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PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love

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In other news, the French presidential election is getting interesting.

http://www.odoxa.fr/sondage/preside...on-reprend-lavantage-fillon-redevient-favori/

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Fillon is collapsing, Macron is surging. Le Pen stable.

intereting that Bayrou is sitting it out, probably not wanting to take away centrist votes from Macron
 
I don't think that's a fair characterization of Crab's posts. I don't always agree with him, but I don't stand with the interpretation of his comments about the white working class being an outright dismissal of the concerns of minorities. It's understandably a heated issue, but personal attacks on him aren't really warranted, you can disagree without that.

He has quite literally told me that he'd rather be black than poor. I'd love for him to tell a black person this to their face in this country.

Someone said once (maybe on here) that the Republicans are sort of like America's default party, and I somewhat agree. When times are bad, we elect a Democrat to clean up the mess. When times are good (as a direct result of that Democrat's policies, usually) we elect a Republican for those sweet tax cuts.

Of course, this dynamic only exists because of the Electoral College - Gore and Clinton would have been president in a popular vote and the nature of their campaigns probably would have made it even easier as they would have focused more on goosing up big city turnout (and very arguably this is what Clinton did including in some red states such as AZ and TX, but those weren't the rules).

I tend to say something similar; that there's a large chunk of the US electorate that views the Democratic party as illegitimate due to their stances on things like guns, abortion, etc... Not just wrong on these issues, but straight up illegitimate. I know people who would rather die (literally) than vote Democrat (they talk about it in the same way they idolize those kids in school shootings who refuse to deny their religion and get killed as martyrs. They literally think that admitting at the pearly gates that you ever voted Dem will get you sent to Hell for our "immorality.")
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
After Clinton's popular vote win I now know we handily outnumber those people. The problem is we're all holed up in major cities and our stupid electoral system punishes that
 

royalan

Member
I mean, the whole ENTIRE post is fire, but this point especially:

But I don't vote like the "Democrats of the Rust Belt" do, now do I? The downtrodden minorities of the US who are also struggling to make ends meet don't vote like the "Democrats of the Rust Belt" do, now do they?

Gets made hundreds of times, and glossed over every time.

When the economy is bad minorities tend to get hit harder. But we vote differently. Wonder why that is...
 
What?

A racist candidate wasn't run in 2008 or 2012.

Now, I'm black and thus not gullible enough to believe that the Republican party was ever not racist. But you're being intentionally dishonest if you frame McCain and Romney as running campaigns that were even remotely, remotely, on the level of the Trump campaign in regards to race.

Like, your entire point falls apart if it's based on that.
Romney and McCain weren't the only candidates!

Why didn't Gingrich or Giuliani or some other ghoul win the primary? Why didn't Buchanan win in '92? Why did the midwest vote for Dukakis over Bush's "I will execute black people and the other guy will let them out of prison to rape and kill your wives" in 88? Why was Perry's ranch's disgusting name something that sunk him, rather than making him win the nomination?
 
What?

A racist candidate wasn't run in 2008 or 2012.

Now, I'm black and thus not gullible enough to believe that the Republican party was ever not racist. But you're being intentionally dishonest if you frame McCain and Romney as running campaigns that were even remotely, remotely, on the level of the Trump campaign in regards to race.

Like, your entire point falls apart if it's based on that.
Not to mention asking why Democrats won immediately after George W. Bush and all his presidency entailed reveals a startling lack of insight into the American political climate of 2008.
 

kirblar

Member
Found the map: https://twitter.com/hodgesmr/status/835562825066119168

Places that had strong recoveries in the wake of the recession still went for Trump.
Okay, sure, fine. You can frame it that way if it makes you happy.

However, we're agreed on the key point: their extent to which their racism manifests itself politically, the extent to which they're willing to vote on it, is dependent on factors like their current economic situation.

If you can't explain to them why you can make their economic situation better, you run the risk of a fascist explaining he can make it better by hurting The Other - in this case, black minorities. And it's not good enough to say "fuck it, we can't improve their situation, let's ignore them", because all the while you're saying that, black Americans are becoming poorer, being shot in the streets, being excluded from the basic services of the state that all persons should be entitled to; because you're too ignorant and stubborn and entitled to win back office.
We can explain to them how we can make their economic situation better.

But they pick their preferred answer of "Blame *insert scapegoat here*" every time.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I mean, the whole ENTIRE post is fire, but this point especially:



Gets made hundreds of times, and glossed over every time.

