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[RustyNails]

the opposition

Lets not get our panties twisted over some...humor for a bumper sticker. This is NOT the DCCC's national strategy for 2018. If you're just worried about how it will play in the media/GOP/Optics, Fuck them. Fuck them allll.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

When does "medicare for all" not become a good message? If you get the youth vote that never votes but push the independents to the right, what good is this message? Middle class America doesn't want to give up their employer paid plan. They definitely don't want to pay more in taxes to have those plans replaced by a medicare system. Any serious healthcare proposals on the left better deal with this or they're all just as DOA as these GOP plans.

they do

and their costs wouldn't go up. they would go down and would see a wage boost.

Lets not get our panties twisted over some...humor for a bumper sticker. This is NOT the DCCC's national strategy for 2018. If you're just worried about how it will play in the media/GOP/Optics, Fuck them. Fuck them allll.

it is a small thing but we need to be more willing to criticise the absolute stupidity of the DCCC types.

 

[aeolist]

This isn't difficult. I could not afford to take on my employers portion of my healthcare while paying lifted taxes. I'm not wealthy. I'm squarely in the middle class column.

Bernie's plan was shat on from just about every angle from both the left and the right because of what the middle class perceived their burden would be.

why would you pay higher taxes for medicare expansion and then your employer's portion of private health coverage?

and single payer elsewhere leads to lower costs than what the US pays today with far better health outcomes. who on the left was shitting on that?

You're not very familiar with union construction worker healthcare plans are you?

how many people are in unions these days? and aren't unions generally further left that most of the US electorate anyway?

 

[PBY]

Lets not get our panties twisted over some...humor for a bumper sticker. This is NOT the DCCC's national strategy for 2018. If you're just worried about how it will play in the media/GOP/Optics, Fuck them. Fuck them allll.

Its just trash regardless of what it is. We understand its not a national strategy, but I don't trust the party at ALL with a national strategy, so it would be great to see them at least getting the small stuff right.

 

[kirblar]

You realize they'll shit on everything though, no? Its not like Obamacare wasn't transformed into death panels.

Dems need to not compromise and go for what they fucking believe in to be the best method of healthcare.

And you do not have enough Dems on board Single Payer as that option to make it viable.

(You should have enough on the Public Option though, which is why I suspect Sanders' recent tact towards it is leading up to a full-scale caucus sign-on or something.)

This isn't difficult. I could not afford to take on my employers portion of my healthcare while paying lifted taxes. I'm not wealthy. I'm squarely in the middle class column.

Bernie's plan was shat on from just about every angle from both the left and the right because of what the middle class perceived their burden would be.

You're not very familiar with union construction worker healthcare plans are you?

Yeah, like, I know how much my company pays per paycheck for my premium. (It is a fifth of my paycheck!)

 

[Abinash117]

It is possible to have a majority of the country be on a government run program while a minority uses private insurance. That's how the UK does it.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I think it's a funny bumper sticker

No fun allowed

 

[Kusagari]

That slogan is probably better than the one they'll actually come up with tbh.

 

[aeolist]

Lets not get our panties twisted over some...humor for a bumper sticker. This is NOT the DCCC's national strategy for 2018. If you're just worried about how it will play in the media/GOP/Optics, Fuck them. Fuck them allll.

i don't hate on it for what the gop will say, i hate it because it's the ultimate distillation of the last 30 years of the democratic party. it's the most honest thing i've ever seen from them and it should wake everyone up to exactly how terrible they are.

 

[kirblar]

It is possible to have a majority of the country be on a government run program while a minority uses private insurance. That's how the UK does it.

And the best way to get to that point is to put the public option out there in the wild and see what happens!

If it stays a competitive market, great! If it doesn't? Great!

 

[PBY]

i don't hate on it for what the gop will say, i hate it because it's the ultimate distillation of the last 30 years of the democratic party. it's the most honest thing i've ever seen from them and it should wake everyone up to exactly how terrible they are.

This is a great post.

 

[whyamihere]

hahahahahaha

http://www.thedailybeast.com/us-commandos-running-out-of-isis-targets

Coalition air strikes have increased under Trump, rising from an average of roughly 440 a month in the last six months of 2016 to just under 800 a month now, as coalition forces have liberated most of Mosul in Iraq, and breached ISIS’ Syrian capital of Raqqa. But the lower numbers of high-value targets killed points to the deadly success of the strategy built by the Obama White House.

Trump’s changes to the campaign so far have been tactical—namely, giving the military more autonomy to strike, including special operators. But the effectiveness of the current Obama-era strategy of attacking ISIS via local forces together with allies calls into question whether there’s a need for more dramatic revision.

