ArkhamFantasy
Member
Bernie is my favorite politician but what he said pisses me off, it was fucking stupid.
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Which actions?
Big Baybee
Member
Yea, never mind.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No, being quite serious. A lot has happened since the election. I could give you a breakdown of the debate with Cruz, or we could talk about the DNC chair (again), or we have the email list topic, and so on. It would be a very long post if I discussed everything. Give me a specific topic and I'd be very happy to give my thoughts.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Purity tests are when they don't want to work with you. Perfectly reasonable response is when you don't want to work with them.
metalslimer
Member
So anything critical of Sanders is now a purity test.
What?
Anyway, it's pretty clear what Bernie is doing. He's attempting to pull a power play the same way Obama pulled a power play to get Tom Perez in. The difference is that Bernie is holding hostage something that could actually be useful election wise.
What?
Anyway, it's pretty clear what Bernie is doing. He's attempting to pull a power play the same way Obama pulled a power play to get Tom Perez in. The difference is that Bernie is holding hostage something that could actually be useful election wise.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Do you not feel the tiniest soupçon of irony?
metalslimer
Member
No, I don't. Because there is a difference between being critical and deciding to dump someone because they don't align with you 100%. And yes I saw the earlier comment, but that's not what most here are doing.
Of course this was a power play. That was the whole point of his Ellison endorsement. He may have just been a Dem in the primary, but he's an independent right now. Had it not been a power play he could have stayed quiet and if asked said, "As of this moment I am not a party of the Democratic Party, I was elected as an Independent and will stay that way until my reelection campaign, and as such I don't want to interfere with an internal party decision. I look forward to joining in such deliberations when I join the party." That would have been the end of it.
Of course he's trying to wrangle influence and it's why Obama got involved. Regardless of what anyone says, it's still Obama's party and his intersectional coalition remains the key moving forward. He's not going to let anything jeopardize a future win and forward movement.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Right, and the overwhelming amount of material coming from the average progressive is simply critical. More Sanders supporters backed Clinton than Clinton supporters backed Obama. So why does this thread persist with the asinine material about BernieBros (especially when statistically speaking the average Sanders supporter was a young woman)?
The hostility and unwillingness to compromise is pretty one-sided tbh.
This man literally called for a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary and the Clinton Foundation just months ago.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Perhaps. Maybe I should have worded it differently. He's a smart guy. He HAS to know what he is saying can be damaging to the party.
You're right--thought it was Bernie's direct comments. Even so, his supporters aren't helping anything.
metalslimer
Member
I would say it's probably because we lost hard, and there is the feeling that the people still fighting against democrats and not against Trump are in the wrong. I will say that perhaps people still do focus too much on the supposed BernieBro when they are a small percentage of people. You are right there. I have seen little evidence of people unwilling to compromise with Bernie supporters though.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
All of these democrat wins in special elections are making me wonder--since most of these wins are much better than win Clinton was on the ticket:
A) Was Clinton a major drag on the ticket herself?
Or
B) Was Trump on the ticket just a major boon for the racist non-voters finally coming to the ballot box?
58-41.
I hope we don't let one data point make people think a trend is happening. Too early to tell. Georgia-6 is what I'm watching.
VendettaRed07
Member
The answer is both A and B
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Bernie understands that our system can't support more than two parties. Instead of trying to start a third party that replaces the Democrats (though there is the Vermont Progressive Party) he's trying to insert himself into the Democratic Party and have his people take it over to reshape it into a social democratic party. This is why he's having his people run for low level DNC stuff and why he pushed Ellison.
This is what the Watergate Babies did when they pushed out the New Deal-ers in the 70's and 80's. I bet if we had internet forums in 1976 or whatever we could read posts about how these damn McGovernites need to get out of our party and stop making power plays.
This is what the Watergate Babies did when they pushed out the New Deal-ers in the 70's and 80's. I bet if we had internet forums in 1976 or whatever we could read posts about how these damn McGovernites need to get out of our party and stop making power plays.
Yes.
I think it's a bad idea though. Nobody wants to become Labour in here.
https://ballotpedia.org/Georgia's_6th_Congressional_District_special_election,_2017
Wow "Ragin Edwards" what a name
Didn't McGovernites lead us into the woods for like 20 years until we got Bill Clinton, who, as I've read on the internet, is the most racist, right-wing president since Saddam Hussein?
metalslimer
Member
Wouldn't they have been right?
VendettaRed07
Member
And that strategy worked in the 90s because hyper partisanship had not taken over. An election could actually be won in an open forum debate setting driven by reasonable policy. Tried that this election and people went lol trump.
You can't make a play to the center anymore like you used to. Or it's stupid to try.
Trump won by not by trying to appeal to people who voted for Obama over Romney, but driving up people who didn't turn out before.