When the economy is bad minorities tend to get hit harder. But we vote differently. Wonder why that is...

Because if you tried running a black fascist and running a campaign on actively discriminating against white people, you'd be woefully outnumbered and it would end horribly. So black fascism doesn't get off the ground.

Like, this seems sort of obvious.
 
Romney and McCain weren't the only candidates!

Why didn't Gingrich or Giuliani or some other ghoul win the primary? Why didn't Buchanan win in '92? Why did the midwest vote for Dukakis over Bush's "I will execute black people and the other guy will let them out of prison to rape and kill your wives" in 88? Why was Perry's ranch's disgusting name something that sunk him, rather than making him win the nomination?

That was before unions were crushed in those states. Perhaps lower income whites are more susceptible to racial fervor without institutions pushing them elsewhere.

Though Trump winning the primary was obviously a result of the dysfunction of the Republican party.
 

royalan

Member
Romney and McCain weren't the only candidates!

Why didn't Gingrich or Giuliani or some other ghoul win the primary? Why didn't Buchanan win in '92? Why did the midwest vote for Dukakis over Bush's "I will execute black people and the other guy will let them out of prison to rape and kill your wives" in 88? Why was Perry's ranch's disgusting name something that sunk him, rather than making him win the nomination?

We're not talking the primary electorate. We're talking the general electorate, and why a Republican won voters carried by the previous Democrat.

So yes, McCain and Romney are the only candidates.
 
That was before unions were crushed in those states. Lower income whites are more susceptible to racial fervor without institutions pushing them elsewhere.
So you might say that...the destruction of their communities through neoliberal economics has made them more susceptible to people stoking racial anxiety?

We're not talking the primary electorate. We're talking the general electorate, and why a Republican won voters carried by the previous Democrat.

So yes, McCain and Romney are the only candidates.
The point is that if the only necessary ingredient to winning is as a ghoulish racist fascist, why didn't any of those other candidates have the same success as Trump?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
What do you actually know about what it is like to be economically precarious?

I was raised by a single mum who struggled to hold down any kind of job after having to leave the country she'd been living in (and that I was born in) because my father bailed on her due to mental issues. I don't bring this up every five seconds because it's just not relevant to whether what I'm saying is true or not; the fact I had a low-income childhood doesn't automatically give me some magical "I win" card in discussions.
 
Like I said if lying to these people that their factory jobs are coming back than so be it because they sure don't seem to want anything construed as a handout

I'll just keep looking at how Feingold got beaten much worse than Hillary did.

Or how no one is voting for something that will raise taxes across the board to pay for social programs
 
So you might say that...the destruction of their communities through neoliberal economics has made them more susceptible to people stoking racial anxiety?
That's a contributor yes.
The point is that if the only necessary ingredient to winning is as a ghoulish racist fascist, why didn't any of those other candidates have the same success as Trump?
None of them campaigned on it as openly as Trump. And Trump had the benefit of facing the weakest Democratic candidate since Dukakis. If even Kerry was the nominee he would have been enough to win the electoral college.
 
The point is that if the only necessary ingredient to winning is as a ghoulish racist fascist, why didn't any of those other candidates have the same success as Trump?

One could pretty easily argue that electability is something primary voters usually care about. I mean, literally every Republican was saying Trump was going to get blown out because they believed that while their own base is incredibly racist, the country couldn't possibly be okay with that.

They were suuuuper wrong about that though.
 

royalan

Member
Because if you tried running a black fascist and running a campaign on actively discriminating against white people, you'd be woefully outnumbered and it would end horribly. So black fascism doesn't get off the ground.

Like, this seems sort of obvious.

This is a cartoon caliber point.

First off, find me a black fascist with enough of a following within the black community to even consider running for office. This ain't apples to apples. These groups do exist, but they're incredibly small because they get laughed off to the fringes and kept there. The don't fucking win primaries.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Like I said if lying to these people that their factory jobs are coming back than so be it because they sure don't seem to want anything construed as a handout

I'll just keep looking at how Feingold got beaten much worse than Hillary did.