That’s presented a dilemma for those working on the Trump anti-ISIS strategy and slowed its public unveiling, U.S. officials tell The Daily Beast. The White House has asked defense officials to come up with new ideas to help brand the Trump campaign as different from its predecessor, according to two U.S. officials and one senior administration official. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive debates.

 

[Poodlestrike]

why would you pay higher taxes for medicare expansion and then your employer's portion of private health coverage?

and single payer elsewhere leads to lower costs than what the US pays today with far better health outcomes. who on the left was shitting on that?


how many people are in unions these days? and aren't unions generally further left that most of the US electorate anyway?

Because medicare expansion might very well be worse than your employer plans?

There's a LOT of different strata to the US employer health insurance market. Union plans are part of it, but there's plenty of middle class white collar workers with decent coverage.

The thing about the costs argument is that right now, the costs are hidden pretty effectively. A Medicare for All system that totally supplants the current structure puts all that out in the open and people get sticker shock.

Plenty of Democrats can get behind single payer, even more support a public option and other addons to the ACA like dropping the Medicare age to 55 and, yeah, offering catastrophic plans for people young enough to think going to the doctor is mostly pointless. This whole "Dems have no ideas" crap is silly. We have a ton of ideas. We don't have lockstep consensus but that's because we're interested in figuring out which idea is best, as opposed to Republicans, who have exactly 3 real policy goals: reinforce the patriarchy, reinforce white supremacy, cut taxes. It's gonna take us longer to get all moving in one direction, and the debate around ideas is a healthy part of that process.

 

[tedrotheredro]

i do.

Seriously, that's some major hyperbole. Outrage over services not running as well as intended is not the same as red states not giving a fuck about infrastructure, social issues, and public transportation.

Also, good luck finding skilled workers in Pittsburgh.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

why would you pay higher taxes for medicare expansion and then your employer's portion of private health coverage?

and single payer elsewhere leads to lower costs than what the US pays today with far better health outcomes. who on the left was shitting on that?


how many people are in unions these days? and aren't unions generally further left that most of the US electorate anyway?

You've got to pay Medicare expansion some way. Most likely increased taxes.

If employers no longer need to provide insurance, do you think they'll increase salaries to compensate? Because I don't. Surely if you're skeptical of corporations and businesses you wouldn't think so either.

There's a chance the middle class is left with the same salary but increased taxes.

 

[Gallbaro]

i do.

Have you ever lived outside of NY? 10 year bridge replacements, subways falling apart, utility expense, hour long waits at the DMV are not normal in the USA or outside.

Genuinely curios what good deal you think we are getting?

Seriously, that's some major hyperbole. Outrage over services not running as well as intended is not the same as red states not giving a fuck about infrastructure, social issues, and public transportation.

Also, good luck finding skilled workers in Pittsburgh.

Infrastructure in red states is amazing most of the time. Social issues are not cost issues. Carnegie Mellon and U of Pitt actually are better technical engineering feeds than NYC based universities are. Most NY area engineering programs focus of spec' engineering.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Have you ever lived outside of NY? 10 year bridge replacements, subways falling apart, utility expense, hour long waits at the DMV are not normal in the USA or outside.

Genuinely curios what good deal you think we are getting?

I mean, you're getting 10 year bridge replacements instead of none, subways that exist at all despite poor condition...

Like, red states do not give a FUCK about providing services to anybody who isn't rich. NYC isn't perfect but it's doing a hell of a lot better than those hellholes.

Trust me, I live in one.

 

[Fenderputty]

they do

and their costs wouldn't go up. they would go down and would see a wage boost.

I don't doubt you, which is why I'm asking for a citation. Specifically how their costs would go down.

why would you pay higher taxes for medicare expansion and then your employer's portion of private health coverage?


how many people are in unions these days? and aren't unions generally further left that most of the US electorate anyway?

I might be double dipping when I made that comment, but unless my employer gives their portion of my healthcare to me as wages before I see a lift in taxes, I will be paying more.

Union construction workers are an odd bunch on the political spectrum. Mostly because of education IMO. That being said, all the union electricians in IBEW as an example should have gold rated plans. The company I work for bases their wage scale off of union wages even though I, as a project manager, am not union.

I pay about $360 a month currently for my wife and daughter. We have Kaiser. I pay $10 for copays and 10$-$15 for most prescriptions. I have no deductible or out of pocket. The birth of my child, which resulted in 4 days hospital stay and emergency C Section only cost me $10. My plan isn't as good as the construction worker's plan.

 

[Makai]

Have you ever lived outside of NY? 10 year bridge replacements, subways falling apart, utility expense, hour long waits at the DMV are not normal in the USA or outside.

Genuinely curios what good deal you think we are getting?