It's better to aim for people who didn't vote and hope you pick up some flippers in the process. Hillary trying to appeal to white suburban moms blew up in her face even against the big bad pussy grabber
CrimzonSamurai
Member
I really don't think that there are enough non-voting uber-progressives in America to counter-balance the number of non-voting uber racists.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
GA-6 is right next door to me so I'm watching pretty closely. If the Dems can focus on Roswell/Alpharetta I think they can pull a win
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Well I mean maybe but since then they've controlled the party at all levels?
They lost their jobs to them so I guess so?
Is this basically saying that yes, the Sanders wing is totally okay with a new Republican golden age as long as they're the ones always losing presidential elections instead of "the establishment"?
It's pretty incredible that some of you then turn around and act indignant when bernie's wing responds poorly to this.
Dems had a chance to extend an olive branch to a young, energized liberal constituency and fucked it up. Again.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Joe Biden would have won and he's Mr. Moderate. You gotta stop playing this ideologue card, people vote for people they like. Clinton was seen as corrupt and lame, she also had unique external factors bringing her down that no one else does.
and he would have lost to Hillary in the primary so.......it does not matter
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
How are you so sure? Are you relying on Russia I mean Debbie to rig the election?
We've extended olive branches. The segment of the Bernie wing up in arms about this don't want a branch, they want the whole damn tree.
If extending an olive brand to that wing means ceding power to a man who won't even claim Democrat, well then I think you saw last night how the party as a whole feels about that.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I thought Osoff was doing well and leading polls. Kind of bummed to see the race is considered "safe republican."
soul creator
Member
Ahh, thanks. On a somewhat similar note, I have read Revolutionaries to Race Leaders, which talks about the transition of black politics from pre-Civil Rights to the current Democratic mainstream.
I think part of why the "yeah, but how can we talk about class issues without alienating the base which are minorities??" confusion is so weird to me is because the entire history of black radical politics for example (and the fact that black folks have almost always been way more economically left and antiwar than other groups anyway) has always done this from the beginning. And it wouldn't surprise me if this applies to other minority groups as well.
All the civil rights heroes we claim to idolize had no problem doing this, but suddenly in 2017 it's some permanently impossible task?
CrimzonSamurai said:
I've posted this link a million times, but the non-voting population is poorer, more racially diverse, and younger than the voting population. Which is generally a demographic that supports positions that are considered "left".
Though as mentioned before, "left" is a constantly shifting thing, and not some permanently static state of affairs, and people don't map their own views perfectly along those lines or necessarily self-ID in 100% politically accurate ways. Some people think the ACA is some massive socialist takeover, not because it actually is, but because the overton window has shifted so much (intentionally, by certain interests).
Where I guess I differ from most people is that the shift needs to be countered and pulled back, and not just blindly catered to. So rather than cater to a "center" that is constantly moving to the right, I'd rather just try to take something left and sell that as the real center.
Which is why when I use medicare-for-all as an example, I don't think the message should be "it's this far left proposal and it's so awesome!", but rather "this is something you already like and your grandma supports, isn't it pragmatic to build on that, also it'd be way cheaper for you"
balladofwindfishes
Member
We, right now, have pretty much the most liberal leader of the DNC the party has ever had in its entire history.
When Bernie lost, Hillary made major, unprecedented changes to her platform to better match Bernie's. The primary loser doesn't get to make such major adjustments to the platform and yet...
In what ways have the Democrats done that isn't attempting to appeal to "liberals?"
While it is impossible to separate the primary from the DNC chair race, I think you guys need to focus less on Sanders.
Consider that Ellison had the early endorsements, he had both Sanders and Schumer behind him, and he was in the race almost immediately, compared to many including Perez's late join. It is easy to blame bad feelings, but it is quite evident that Ellison blew his lead. And undoubtedly at the very last moment his team made a huge mistake with the Pete Buttigieg (sp???) thing.
The chair race is over, there's special elections and other things to consider, like 2018.
Consider that Ellison had the early endorsements, he had both Sanders and Schumer behind him, and he was in the race almost immediately, compared to many including Perez's late join. It is easy to blame bad feelings, but it is quite evident that Ellison blew his lead. And undoubtedly at the very last moment his team made a huge mistake with the Pete Buttigieg (sp???) thing.
The chair race is over, there's special elections and other things to consider, like 2018.
excelsiorlef
Member
They don't want free rides they want the to be given the car... I mean that's what it amounts to in the end. That was the narrative post election everyone needs to get out of the way this is Sanders' Party now.
VendettaRed07
Member
Here's the reality. People are desperate because life on average in the US is bleak. People can't afford homes, young people can't afford children, healthcare plans, have a decent retirement plan, are stuck with jobs that are completely demoralizing and tedious like the retail industry and Walmart. People are swimming in student debt and struggling to pay it off. Racial tensions, police brutality and our criminal justice system seemingly continue to get more fucked up by the year.
