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[RastaMentality]

How do people still fail to understand the actual meaning of freedom of speech?

it's one of the many things so many americans just don't understand.

 

[TheWasTheJoke]

Blocking the doors to a building and engaging in violent acts to scare away patrons is absolutely a violation of free speech. If you engage in peaceful protests while Milo peddles his fairy-tales inside, then you show him you are united and strong in opposition to him, you go violent, you martyr his cause and continue to convince the country you don't respect the constitution.

 

[royalan]

Blocking the doors to a building and engaging in violent acts to scare away patrons is absolutely a violation of free speech. If you engage in peaceful protests while Milo peddles his fairy-tales inside, then you show him you are united and strong in opposition to him, you go violent, you martyr his cause and continue to convince the country you don't respect the constitution.

This is what Milo said about a specific trans student at UW Milwaukee when he spoke there:

“I see you don’t even read your own student media. He got into the women’s room the way liberals always operate, using the government and the courts to weasel their way where they don’t belong. In this case he made a Title IX complaint. Title IX is a set of rules to protect women on campus effectively. It’s couched in the language of equality, but it’s really about women, which under normal circumstances would be fine, except for how it’s implemented. Now it is used to put men in to women’s bathrooms. I have known some passing trannies in my life. Trannies — you’re not allowed to say that. I’ve known some passing trannies, which is to say transgender people who pass as the gender they would like to be considered.”

He then referred to the photo, which was still onscreen, and said, “Well, no. The way that you know he’s failing is I’d almost still bang him.” The audience laughed.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/12/milo-yiannopoulos-harassed-a-trans-student-at-uw-milwaukee.html

Oh, and he had her picture and name displayed on a giant screen during his comments.

So, no. You do what you have to in order to keep this human filth out. Fuck his free speech.

 

[Goodstyle]

Gorsuch may be a radical in moderate clothing. Watch out for him.

 

[Chumley]

Blocking the doors to a building and engaging in violent acts to scare away patrons is absolutely a violation of free speech. If you engage in peaceful protests while Milo peddles his fairy-tales inside, then you show him you are united and strong in opposition to him, you go violent, you martyr his cause and continue to convince the country you don't respect the constitution.

Too fucking bad. Peaceful protest isn't doing shit with these people. I don't care how politely they discuss ethnic cleansing, genocide, and holocaust denial. This is a time of hate and they brought it all on themselves.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

I keep finding myself dwelling on that line from the old Deus Ex HR trailer...

"It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."

 

[Sibylus]

This is what Milo said about a specific trans student at UW Milwaukee when he spoke there:



http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/12/milo-yiannopoulos-harassed-a-trans-student-at-uw-milwaukee.html

Oh, and he had her picture and name displayed on a giant screen during his comments.

So, no. You do what you have to in order to keep this human filth out. Fuck his free speech.

Wisdom. These aren't normal times and these aren't normal political disagreements.

 

[The Adder]

That 'religious freedom' EO goes through and I'm going to loudly and openly oppose Trump at work and point them to the chapter and verse that requires me to do so.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

That 'religious freedom' EO goes through and I'm going to loudly and openly oppose Trump at work and point them to the chapter and verse that requires me to do so.

I wish they would at least have the "discrimination is legal against these people" things apply to people who think Jesus visited America.

Come on, do it, do it, do it.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

four more years of this shit, maybe eight.

I'm gonna say 4, maybe less.

In trumps 1st day, him and the GOP are undoubtedly going to fuck things up for everyone. No way they last 4 years with this 'mandate'.

 

[Pixieking]

Maybe

now hear me out

we win millennials by pushing an agenda that they want?

That happens when society has been atomized and everyone has been turned into a consumer whose primary motivation is "do x, feel good."

Two questions:

1) What counts as a millennial? When do you have to be born? Because I pray to god I'm not one.

2) If millennials can't be arsed to vote against an environment destroying party and a sexual assaulting dick, I'm tempted to say they just aren't worth it. Selfish pricks.

