The history of communism and the empirical evidence for capitalism and scarcity should convince you otherwise.

You're going to need to offer more of an argument if you want this to be a useful comment. I can assure you I am familiar with the basic history of the world and it hasn't changed my position.

There is an entire Wikipedia article on the history of the Venezuelan economy that disagrees with you. The socialist revolution decreased oil production, took homes away from people, increased poverty, and completely hampered Venezuela's ability to bounce back from the global recession even though it's neighbors were fine by 2010. This is because socialism is inherently ineffecient; markets are distributed information systems, and the price is the medium of that information. There is no way for a single entity to have the same collective knowledge as an entire economy. My empirical proof: the Soviet union had no idea what to price things, so they sent researches to Western Europe and copied their prices occasionally.

You're kind of conflating a lot of things here. I'm mostly talking about a social democracy transitioning to a socialist economy. You're talking about a command economy and how it's inefficient in distributing capital. The two are not necessarily linked. For example, if we lived in an America basically like today except that corporations were illegal and all businesses were required to be partnerships between all employees, it would be more or less socialist without eliminating a market economy.

This is actually a tautology and it's because of the way you get rid of coercive labor markets. Capitalism does not exist because people are afraid of starving. It exists because people have wants and desires.

Nonsense. I assure you people have wants and desires under all sorts of economic regimes. Despite what you may learn in school, capitalism is not the logical endpoint of all civilization, just as humanity is not the logical endpoint of all evolution. It's just what's hip right now.

If you give people basic income they just take their extra income and spend it on other things

So? That's their choice. If they want to accumulate capital they can. If they would rather take their wealth out in immediate value that's fine too.

(they won't actually have extra income because of market forces. But I digress).

That's not how commoditization works.

The only way to make our society un-coercive is to remove choice.

I have no idea what this is supposed to even mean.

The point is that right now, if you don't sell your labor, you will starve*. So if I have a job to offer you, and it's onerous or unfair, but you have no other option (even no other convenient option), you have to take the job.

That's coercion!

I would like to get rid of that. If you don't want to sell your labor, you shouldn't have to. That is how a functional free market operates.


* You won't starve, because as the dumpster next to any bakery will tell you, the market price of food is zero. But we'll actively reduce the value of the food by dumping it in the trash and making you humiliate yourself to get it, because, again, it's necessary for capitalism to operate.
 
super jealous

my parents are paying almost $1200 a month for a one bedroom in an ehh neighborhood that's over an hour away from manhattan

not cool

I know, right? It's one of the few good things about living where I do. If I go back to Florida, I'll pay $900 for something half this size. If I move closer to Columbus, same thing. I just...meh. I'm cheap at the end of the day. I'd love to live in a big city, but I don't want to pay that much rent.
 

Crayons

Banned
I know, right? It's one of the few good things about living where I do. If I go back to Florida, I'll pay $900 for something half this size. If I move closer to Columbus, same thing. I just...meh. I'm cheap at the end of the day. I'd love to live in a big city, but I don't want to pay that much rent.

once i move out i kind of want to live in a city in like the deep south or something

the only thing is people hate the gays there
 
I mean I'm somewhat confused about what you're proposing. We all become self-employed? Or employ ourselves in collectives. And these various collectives outcompete established enterprises?

On taxation, my query is around the endgame scenario. We all work in these self-owned collectives where we all collect the reward as owners. These entities operate for profit? Or not? We pay taxes. And these are returned to us as basic income? But we also have free services?

On the generally not working that well... I'm talking more about socialist economics.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
You'd just be replacing corporations with cartels because of how human nature works. The successful would group together and force out the weak.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
It's not really complicated. let's say you are a chef. You work at Chilis because you need a job to not die. If you no longer need a job to not die, still like to be a chef, but hate Chilis now you can open a food truck that only serves quesadillas or whatever sounds fulfilling to you. If you fail so what.

There would be more small enterprise because the opportunity cost in the form of possible catastrophic risk is reduced.
 
The other underlying assumption is that everyone actually has produce of value to anyone.

The world economy as some sort of public funded Etsy.

To be blunt, they don't.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
That's not really different than now. A lot of people are bad at the jobs they already, it's not like they are going to magically be valuable resources after the fact.