Subway's cool but yeah everything else is ridiculous compared to smaller cities. Cost of living felt roughly the same to me other than random BS fees everywhere and unavailability of cheap quality food.

 

[Doc Holliday]

This North Korea situation is getting very unsettling :/

The fact that it's Trump at the helm and not Clinton/Obama or hell even Romney or Pence is not helping.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Randy Bryce (WI-1 candidate against Paul Ryan) raised $430,000 in two weeks

Tim Canyonero (FL-23 primary candidate against Debbie Wasserman-Schultz who Bernie endorsed and then claimed he didn't know) raised $32,000 in two weeks

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

This infighting is stupid, except I bet Aolist and the like don't consider themselves "in", or rather don't consider the dem poster "in" with them.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Snow removal is pretty great in NYS

But that's my county that does that, so I guess it's not really applicable.

 

[Gallbaro]

I mean, you're getting 10 year bridge replacements instead of none, subways that exist at all despite poor condition...

Like, red states do not give a FUCK about providing services to anybody who isn't rich. NYC isn't perfect but it's doing a hell of a lot better than those hellholes.

Trust me, I live in one.

So have I as well as the Netherlands for a year. Never felt like I was getting ripped off for my tax dollar in either. NYC and NYS are just ineffective at providing services.

Also just going to the road conditions, not my main concern but just an easy target, NYC easily has the worst roads in the country. Red states love building and rebuilding roads.

Edit: Just to clarify internal discussion to move the Pittsburgh did not begin until the subway system started failing and it does not look like it is going to change. My existing employees and our locations in the city rely on transit.

 

[RustyNails]

Its just trash regardless of what it is. We understand its not a national strategy, but I don't trust the party at ALL with a national strategy, so it would be great to see them at least getting the small stuff right.

Its a good bumper sticker though!

 

[Poodlestrike]

Its just trash regardless of what it is. We understand its not a national strategy, but I don't trust the party at ALL with a national strategy, so it would be great to see them at least getting the small stuff right.

What's the "small stuff" in this case, though? It's a deliberately humorous bumper sticker. What's your preferred funny slogan to be stuck on the back of a car by somebody with more enthusiasm than taste?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Because medicare expansion might very well be worse than your employer plans?

There's a LOT of different strata to the US employer health insurance market. Union plans are part of it, but there's plenty of middle class white collar workers with decent coverage.

The thing about the costs argument is that right now, the costs are hidden pretty effectively. A Medicare for All system that totally supplants the current structure puts all that out in the open and people get sticker shock.

Plenty of Democrats can get behind single payer, even more support a public option and other addons to the ACA like dropping the Medicare age to 55 and, yeah, offering catastrophic plans for people young enough to think going to the doctor is mostly pointless. This whole "Dems have no ideas" crap is silly. We have a ton of ideas. We don't have lockstep consensus but that's because we're interested in figuring out which idea is best, as opposed to Republicans, who have exactly 3 real policy goals: reinforce the patriarchy, reinforce white supremacy, cut taxes. It's gonna take us longer to get all moving in one direction, and the debate around ideas is a healthy part of that process.

it wouldn't be because a full scale medicare expansion would literally be the same thing for you.

worst case is it doesn't cover dental which could still be offered by your employer

and how would you get sticker shock if your literally not seeing any changes in your paycheck, in fact you'd likely see a boost.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

So have I as well as the Netherlands for a year. Never felt like I was getting ripped off for my tax dollar in either. NYC and NYS are just ineffective at providing services.

Also just going to the road conditions, not my main concern but just an easy target, NYC easily has the worst roads in the country. Red states love building and rebuilding roads.

this just isn't true.

 

[PBY]

What's the "small stuff" in this case, though? It's a deliberately humorous bumper sticker. What's your preferred funny slogan to be stuck on the back of a car by somebody with more enthusiasm than taste?

Its a good bumper sticker though!

First of all, its not funny.

Second, it reinforces all the negative shit that people say about the leadership and fundamentally does not inspire any confidence in me that they are capable of effective messaging.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

What's the "small stuff" in this case, though? It's a deliberately humorous bumper sticker. What's your preferred funny slogan to be stuck on the back of a car by somebody with more enthusiasm than taste?

"Single-payer healthcare is a healthcare system in which the state, financed by taxes, covers basic healthcare costs for all residents regardless of income, occupation, or health status. The alternatives include "multi-payer" systems in which private individuals or their employers buy health insurance or healthcare services from private or public providers.

Single-payer systems may contract for healthcare services from private organizations (as is the case in Canada) or may own and employ healthcare resources and personnel (as is the case in the United Kingdom). "Single-payer" describes the mechanism by which healthcare is paid for by a single public authority, not the type of delivery or for whom physicians work. In contrast, multi-payer healthcare uses a mixed public-private system."