As far as I can tell, the far left is at least proposing ideas that, while difficult, plan to address these problems. They are at this point, proposing legislation that your average American, if implemented, would actually feel the effects of. That's what democrats need to start doing.
Unless people have better ideas of where to go from here I really don't know what to say. Because while some ideas out of the far left are to out there I'd say most people on here even the detractors agree with the vast majority of it. I also don't want to hear "lol socialists will destroy the party can't have them". Because as far as I can tell the party has been destroyed and that happened because we weren't promising the type of transformational change people desperately are looking for. We just elected a reality show fascist whose literally actually in the pocket of Russia, so I don't buy the whole "can't run with far left ideas because red scare murica"
Despite the fact that the GOP has the most power they have ever had, they are struggling to move forward with an agenda, because people are active. They are flooding their reps email boxes and their phones are ringing off the hook. There are constant massive, insane sized protests and marches. Republicans are getting roasted at town halls and they are practically afraid to go outside at this point.
We can channel this energy and use this anger in a positive manner to get stuff done. Bernie was wrong about a lot of things and that's why I didn't vote for him. But he was right about saying the party needs to do what it can and focus on mobilizing voters like we are currently seeing happen.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Re: Bernie
Frankly I've been disappointed in his actions post elections. He started promising being the first voice to outline the immediate response that the rest of the Dems got behind but still putting mixed messages on minorities. I really liked his early line of "working class is hurting but we can't blame minorities." Then he started to riff on identity politics seemingly ignorant of the dog whistles with it. Now with the confirmation hearings and immediate energy of the resistance movement he says things like "delighted" to work with Trump.
Franken, Warren, Pelosi and even Schumer have shown better leadership being on the front against Trump. Honestly I don't think he is fit for being in the leadership role but his voice in still extremely important to boost issues. Dems can't write off anyone from the base or the activist wing so I hope we can get bread breaking and actual unity with Perez and Ellison.
Frankly I've been disappointed in his actions post elections. He started promising being the first voice to outline the immediate response that the rest of the Dems got behind but still putting mixed messages on minorities. I really liked his early line of "working class is hurting but we can't blame minorities." Then he started to riff on identity politics seemingly ignorant of the dog whistles with it. Now with the confirmation hearings and immediate energy of the resistance movement he says things like "delighted" to work with Trump.
Franken, Warren, Pelosi and even Schumer have shown better leadership being on the front against Trump. Honestly I don't think he is fit for being in the leadership role but his voice in still extremely important to boost issues. Dems can't write off anyone from the base or the activist wing so I hope we can get bread breaking and actual unity with Perez and Ellison.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
It's fake but illegal leaks.
It's masking the defeat... while your in the white house?
How does that work?
Cesare Borgia
Banned
Biden has never done well in a primary in large part due to his flaws. He's an incredibly undisciplined politician. He'd also be facing an entire establishment infrastructure ready to attack him from every angle. Liberal sites would be ready to hit him with various nasty stories, handed to them by Clinton's camp; a Vox piece on how he violates women's space for instance, which would quickly be boosted up Twitter/trending.
He wasn't going to win. Would he have come in second? Perhaps. Nobody wanted him to run and potentially hurt the party or embarrass himself.
I agree Biden would beat Trump but it's a moot point. Nobody was going to beat Clinton, in large part because nobody could match her in the south.
Ellison as chair would be the whole damn tree...? You're being ridiculous. Pelosi leading house, Schumer in senate, now Perez as chair. So much for olive branches. You're demanding people be satisfied with crumbs, then belittling them when they complain about it.
And I'm not sure you really understand how dismissive and petty you seem when you continually obsess over the party label like that. There's a large group of people dissatisfied with how the dem party has been behaving and it just comes off as petty when you dismiss input when it comes from outside the party -- they're trying to make the party better and you, along with too many other dems, are responding as if they're trying to sabotage the party. It plays right into the idea that dems care more about control and power than they care about actually fighting for progressive causes.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
It's going to be interesting to see what ISIS strategy Trump pursues.
He said he would reveal his secret plan within 30 days but has instead spent so much of his first 30 days on vacation. Sad.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Some of y'all mad about Sanders supporters being mad at the party need to ask how you'd feel if Sanders got the nomination, won PA/MI/WI but lost NV/VA, and the senate races adjusted accordingly. You guys would be furious with him and his supporters for unleashing Trump on us, right?
While I don't think they're uninterested in stopping Trump and will (as they did last year) vote for the Democratic nominee, I think they also probably feel that the other side of the party is incapable of mounting a serious opposition to Trump.
Good post.
It would be funny how fucking preoccupied he was with things like this. If he wasn't supposed to be doing a kind of important job.what is this about
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