Feingold got 1,380,335 votes. Clinton got 1,382,536. I'm rather ensure of why 2,201 votes is "much worse". If anything, it's a demonstration of how closely Senate candidates are tied to the Presidential candidate in the modern era - everybody votes for the candidate at the top of the line. There were only two Democratic senatorial candidates in 2016 who exceeded Clinton's share of the vote by more than one standard deviation, and one was Kander, whose three main ads focused on gun control, planned parenthood support, and campaign finance reform, which all seem plausibly pretty liberal to me.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
First off, find me a black fascist with enough of a following within the black community to even consider running for office. This ain't apples to apples. These groups do exist, but they're incredibly small because they get laughed off to the fringes and kept there. The don't fucking win primaries.

Yes, because it doesn't take a genius to work out what the consequences of a widespread black fascist movement would look like for the ordinary black American, which is why they get laughed off.
 

Holmes

Member
I didn't use liberals with a capital L, now did I? I also don't understand the bizarre need for you (and some in the Sanders crew) to call him an "orange fascist Russian puppet", you end up filling in words that have no use in an argument.

In the order of needs, is economic sensitivity higher priority than sensitivity to life and security (criminal justice reform) and control of one's own physical body and health (abortion)? You have never, ever once even tried to stand in the shoes of a woman or a black person or a Muslim for any argument. What you argue in your post now is no different from the 'entrenched ideologue' accusation you made of kirblar and me, because you are entrenching yourself in your own worldview, your own ideas, without ever considering an alternative perspective.

Moreover, if you understand that Labour is a failure, and Corbyn is a failure, then you know better than to stick your nose into American politics and support what the "Bernie or Bust" segment is doing, and add fuel to the fire of your own.

It's not hard for me to understand the "Democrats of the Rust Belt", because my father died when I was 10 and my mother had no job. We lived on food stamps, we were on Medicaid, I know what it is like to be fucking poor. The Democrats in the Rust Belt? They had more job security than my family (my father was an independent construction worker with no real work licenses, he was an immigrant that came here with one bag of clothes; my mother worked in a (probably illegal) garment factory before she quit to take care of three kids). The "Democrats of the Rust Belt" were born in this country and spoke the language and could get support easily, they had access to higher level jobs and to education; my mother couldn't speak English, had no free time or resources while raising three children, and she didn't know where to get help. And that's how it was like, for years.

But I don't vote like the "Democrats of the Rust Belt" do, now do I? The downtrodden minorities of the US who are also struggling to make ends meet don't vote like the "Democrats of the Rust Belt" do, now do they?

What do you actually know about what it is like to be economically precarious? You don't actually know what it is like to be black and afraid for your life around police, to be a female and be told what to do with your vagina, to be poor and worried about the future constantly until poverty has etched scars into you, making you into a twisted person only capable of seeing other people through the lens of money.

Nobody likes being called a racist or a sexist, but they have to be called out all the same. You are not an exemption, and pointing those problems out is not a sign of a poor argument.
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Like I said if lying to these people that their factory jobs are coming back than so be it because they sure don't seem to want anything construed as a handout

I'll just keep looking at how Feingold got beaten much worse than Hillary did.

Or how no one is voting for something that will raise taxes across the board to pay for social programs

People don't vote split ticket anymore. 2016 is proof of that if it is proof of anything. There wasn't a single senator that won in a state that Hillary lost, a first in history.
 
Feingold got 1,380,335 votes. Clinton got 1,382,536. I'm rather ensure of why 2,201 votes is "much worse". If anything, it's a demonstration of how closely Senate candidates are tied to the Presidential candidate in the modern era - everybody votes for the candidate at the top of the line. There were only two Democratic senatorial candidates in 2016 who exceeded Clinton's share of the vote by more than one standard deviation, and one was Kander, whose three main ads focused on gun control, planned parenthood support, and campaign finance reform, which all seem plausibly pretty liberal to me.

Kander had a pretty mainstream Democratic platform, which is liberal for Missouri (and different than other Democrats in the state). But he was to the right of Hillary for sure. Maybe not by as much as some people would expect in Missouri, but definitely to the right of Hillary.
 

royalan

Member
Yes, because it doesn't take a genius to work out what the consequences of a widespread black fascist movement would look like for the ordinary black American, which is why they get laughed off.

You didn't read my post.

They don't even exist in grand scale within the black community.

And trust me, the reason why they don't isn't because we're afraid of what white people would do to us.
 
Sure, that's why George Wallace ran so strongly in the midwest in the '64 Dem caucuses. Those damn neoliberal policies of the 50s and 60s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_1964
It looks like he didn't win any states and just had a surprise showing in Wisconsin even though he still lost?