(only half-joking here, but I've not had my usual amount of coffee, so... )

U.S. military officials told Reuters that Trump approved his first covert counterterrorism operation without sufficient intelligence, ground support or adequate backup preparations.

Well, I thought we already knew Trump wasn't sufficiently intelligent.

*ba-dum-tsh*

Stopping Milo from giving his speech or whatever is not a win. I admit it is a guilty pleasure in seeing him having to cancel. But this is not a good thing. UC Berkley is a public forum. Freedom of speech is a real thing that has been averted today. If it were a peaceful protest then we'd be golden. I wish it was a peaceful protest, because Milo is obviously a disgusting "person" who we should not be violent over... it's just not worth it.

At what point is freedom of speech hate speech? If this were Bannon, Spencer or David Duke espousing White Nationalist pride with dog-whistles calling for violence, what then? At some point, somebody's freedom of speech has to be curtailed, otherwise you're just going to let the next Hitler come to power...

Oh, wait, it's too late for that.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

How do people still fail to understand the actual meaning of freedom of speech?

I personally think understanding first amendment rights is an important topic, so I invite all discussion and viewpoints on the topic.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Are these protests going to become a movement in US politics like the Tea Party did? If so can we get a cool name?

 

[Chumley]

Two questions:

1) What counts as a millennial? When do you have to be born? Because I pray to god I'm not one.

2) If millennials can't be arsed to vote against an environment destroying party and a sexual assaulting dick, I'm tempted to say they just aren't worth it. Selfish pricks.

(only half-joking here, but I've not had my usual amount of coffee, so... )



Well, I thought we already knew Trump wasn't sufficiently intelligent.

*ba-dum-tsh*



At what point is freedom of speech hate speech? If this were Bannon, Spencer or David Duke espousing White Nationalist pride with dog-whistles calling for violence, what then? At some point, somebody's freedom of speech has to be curtailed, otherwise you're just going to let the next Hitler come to power...

Oh, wait, it's too late for that.

Bannon and Milo have been using hate speech for years. To Trumpers hate speech doesn't exist, no matter what they say they want it protected. And yet they constantly tell liberals to shut up and stop speaking. I wonder why.

 

[Funkyhamster]

The Electronic Intifada is an extreeeeeemely bad site that peddles in anti-Israel stories from conspiracy theorists that think the Jews did 9/11.

I would wait until at least Mother Jones or The Intercept reviewed this information.

For what it's worth, the email seems legit, in that the details all check out. Vin Rouge is right next to Duke campus, so an early dinner there makes sense (good place btw). The more puzzling question is why a journalism professor would pass the email to such a questionable news website.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Are these protests going to become a movement in US politics like the Tea Party did? If so can we get a cool name?

"Resistance" fucking sucks as a name, but it's what people are going by now.

Even "Green Tea Party" sounded better.

 

[Chumley]

"Resistance" fucking sucks as a name, but it's what people are going by now.

Even "Green Tea Party" sounded better.

"The Resistance" is better than any kind of god damn Tea Party.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

People need to understand that the neo-Nazi playbook is to rely on you giving them a platform (and I'm going to emphasize that allowing them on stage is directly giving them a platform) to spread this shit.

Let me ask you this:do you think creationism should be taught in biology? Just to teach the controversy?

Of course not. It has no place there. But saying this is restricting what teachers can say in certain contexts. We all do this, and more people should do this with Nazis. My relatives didn't die fighting Nazis for chumps to give them a stage and a microphone.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

I've also seen Indivisible used. Come on guys we need a better name for sure.

 

[TheWasTheJoke]

Yes the world would probably be a better place if Milo was barred from ever speaking again, but were not dealing with individuals or events here, were discussing principles. By normalising the repression of free speech of supposedly damaging individuals, your allowing that same justification to be used whenever a group perceives an opinion or speaker to be to harmful to be allowed to participate in public discourse. MLK might have never given his speeches in a world without absolute inalienable protections of free speech, the harm goes both ways.