If they don't have products of value their business will fail, and they can find something else to occupy their time.
 
once i move out i kind of want to live in a city in like the deep south or something

the only thing is people hate the gays there

The south is complicated. Most people are decent, hard working people. You have assholes but you have them everywhere. I do love the south. But i can't say if live just anywhere in the south. Getting bashed once was enough for a lifetime.

It's not really complicated. let's say you are a chef. You work at Chilis because you need a job to not die. If you no longer need a job to not die, still like to be a chef, but hate Chilis now you can open a food truck that only serves quesadillas or whatever sounds fulfilling to you. If you fail so what.

There would be more small enterprise because the opportunity cost in the form of possible catastrophic risk is reduced.
But if we we are all taking all of this risk, who is paying for the universal income? If people are just doing whatever for a laugh, I'm just not sure how this really ends up. Given the choice I'd be sat home in my pants all day doing fuck all. I don't feel that I would be entitled to anything for doing that, you know? I mean, I don't want a society where anyone is homeless, hungry or without medical care. At the same time, though, I don't know that removing all incentive to work outside self fulfillment is a good idea either.
 

sphagnum

Banned
But if we we are all taking all of this risk, who is paying for the universal income? If people are just doing whatever for a laugh, I'm just not sure how this really ends up. Given the choice I'd be sat home in my pants all day doing fuck all. I don't feel that I would be entitled to anything for doing that, you know? I mean, I don't want a society where anyone is homeless, hungry or without medical care. At the same time, though, I don't know that removing all incentive to work outside self fulfillment is a good idea either.

Assuming we can get automation and AI up to the task, most jobs won't need to be done. There's no reason to motivate humans to go out and work for anything other than self fulfillment in that scenario outside of some particular fields that would still need humans running the show.
 
Assuming we can get automation and AI up to the task, most jobs won't need to be done. There's no reason to motivate humans to go out and work for anything other than self fulfillment in that scenario outside of some particular fields that would still need humans running the show.
Some things maybe. But without the need for employability what's the drive to self fulfillment through education and the like. I just don't see how a society that is essentially about nothing more than consuming resources with no driving force makes sense. Following your passion is fine, but, not to sound like a total ass, there would have to be some mechanism to encourage people to be productive. Without it, there just nothing to motivate a person to become educated or skilled. Who cares if you can support yourself by getting good at whatever you're passionate about when you know you're going to be provided for anyway?
 
Jobbik, a far-right, anti-immigration, populist and economic protectionist party, won 20 percent of the vote in parliamentary elections in 2014, making it Hungary’s third-largest party. Its policy platform includes holding a referendum on membership in the European Union and a call to “stop hushing up such taboo issues” as “the Zionist Israel’s efforts to dominate Hungary and the world.”

Man, Austria and Hungary still hate Jews so much.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-wing-austria-hungary.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
 
That's not really different than now. A lot of people are bad at the jobs they already, it's not like they are going to magically be valuable resources after the fact.

If they don't have products of value their business will fail, and they can find something else to occupy their time.
But whatever evil corporate empire they're working for made a product or service that people wanted. It was bankrolled by people or other companies seeing value and growth potential. They may have suboptimal productivity.

But publicly funded Etsy-for-no one junk is a different scenario.

And we're not in some post-scarcity robot paradise yet. Besides they'll rise up and kill us anyway.
 
I remember once in 2009 the president had some unscheduled meetings with the CDC as well as people from NASA, alongside the typical meetings/briefings he'd have on national security. Might have been one of the first and only times I saw NASA people around. Anyway a few hours later someone asked "so did you learn anything cool!?" and Obama just deadpanned "some shit I wish I didn't know."

After a few seconds he winked but damn, I still wonder about that lol. I believe in aliens solely because it seems like the odds are pretty good that something exists out there.
Right now we're fiending to know what they know. But it's probably some really gnarly shit. The type of shit that obama said. They have an alien body, or some technology that is not of earthly material and they cannot explain, stashed away in the bowels of some military base.
Read about the blue room at wright patterson, you unbelievers, or about the life of walter brazel. Or don't, so you can avoid being spooked and anxious for the foreseeable future

I swear he used to have a wikipedia page; the aliens must have got to it
 

Wilsongt

Member
lol

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/05/22/3780685/nra-wants-ex-felons-guns-not-voting-rights/


LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY — The National Rifle Association wants convicted felons to be able to purchase firearms, yet its leaders are lambasting efforts to restore voting rights to the same people.