Interestingly enough, when he ran for president in the most successful third party bid in the last century, he got 7.56% of the vote in Wisconsin, placing it significantly lower than both his national average and making it his 32nd strongest state overall. In Minnesota, he only got 4% of the vote. In Michigan he got a meatier 10% (still underperforming relative to the nation at large) but Humphrey still won the state with a commanding 7 point victory.

And I never said Wallace wasn't successful or that Americans weren't racist in the 60's. Is Trump much better than Wallace though? Trump won.

Kander had a pretty mainstream Democratic platform, which is liberal for Missouri (and different than other Democrats in the state). But he was to the right of Hillary for sure. Maybe not by as much as some people would expect in Missouri, but definitely to the right of Hillary.
What areas was he to the right of Hillary on?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Kander had a pretty mainstream Democratic platform, which is liberal for Missouri (and different than other Democrats in the state). But he was to the right of Hillary for sure. Maybe not by as much as some people would expect in Missouri, but definitely to the right of Hillary.

Difficult to really say concretely because of how young his political career is, but for example, he opposed TPP relatively early on (I can find statements from May 2015, well before Clinton's conversion), so he is more Sanders-ite than Clinton in at least that respect - which is a very important one.
 
EDIT: I don't want to bury the (old) lede.

"Education, not income, predicted who would vote for Trump".

In a regression analysis at the county level, for instance, lower-income counties were no more likely to shift to Trump once you control for education levels.x

In fact, in some regression specifications — such as if you weight by a county's population — lower incomes were actually associated with a slight shift toward Clinton, when education levels were held constant.

Okay original post continues...

Here's what you're saying.

1) There is a bloc of voters who have been, are, and always will be persuaded by racist arguments.
2) Someone persuaded by racist arguments will always vote for the racist candidate.
3) This bloc of voters is enough to win elections.

If this was true... why didn't a racist candidate win in 2012? Or in 2008?

Plenty of racist/dog-whistling congressional candidates did win in 2008/2010/2012/2014/2016; Nixon's southern strategy hasn't gone anywhere, or do you think Republican's disproportional domination of the south is just coincidental? I'm going to assume what you meant to say was "why didn't a racist presidential candidate win in 2008/2010"?

However what you wrote is not even a counter-example to your own summation of the argument. It completely assumes that a racist presidential candidate will always run and that racism is a binary 'yes or no' question with no levels of gradation.

In truth, 1/2/3 and your counterexample (a racist presidential candidate didn't win the election) can all be true if, for example, a racist presidential candidate didn't run in the first place. Or if you add in additional premises that different tiers of racism have differing levels of impact or something like that.

Your point is merely a question, not a rebuttal. "Why didn't a (more) racist presidential candidate run in 2008/2012"? But that question could be answered without reference to 1/2/3 because actors can be non-rational and have imperfect information.

Your argument cannot explain this. Therefore, it is wrong. Just straight, point blank, wrong. Can't get around that.

The fact that a racist candidate didn't win in 2008 and 2012 means that instead of your 1), which is woefully reductive, we have this:

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Even if what you had a written was a logical counterexample it would not prove your argument; that's denying the antecedent.

If P, then Q.
P is an illogical argument, therefore Q is untrue.

If P, then Q.
Not P, therefore not Q.

Both those examples are invalid forms of arguments.

1a) There is a bloc of voters who are sometimes persuaded by racist arguments and sometimes not.

Now, we can explain why a racist candidate didn't win in 2008 and 2012, but did in 2016. 2008 and 2012 were the 'sometimes nots', 2016 was the 'sometimes'.

I'm not trying to argue that 1/2/3 is true; life is never as simple as a formal logical argument, I think we all agree on that. But it is beyond vapid to say in a formal logic context that sometimes a thing happens and sometimes it doesn't. Obviously when people say that something was the main cause they mean it in a more holistic sense as opposed to "whenever P, always Q."

So now we have to figure out what causes an election to be a 'sometimes' and what causes it to be a 'sometimes not'. That is, what makes voters more or less likely to be motivated by racism than the norm.

No disagreements here but this is what people are already doing in the first place. They've merely concluded that this election was due more to racism than other factors. It's perfectly fine to disagree of course, such is the nature of inquiry.

Here's a good one: people who feel like their lives are worse off and their situation is less secure are more easily convinced to lash out at the Other than they are when their lives are improving and their situation is more secure.