Also Milo already has a platform, the internet, his supporters will hear him whether people stop them or not

On a separate topic, Trump berating Turnbull seems to have gone down well with conservatives here who admire him for allegedly standing up for "his country first". Its looking more and more likely then that far-right populism will become the mainstream conservative doctrine in most Western countries which of course is a very scary thing.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Yes the world would probably be a better place if Milo was barred from ever speaking again, but were not dealing with individuals or events here, were discussing principles. By normalising the repression of free speech of supposedly damaging individuals, your allowing that same justification to be used whenever a group perceives an opinion or speaker is too harmful for public discourse. MLK might have never given his speeches in a world with absolute inalienable protections of free speech, the harm goes both ways.

A lot of countries have banned Nazis and seem to be doing alright. Instead we decided that advocating genocide is just another political opinion.

 

[Pixieking]

Bannon and Milo have been using hate speech for years. To Trumpers hate speech doesn't exist, no matter what they say they want it protected. And yet they constantly tell liberals to shut up and stop speaking. I wonder why.

Yup. I mean, there's obvious limits to freedom of speech, but most of the examples I can think of are obscenity/sex related (I was just reading the Wiki for Mike Diana, for instance). So it's not a hard-and-fast law, it's something which has an actual point that you can cross. But of course, liberals are fine with most speech, and the right is constantly trying to shut down discourse. Liberals just don't have the motivation nor the overwhelming sense of righteous indignation to pushback against hate-speech full-tilt.

People need to understand that the neo-Nazi playbook is to rely on you giving them a platform (and I'm going to emphasize that allowing them on stage is directly giving them a platform) to spread this shit.

Let me ask you this:do you think creationism should be taught in biology? Just to teach the controversy?

Of course not. It has no place there. But saying this is restricting what teachers can say in certain contexts. We all do this, and more people should do this with Nazis. My relatives didn't die fighting Nazis for chumps to give them a stage and a microphone.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

Give them a platform, and eventually they'll assume their ideas are acceptable. Case-in-point:

David Duke
‏@DrDavidDuke

David Duke Retweeted DaveAnthony

Loser? It appears Dave, that everything I've been talking about for decades is coming true and the ideas I've fought for have won. #winning

 

[Chumley]

Yes the world would probably be a better place if Milo was barred from ever speaking again, but were not dealing with individuals or events here, were discussing principles. By normalising the repression of free speech of supposedly damaging individuals, your allowing that same justification to be used whenever a group perceives an opinion or speaker is too harmful for public discourse. MLK might have never given his speeches in a world with absolute inalienable protections of free speech, the harm goes both ways.

On a separate topic, Trump berating Turnbull seems to have gone down well with conservatives here who admire him for allegedly standing up for "his country first". Its looking more and more likely then that far-right populism will become the mainstream conservative doctrine in most Western countries which of course is a very scary thing.

"Supposedly damaging"

Let me tell you about something called World War 2 and a man named Adolf Hitler.

Modeling your speech and philosophy off what that man represented is demonstrably damaging, because it already happened and 60 million people lost their lives because of it. If you know and understand history you know these people have no place in a post-WW2 society.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

At what point is freedom of speech hate speech? If this were Bannon, Spencer or David Duke espousing White Nationalist pride with dog-whistles calling for violence, what then? At some point, somebody's freedom of speech has to be curtailed, otherwise you're just going to let the next Hitler come to power...

Oh, wait, it's too late for that.

Well, one thing I want to point out first is that the 1st amendment gives only a few areas that lawmakers can regulate in terms of the content/viewpoint of speech. Depending on how you define hate speech, it may or may not fall into those areas that lawmakers can write laws prohibiting.

The areas of content that may be regulated are obscenity, subversive speech, fighting words, and defamation. The area we're talking about is subversive speech.