At the NRA’s annual meeting on Friday, Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, the most prominent leader of the powerful gun lobby, criticized recent efforts to end the disenfranchisement of former felons in states across the country. He claimed that the reforms were all made in order to get Clinton elected president:

Different states have different processes in places for ex-felons to regain their gun rights — much like voting rights — and Republican lawmakers have tried in recent years to loosen those gun laws. Last year, Rep. Ken Buck (R-CO) proposed an amendment to allow all ex-felons to petition the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for restoration of their gun ownership rights. “America is a land of second chances,” Buck said on the House floor in support of the legislation. “One mistake should not define your future.”

The amendment failed, but the NRA remains committed to passing similar legislation.

The NRA has also staunchly fought legislation on the national level and in states to close the gun show loophole, which currently allows anyone to purchase a weapon at a gun show without being subjected to a background check. An investigation by pro-gun reform group Mayors Against Illegal Guns recently found that at least one in 30 potential buyers on the website Armslist.com had felony or domestic abuse records that barred them from purchasing and possessing guns.

Tha NRA truly is a vile organization.
 
re: that poll, i'd be down with entering a coma between june 7 and july 25 where i only wake up for my brother's wedding

re: the NRA, wayne lapierre is the primest candidate for death by irony
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I'll try to draft a more substantive post later tonight but I'll have to fudge a few things for political reasons.

A lot of it I'd have to get to specific that would require a lot of background. But It's basically this song mixed with the fact that certain people love to talk the talk but not walk the walk.

I mean I was disillusioned about certain aspects of the "future of the party" but excited about others.

Growing up in the south and seeing now New York (and its combination of upstate and downstate) its kind of further confirmed my fundamental understanding of politics.

I'd like to hear more.

I've mostly only been to a few public policy town hall type meetings, and my big takeaway is it's extremely hard to figure out something everyone can be happy with. Even on things everyone agrees with it's basically impossible to get people to focus in the same direction. It's extremely frustrating, but there's never really been high school type drama with that.

The most interesting thing is seeing new people show up all excited about getting involved, and watch as their spirit gets visibly crushed by the difficulty of democracy.

I've also been to a few GotV meetings and gatherings, and they're not so bad. It seems like most people there are just socialites looking for ways to be social, but there's nothing wrong with that.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I am the poors.

Also, I don't think social democracy is a perfect system. I'm a relatively practical person with no interest in waiting for perfect.

"The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist."

JMK with dropping some hot truth on y'all.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Also having a market economy =/= capitalism, just from a technical perspective. A market economy is one that uses a pricing mechanism; capitalism is a socioeconomic structure that, as an ideal type, allows for complete private ownership of capital (and conversely socialism is one that has communal ownership of capital). Market socialism is a pretty old and storied idea, at least a far back as Proudhon. I agree that's mostly a conceptual matter, but it is true all the same.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Jesus Christ. CBS running with statistical dead heat and virtual tie between Trump and Shillary, vs Bernie which is leading Trump by a billion precentage points.
 
Even Mr. Oliver has had it with Sanders supporters, lol.

DWS should have brought up the John Edwards situation as a practical time to use Supers.

Ha ha ha John Oliver proves himself once again to be the Superior Jon Stewart.

Unlike Stewart who bought into Clinton is a total fake who doesn't even know what she herself believes in.


Oliver describes public perception of her perfectly: "Someone who exhibits too much or not enough of every human quality depending on who you're asking"

That is such a brilliant succinct way to describe the frankly irrational and ludicrous way people talk about her.


That said his point about super delegates was weak, they're also there to ensure that in the case of a larger race that the winner via plurality can hopefully get bumped up to majority to avoid an ugly contested convention.

Also that MSNBC quoting of the Wyoming Caucus is frankly irresponsible journalism, adding in the supers for the state into the count to act as if Clinton was stealing from Sanders, acting like the number of delegates available via the caucus was 18 and not 14 is piss poor journalism, not to mention then actually bitching about it on air.
 
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