Do we have any evidence of this? Why, yes!

The swing voter - the critical voter bloc - that swung the 2016 election was the white working class (earning less than $30,000).

Lot to unpack in so few sentences. Okay, so there's nothing wrong with your initial argument/claim per se but you're papering over a lot of issues by using general language like "secure" and "feel". Those are very subjective factors which you immediately try to correlate with a very objective factor, "white working class voters earning less than $30,000". That's a pretty big jump to say the least.

Now, I don't disagree with the claim that people who make less than $30,000 a year tend to have less secure financial situations than people who make more than $60,000 (that's self-evident), but I do disagree with the idea that a less secure financial situation automatically equates to higher susceptibility to racism, I'm gonna want those receipts. The fact that Trump earned a high share of white working class votes making less than $30,000 a year says nothing about their relative levels of racial thinking/bias compared to other demographic groups, we could (and I would argue we do) have other confounding variables.

Okay, Yes, Trump's average voter was wealthier than Clinton's, but the average voter isn't the important one. Trump's average voter has been Republican for decades, the fact they were Republican again in 2016 doesn't change anything. The marginal voter is what's important, because their decision to switch parties (or not to vote) is what causes elected offices to change hands. And the marginal voter was more susceptible to racist arguments in 2016 than in 2012 or 2008 because their personal lives were and had been stagnant for a very long time.

Okay, I'm just going to ignore the fact that you completely discount that statistic about average wealth of voters (though it seems quite damning in my opinion) and focus on your piece on the marginal voter.

Most glaringly, you don't actually provide any statistics about the marginal/independent voter's income relative to Republican or Democratic voters. That seems very odd, after all, that's the entire thrust of your argument, less money = more response to racism = more votes for trump. So what was the average income of the marginal voter? I suspect the reason you don't bring it up is because "Education, not income, predicted who would vote for Trump".

In a regression analysis at the county level, for instance, lower-income counties were no more likely to shift to Trump once you control for education levels.x

In fact, in some regression specifications — such as if you weight by a county's population — lower incomes were actually associated with a slight shift toward Clinton, when education levels were held constant.

You finish by stating:

So what's the conclusion? Trump's campaign was racist, but that wasn't the reason he won, in and of itself, because many racist candidates have run before without winning. He won because he persuaded people who were previously not racist (at least, actively so) to become racist, which previous racist candidates had not managed to do. Trump could do so because the underlying conditions were there for it to happen.

I can't even parse the hoops you're jumping through to avoid the conclusion that racism mattered. He didn't win off racism he just won because he convinced more half-racists to vote for him. yeah, huh uh, cool, that sounds like a meaningful distinction.
 
The point is that if the only necessary ingredient to winning is as a ghoulish racist fascist, why didn't any of those other candidates have the same success as Trump?
Trump wasn't tremendously successful in the primaries. He was successful enough to win, sure, and a wins a win.

But he was not pulling majorities even late in the process. His navigation through the primary as the overtly racist candidate and platform isn't particularly relevant.

The actual general candidates in previous recent cycles did not run on overt, vocal, diametrically opposed platforms with regard to racism, minorities, racial issues.

Also it's not the only ingredient necessary.
 
Difficult to really say concretely because of how young his political career is, but for example, he opposed TPP relatively early on (I can find statements from May 2015, well before Clinton's conversion), so he is more Sanders-ite than Clinton in at least that respect - which is a very important one.

Maybe if TPP is literally the only litmus test you're using.

Fwiw, he qualified his opposition to the fast tracking of TPP (not the actual deal) with him standing up to the president, who at the time was obviously Obama. Which is a pretty obvious centrist move to do for someone running in a red state!

He ran to the right of Hillary, even if only marginally. He was absolutely not a Sanders-ite.

What areas was he to the right of Hillary on?

He obviously doesn't have much of a voting record, but on education he didn't have much of a platform and certainly didn't advocate for things like free college education like Hillary did. I'd say he took a much more hardline stance re: ISIS than Hillary did too. But honestly he didn't have much of a truly fleshed out plan at all.

At best, he ran as a mainstream Democrat. He did not run as a "Sanders-ite."

Besides, looking solely at him isn't even particular useful. We have way more data, even in the same state. Koster outran Hillary by 10 points running as a centrist endorsed by the NRA and both Jay Nixon and Koster outran Obama by 25(!) points in 2012. But people want to solely focus on Kander as if it's it the only data we have.
 