Subversive speech is basically speech that aims or intends to incite imminent lawless action and it is likely to incite that action. Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) is the source for this standard I am giving you. Unless Milo is inciting imminent unlawful action, his speech falls within 1a protection. And I want to stress something here.

There is also an issue of prior restraints. And I'll only touch on this in general, the idea is that it's incredibly high standard to meet when you want to suppress someone before they speak compared to after speaking.

 

[hipsterpants]

I keep finding myself dwelling on that line from the old Deus Ex HR trailer...

"It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."

I've been playing HR lately and it's hilarious/depressing how realistic its future sounds. Fractured U.S., destroyed environment, China's the #1 superpower, poverty everywhere, and corporations have unprecedented power and are arguably more powerful than nations themselves.

We just need major advancements in human augmentation and we'll have entered the Deus Ex timeline.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Rachel Maddow talking about the dems maybe being risky for once and taking a hard stance on stuff. I mean what did the other way get us? Fucking burn it downs and go down fighting.

 

[Pixieking]

Subversive speech is basically speech that aims or intends to incite imminent lawless action and it is likely to incite that action. Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) is the source for this standard I am giving you. Unless Milo is inciting imminent unlawful action, his speech falls within 1a protection. And I want to stress something here.

There is also an issue of prior restraints. And I'll only touch on this in general, the idea is that it's incredibly high standard to meet when you want to suppress someone before they speak compared to after speaking.

Edit: Ignore this point.

To the second-paragraph: This is Milo. We know what he's going to say, because he's said it a thousand times before - his platform is hate and resentment.

Certainly, legally it's debatable. But I think we would all benefit from Milo (and Trump/Bannon/Miller) going through the legal system to determine whether Nazi and hate rhetoric can be defended under Freedom of Speech.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Random aside: is this day 13 without any public appearance by Melania.

 

[Sibylus]

Can't tolerate intolerance above a threshold, because at that point you're just signing the death warrant of democracy... and that of millions of people on whom it depends.

Are these protests going to become a movement in US politics like the Tea Party did? If so can we get a cool name?

Make one. The resistance is, if anything, an umbrella drawing numerous folks from any given number of groups.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

The bolded: Dog whistles and incitement of hatred towards minorities and women?

To the second-paragraph: This is Milo. We know what he's going to say, because he's said it a thousand times before - his platform is hate and resentment.

Certainly, legally it's debatable. But I think we would all benefit from Milo (and Trump/Bannon/Miller) going through the legal system to determine whether Nazi rhetoric can be defended under Freedom of Speech.

Apparently I accidentally deleted something in my original post.

After I wrote "I want to stress something here," I meant to stress that the word imminent is a very important word to pay attention to. It cannot just be an incitement to unlawful action, it has to create an imminent threat which essentially means immediate, impending, or close at hand.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

From the Daily Mail, so take with grain of salt. Gorsuch was President of a club called "Fascism Forever" in high school.

Hopefully can get a non-Daily Mail source soon.

 

[Kai Dracon]

When Milo used his platform to come to a school and out a student and turn them into a target, that alone should have done it. He has proven he cannot be trusted and is likely to use his appearances as ploys to directly harass members of the student body.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

From the Daily Mail, so take with grain of salt. Gorsuch was President of a club called "Fascism Forever" in high school.

Hopefully can get a non-Daily Mail source soon.

photo is on twitter

 

[Pixieking]

Apparently I accidentally deleted something in my original post.

After I wrote "I want to stress something here," I meant to stress that the word imminent is a very important word to pay attention to. It cannot just be an incitement to unlawful action, it has to create an imminent threat which essentially means immediate, impending, or close at hand.

Oh, actually, I might've actually skipped over that. Yeah, okay, that makes sense for Milo. Editing my post to reflect that.

(As I say, not had enough coffee. )

 

[Teggy]

From the Daily Mail, so take with grain of salt. Gorsuch was President of a club called "Fascism Forever" in high school.

Hopefully can get a non-Daily Mail source soon.

There's a photo of this, it appears to be a "joke" he put next to a yearbook picture.

Also...

Karen DaltonBeninato‏ @kbeninato

"It was at the end of a long day & he was tired & fatigue was setting in."
CNN on White House's response to Trump's hanging up on Aussie PM.
10:27 PM · Feb 1, 2017

Fuck. This. Guy.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

So Trump managed 24 hours before shit re-hit the fan.

 

[gutter_trash]

Random aside: is this day 13 without any public appearance by Melania.

don't want journalists asking her questions about what she thinks about workpermit Visas to immigrants LOL

 

[Chumley]

There's a photo of this, it appears to be a "joke" he put next to a yearbook picture.

Even if that was somehow his real intention, which I doubt, someone with a sense of humor that fucking warped should be blocked forever from SCOTUS.

 

[Got the Shakes]

This map is something...

It's a visual representation of countries that Trump has managed to piss off since he took office.

Original tweet for sourcing: https://twitter.com/BCAppelbaum/status/826986298191802369

 

[Pixieking]

There's a photo of this, it appears to be a "joke" he put next to a yearbook picture.

Also...

Fuck. This. Guy.

It reminds me of something... Humans are at their most vulnerable when they're babies or when they're old - unable to control facilities, cranky when tired, unable to intelligently converse.

 

[thepotatoman]

That pic is misleading. The 1st amendment applies not only to the government, but also to state actors, such as public schools/institutions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_actor

Secondly, while it does deal with arrests, it deals with much more than simply arrests. It has farther reaching implications. It's a restriction against censorship as well. What happened here is what is known as a heckler's veto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler's_veto

I think parts of that pic are spot on. It doesn't shield you from criticism (or the consequences of what you say). It doesn't even shield you from what is known as time, place, and manner restrictions. But it is misleading.

edit:
Not to mention there is an idea of freedom of speech as an ideal that exists outright of personal rights, like a unrestricted flow of ideas being better for everyone as wrong ideas are eventually beaten out by the right ones.

State actors certainly cannot prohibit free speech, but that still doesn't necessarily force state actors to give platforms to certain types of speech.

For instance I believe they should never deny or punish a student for partaking in free speech themselves, including things like dress code and assignment grading where things are a little harder to draw the line on while being more important free speech issues than they're given credit for. But they certainly shouldn't be forced to allow someone with unorthodox and hateful views to give them a microphone to speak on stage.

Should state actors be forced to provide a 9/11 truther course for the free speech of the 9/11 truther movement?

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Oh, actually, I might've actually skipped over that. Yeah, okay, that makes sense for Milo. Editing my post to reflect that.

(As I say, not had enough coffee. )

Also, I reccommend you read the Brandenburg v. ohio case I cited. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/395/444 is the text of the decision.

Here is the wikipedia page on it, probably easier to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

This case involved a KKK leader advocating for violence.

State actors certainly cannot prohibit free speech, but that still doesn't necessarily force state actors to give platforms to certain types of speech.

For instance I believe they should never deny or punish a student for partaking in free speech themselves, but they shouldn't be forced to allow someone with unorthodox and hateful views to give them a microphone to speak on stage.

I think, for better for worse, that the first amendment is meant to not permit state actors from censoring based on content, with exception to a few areas that have been carved out as I have posted later in the thread.

edit:
I also actually do think that the principles behind the first amendment not only support this conclusion but are for the betterment of people living in a free society.

I am, however, open to hearing other people's view points on the subject.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Two questions:

1) What counts as a millennial? When do you have to be born? Because I pray to god I'm not one.

2) If millennials can't be arsed to vote against an environment destroying party and a sexual assaulting dick, I'm tempted to say they just aren't worth it. Selfish pricks.

(only half-joking here, but I've not had my usual amount of coffee, so... )

1) I think the range is being born from like '82-'95ish.