It looks like he didn't win any states and just had a surprise showing in Wisconsin even though he still lost?

And I never said Wallace wasn't successful or that Americans weren't racist in the 60's. Is Trump much better than Wallace though? Trump won.

Getting over 1/3 of the vote against a popular VP right after the Kennedy assassination is pretty striking. I actually got the years mixed up. It was '72 when there was a real chance of Wallace winning much of the midwest and forcing his way on the ballot at least as VP. Obviously we'll know never how that turned out since he was nearly assassinated the day before Michigan. My point is that Wallace, whose platform was based on explicit segregation received substantial support in the midwest near the peak of union strength.

What areas was he to the right of Hillary on?

Folks trying to locate Kander and Clinton ideologically are missing the point. Kander was able to run as an outsider and it paid off big for him. Looking back its the one reason why Sanders may have been the better nominee. I say that as someone who strongly supported Clinton throughout the race.
 
Also it's not the only ingredient necessary.
Right, this is what I'm saying here. If the literal only necessary precondition to Trump's success was running an explicitly racist campaign, any of the other incredibly racist candidates should have won and there's more to his success that just racism, even if that's the most important one.

I do think people downplay Romney's hawkish stance on immigration though, it wasn't quite as explicit as "build a wall" but it was key to his victory in the primary over Perry and even Gingrich.

Getting over 1/3 of the vote against a popular VP right after the Kennedy assassination is pretty striking. I actually got the years mixed up. It was '72 when there was a real chance of Wallace winning much of the midwest and forcing his way on the ballot at least as VP. Obviously we'll know never how that turned out since he was nearly assassinated the day before Michigan. My point is that Wallace, whose platform was based on explicit segregation received substantial support in the midwest near the peak of union strength.
Other than Michigan he didn't win any midwestern/Rust Belt states, though they did stick with Humphrey who won Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania (as well as the popular vote). McGovern was the one who won Wisconsin.

And I didn't say "unions make people totally unracist" but if all these people always and only cared about racism and segregation, Wallace should've been sweeping these states like he did the south, right? Not the pro-Civil Rights Humphrey (that they voted for over him 4 years ago).
 
Folks trying to locate Kander and Clinton ideologically are missing the point. Kander was able to run as an outsider and it paid off big for him. Looking back its the one reason why Sanders may have been the better nominee. I say that as someone who strongly supported Clinton throughout the race.

Also this - it's easily the biggest reason he did so well. But maybe people think "outsider = left" or something.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Your point is merely a question, not a rebuttal. "Why didn't a (more) racist presidential candidate run in 2008/2012"? But the answer to that question could be answered without reference to 1/2/3 because actors can be non-rational and have imperfect information.

You're quite right there might be alternative explanations. I'm all open to hearing them; they just don't seem to be forthcoming. But if your best go is "imperfect information" - that is, no politician until Trump managed to work out America was secretly racist - my explanation is still the most plausible.

logic stuff

plz.

kirblar's argument was If P (America is always racist), then Q (a racist candidate will always win), P, therefore Q. I'm saying that ¬Q (a racist candidate does not always win), which necessitates not either ¬P (America is not always racist) or ¬[P->Q] (even if America is always racist, that doesn't mean the racist candidates wins). This is modus tollens, or denying the consequent, which is a perfectly valid form of argument.

I'm not trying to argue that 1/2/3 is true; life is never as simple as a formal logical argument, I think we all agree on that. But it is beyond vapid to say in a formal logic context that sometimes a thing happens and sometimes it doesn't. Obviously when people say that something was the main cause they mean it in a more holistic sense as opposed to "whenever P, always Q."

Of course, obviously, which is why the rest of my post is then dedicated to a more qualitative explanation of why there was important context to this election.

Lot to unpack in so few sentences. Okay, so there's nothing wrong with your initial argument/claim per se but you're papering over a lot of issues by using general language like "secure" and "feel". Those are very subjective factors which you immediately try to correlate with a very objective factor, "white working class voters earning less than $30,000". That's a pretty big jump to say the least.

Now, I don't disagree with the claim that people who make less than $30,000 a year tend to have less secure financial situations than people who make more than $60,000 (that's self-evident), but I do disagree with the idea that a less secure financial situation automatically equates to higher susceptibility to racism, I'm gonna want those receipts. The fact that Trump earned a high share of white working class votes making less than $30,000 a year says nothing about their relative levels of racial thinking/bias compared to other demographic groups, we could (and I would argue we do) have other confounding variables.