2) So this is an interesting question but it's important to realize that physical utility of voting is an entirely irrational behavior. Especially on the scale of this current electorate, the benefit of voting is entirely outweighed by the opportunity cost of registering, obtaining a ballot, and taking the time to vote. If the actual usefulness of an individual vote mattered, people wouldn't do it.

The key then is to add to the good experience of voting. We talk about civic duty and the importance of democracy because we want people to feel good about participating in the system even if their individual vote is meaningless. We hand out stickers and make a big show of it all. Making the experience of voting valuable is key to making sure turnout doesn't completely collapse.

But for young people, who are often poor, busy, and frustrated with the political system, that probably won't be enough. They don't have time to take off work to vote for the lesser of two evils in a meaningless display of support. If they love the candidate though, the good feeling of voting *for* someone is critical to guaranteeing they vote. Black turnout surging with Obama obviously wasn't a coincidence, right?

Liberalizing voting laws and having more representative democracy also helps, of course.

 

[Teggy]

A couple of people posted about getting maced at the Berkeley thing. One girl was giving an interview wearing a maga hat and they got her right when the interview finished (think they stole her hat too but she had a backup trump beanie lol). Dug into some of these people's feeds. This particular girl is a lesbian hardcore libertarian. Her friend is also a libertarian who did humanitarian work in Afghanistan. But both of them could set aside all the junk that came along with Trump because...what? People are weird.

 

[sphagnum]

The Electronic Intifada is an extreeeeeemely bad site that peddles in anti-Israel stories from conspiracy theorists that think the Jews did 9/11.

I would wait until at least Mother Jones or The Intercept reviewed this information.

Hmm didn't know that. Doesn't seem like there's anything in the story that wouldn't be wrong though.

 

[Chumley]

A couple of people posted about getting maced at the Berkeley thing. One girl was giving an interview wearing a maga hat and they got her right when the interview finished (think they stole her hat too but she had a backup trump beanie lol). Dug into some of these people's feeds. This particular girl is a lesbian hardcore libertarian. Her friend is also a libertarian who did humanitarian work in Afghanistan. But both of them could set aside all the junk that came along with Trump because...what? People are weird.

Some people like pissing others off so much that they'd go against their own interests in every way imaginable to do it. Fulfilling childhood fantasies of bullying others when they never got to as a kid is the new thing.

 

[B-Dubs]

Hmm didn't know that. Doesn't seem like there's anything in the story that wouldn't be wrong though.

The context the facts are put in can be just as important, if not more so, than the actual facts. Like how you can misrepresent polling data to make it look like people want the ACA repealed when in reality it's only a minority opinion and most either want it to stay as is or expanded.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Should state actors be forced to provide a 9/11 truther course for the free speech of the 9/11 truther movement?

I am not entirely following your question. I don't think anyone is forcing state actors to provide a class based on Milo's speech. The college here is just a forum, a place for him to make his speech. It's not like he is teaching a class. He is using a building in the college to do a one and done kind of thing. No one was being forced to attend either.

 

[UberTag]

photo is on twitter

This would be said photo. Funny guy. He should look into comedy with jokes like this one.
It's right up there with PewDiePie's "Death to All Jews" joke for his young viewing audience.

 

[royalan]

Yes the world would probably be a better place if Milo was barred from ever speaking again, but were not dealing with individuals or events here, were discussing principles. By normalising the repression of free speech of supposedly damaging individuals, your allowing that same justification to be used whenever a group perceives an opinion or speaker to be to harmful to be allowed to participate in public discourse. MLK might have never given his speeches in a world without absolute inalienable protections of free speech, the harm goes both ways.

Also Milo already has a platform, the internet, his supporters will hear him whether people stop them or not

Nobody is curtailing Milo's free speech. He is not being repressed. We standing firm and insisting that hateful filth that he and his ilk believe in have absolutely no place in civilized society, and shaming institutions who think otherwise.

He can go preach his hate somewhere else. A landfill perhaps. But if American society wants to at some point stand up for its purported values and principles, then we need to stop thinking that includes allowing hatemongers a seat at the table.