Okay, so, let's examine it the other way round. The group I described was the marginal voter, that's an objectively true statement. There needs to be some connection between this group (their nature as white workers earning less than $30,000) and their decisions (voting Trump). I'm actually being relatively generous to kirblar by saying the link is: economic stagnation -> insecurity -> racism -> Trump. If it's not, then what are we left with? Economic stagnation -> Trump offered more appealing economics solutions -> Trump? Because that's even more disastrous for the Democrats - it implies Trump didn't even need to be racist to win.

Okay, I'm just going to ignore the fact that you completely discount that statistic about average wealth of voters (though it seems quite damning in my opinion) and focus on your piece on the marginal voter.

It's not really damning. It's just not that relevant. If you're looking to explain why Obama won in 2008, you don't say "California voted for him" when California has been voting Democratic for ages. You explain what changed between Obama and Kerry, or Obama and Dukakis. Trump won wealthy voters. So did Romney. But Romney didn't become president. So wealthy voters aren't the explanatory factor. What changed between Trump and Romney is that Trump won significantly more working class voters (not a majority, but more than the Republican norm). So that's what we need to explain when trying to find out why Trump won.

Most glaringly, you don't actually provide any statistics about the marginal/independent voter's income relative to Republican or Democratic voters. That seems very odd, after all, that's the entire thrust of your argument, less money = more response to racism = more votes for trump. So what was the average income of the marginal voter? I suspect the reason you don't bring it up is because http://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ot-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/.

No, actually. To be more specific, my argument is about the class of the marginal voter, for which income is a proxy. However, education is actually also a good proxy for class. Probably even a better proxy than income. If you are a 24 year old earning $26,000 in the big city at the start of your career in IT thanks to your degree, you're not in the same class as the 56 year old earning $26,000 as a car repair guy in the twilight of your career and no degree, even though you share the same income. Classes are best understood as groups of people for whom the sum and nature of the opportunities available throughout their lives are similar. In the modern economy, that's increasingly dictated by your educational attainment (as well as where you grew up, what your present income is, what your race is, whether you're a man or a woman).

I can't even parse the hoops you're jumping through to avoid the conclusion that racism mattered. He didn't win off racism he just won because he convinced more half-racists to vote for him. yeah, huh uh, cool, that sounds like a meaningful distinction.

It is a meaningful distinction, though. If Trump just won because America was irreparably racist and willl always vote for the racist candidate, we may as well just all commit suicide now. We've lost. If Trump won because he managed to persuade people who don't always vote for racist reasons to vote for racist reasons this one time in particular, then there's hope. We just need to figure out how to persuade them otherwise again. And the best way to do that is to look at the context that meant they were more easily susceptible to racist arguments.
 

JP_

Banned
Ellison losing - an activist, motivated base feeling deflated
Perez losing - campaign execs and former white house administrators feel deflated.
Alan Dershowitz leaves the party (I know I keep mentioning him, but never has the wellbye.gif been more appropriate, lol)

Seems like the latter would be preferable, but apparently not.

It is kind of interesting though, generally speaking, in one breath you hear Perez is "just as progressive as Ellison, why are people complaining?", yet a bunch of quotes you hear from insiders is "we want Perez because we don't want to move too far to the left". And another set of quotes that says "ideology doesn't matter for this job anyway". Seems like a bit of a contradiction there somewhere...

I wonder if the majority of DNC chair voters thought like this guy, assuming that someone who's black and muslim can't be a "rust belt populist" or win rural working-class votes (even though our black kenyan muslim former president was able to do well with this! harhar). It certainly fits in with the prevailing narrative that populism and the working class is somehow exclusive to angry white people.
Yeah, I'm mostly worried about deflating this current activism that's running strong -- protests, marches, town hall activity, etc. Dems need to be fueling those flames, not throwing water on them.
 
I tend to say something similar; that there's a large chunk of the US electorate that views the Democratic party as illegitimate due to their stances on things like guns, abortion, etc... Not just wrong on these issues, but straight up illegitimate. I know people who would rather die (literally) than vote Democrat (they talk about it in the same way they idolize those kids in school shootings who refuse to deny their religion and get killed as martyrs. They literally think that admitting at the pearly gates that you ever voted Dem will get you sent to Hell for our "immorality.")
Yeah, and that gives them a very high floor. I'm more speaking to the swing voters since they're the deciders.

There are certainly people who would never vote Republican, but I'd suggest that Democratic voters as a whole tend to be far more pragmatic. That's how you get Larry Hogan and Charlie Baker.
 
Yeah, and that gives them a very high floor. I'm more speaking to the swing voters since they're the deciders.

There are certainly people who would never vote Democratic, but I'd suggest that Democratic voters as a whole tend to be far more pragmatic. That's how you get Larry Hogan and Charlie Baker.

Exactly. For everything the GOP has done post-Southern Strategy, most Dems don't view them as an illegitimate party. Hell, if we put up some demagogue in 2020 like Kanye, and Trump steps aside and Romney runs, I'm voting for Romney. But for everything Trump has said and done, I know of no Republicans other than my mom who chose not to vote for him anyway.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Folks trying to locate Kander and Clinton ideologically are missing the point. Kander was able to run as an outsider and it paid off big for him. Looking back its the one reason why Sanders may have been the better nominee. I say that as someone who strongly supported Clinton throughout the race.

But this is what I'm arguing for. I think some people think I want to run some kind of candidate who quotes Marx and tries to raise class consciousness in the downtrodden proletarian through the virtues of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. No. I want a populist, just from our side. I mean, to quote Orwell,
To the ordinary working man, the sort you would meet in any pub on Saturday night, Socialism does not mean much more than better wages and shorter hours and nobody bossing you about.
That's the goal, that's what you sell.
 
But this is what I'm arguing for. I think some people think I want to run some kind of candidate who quotes Marx and tries to raise class consciousness in the downtrodden proletarian through the virtues of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. No. I want a populist, just from our side. I mean, to quote Orwell, That's the goal, that's what you sell.
have I told you the good word about Sherrod Brown
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Exactly. For everything the GOP has done post-Southern Strategy, most Dems don't view them as an illegitimate party. Hell, if we put up some demagogue in 2020 like Kanye, and Trump steps aside and Romney runs, I'm voting for Romney. But for everything Trump has said and done, I know of no Republicans other than my mom who chose not to vote for him anyway.

Yeah, and that gives them a very high floor. I'm more speaking to the swing voters since they're the deciders.

There are certainly people who would never vote Republican, but I'd suggest that Democratic voters as a whole tend to be far more pragmatic. That's how you get Larry Hogan and Charlie Baker.

all you really need to win statewide as a D in the South is 30-35% of the white vote with Blacks voting 90%+. If whites could become less polarizing down here in the future.....it wouldn't be such a hard task. All the D statewide winners of the past 40 years or more in the South won through a coalition of Black voters and a plurality of Whites.
 

tbm24

Member
Yeah, I'm mostly worried about deflating this current activism that's running strong -- protests, marches, town hall activity, etc. Dems need to be fueling those flames, not throwing water on them.

Those individuals likely do not care about this DNC chair race, if they did, their current actions wouldn't make sense because they didn't need a DNC chair to fuel them to begin with.
 

JP_

Banned
Those individuals likely do not care about this DNC chair race, if they did, their current actions wouldn't make sense because they didn't need a DNC chair to fuel them to begin with.
Umm, doesn't sound like you're involved in this stuff. They certainly care. And it's about whether or not the party they're fighting for feels like it's fighting for them.
 
Right, this is what I'm saying here. If the literal only necessary precondition to Trump's success was running an explicitly racist campaign, any of the other incredibly racist candidates should have won and there's more to his success that just racism, even if that's the most important one.
I don't know if anyone has ever really said it's the only necessary factor. Just that it's a very very very important factor this cycle. A vital factor.

The wall. Immigrants. Muslims.
Make America Great Again was a loud clear dog whistle.

John McCain, George W Bush or Mitt Romney, as racist as they may be implicitly, didn't make overt racially charged policies the central pillar of their campaign. They didn't motivate people to vote and swing due to their racism.
 

tbm24

Member
Umm, doesn't sound like you're involved in this stuff. They certainly care. And it's about whether or not the party they're fighting for feels like it's fighting for them.

No one I met during the NYC womens march, other protests in the city, or the local dem meetings I've gone to this year have brought it up. I could be wrong as my view is limited to my city or county, but I would be surprised if this affected their desire to protest and fight against Trump. If it does then I have to wonder why they bothered to begin with.
 
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