It's catchy and easy to see on a bumper sticker

 

[VendettaRed07]

Lets not get our panties twisted over some...humor for a bumper sticker. This is NOT the DCCC's national strategy for 2018. If you're just worried about how it will play in the media/GOP/Optics, Fuck them. Fuck them allll.

It isn't really optics for me. I think it's fair to call into question the judgement of whoever is in charge if they think they are in the position to sell off "jokes" like this.

They just suffered the most humiliating result ever and hold no position of power and a likely record low positions from dog catcher up.

It's nice to think that this won't be the strategy come later but I've seen little so far to show me like they have an idea of where they are going. Putting something like this out regardless of its intent just comes off to me as arrogant. As if how badly republicans have governed so far entitles them to votes going forward. But they should know by now, they aren't.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I don't doubt you, which is why I'm asking for a citation. Specifically how their costs would go down.
.

a medicare for all system would reduce prices due to increased negotiating power or rate setting. private insurers can't do that they don't hold a monopoly. this would decrease the cost charged that private insurers now have to charge through premiums.

Have you ever lived outside of NY? 10 year bridge replacements, subways falling apart, utility expense, hour long waits at the DMV are not normal in the USA or outside.

Genuinely curios what good deal you think we are getting?



Infrastructure in red states is amazing most of the time. Social issues are not cost issues. Carnegie Mellon and U of Pitt actually are better technical engineering feeds than NYC based universities are. Most NY area engineering programs focus of spec' engineering.

Yes, I've lived outside new york.

 

[VendettaRed07]

What's the "small stuff" in this case, though? It's a deliberately humorous bumper sticker. What's your preferred funny slogan to be stuck on the back of a car by somebody with more enthusiasm than taste?

My preferred funny slogan is no funny slogan.

Win something first. Troll later.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

"Single-payer healthcare is a healthcare system in which the state, financed by taxes, covers basic healthcare costs for all residents regardless of income, occupation, or health status. The alternatives include "multi-payer" systems in which private individuals or their employers buy health insurance or healthcare services from private or public providers.

Single-payer systems may contract for healthcare services from private organizations (as is the case in Canada) or may own and employ healthcare resources and personnel (as is the case in the United Kingdom). "Single-payer" describes the mechanism by which healthcare is paid for by a single public authority, not the type of delivery or for whom physicians work. In contrast, multi-payer healthcare uses a mixed public-private system."

It's catchy and easy to see on a bumper sticker

Health Care for All. Put that on a bumper sticker

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Health Care for All. Put that on a bumper sticker

The GOP is also promising Health Care For All, it's not a good slogan

It could mean an entirely different thing depending on what the person reading it wants

 

[PBY]

The GOP is also promising Health Care For All, it's not a good slogan

Are they? I have not seen that.

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

Are they? I have not seen that.

It's the reason why Trump was popular. Lots of people enternalizing Eric's attacks here, just short of "not even people."

 

[Poodlestrike]

it wouldn't be because a full scale medicare expansion would literally be the same thing for you.

worst case is it doesn't cover dental which could still be offered by your employer

and how would you get sticker shock if your literally not seeing any changes in your paycheck, in fact you'd likely see a boost.

Well, that's probably not true. Medicare is solid coverage but it isn't all-encompassing, you still see better private and employer plans (albeit not all of them).

As for the second bit, "costs 1 trillion dollars" paid for by a 15% payroll tax feels like a really high cost. It'd also take a while for those increased wages to percolate out, so the immediate effect would be a massive perceived wage decrease.

First of all, its not funny.

Second, it reinforces all the negative shit that people say about the leadership and fundamentally does not inspire any confidence in me that they are capable of effective messaging.

Ehhhhh it's pretty funny.

My preferred funny slogan is no funny slogan.

Win something first. Troll later.

This is actually bad messaging, imo. People respond well to humor. It can't be all 100% serious doom gloom and thunder all of the time.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Are they? I have not seen that.

"Affordable Healthcare For All" is the talking point for the AHCA.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Fox and Friends told me that democrats should stop talking about Russia because it hurts them.

My takeaway: Democrats should definitely keep talking about Russia.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The US is terrible at building infrastructure even in major liberal cities, this isn't really debatable.

We need to figure out why our projects are so much more expensive (overall, per passenger, and per square foot) than projects in Europe and Asia.

 

[Suikoguy]

Fox and Friends told me that democrats should stop talking about Russia because it hurts them.

My takeaway: Democrats should definitely keep talking about Russia.

My suggestion: Talk about the new news, especially via reporters requests for comment, but don't go out of the way to bring it up.

It's a self-sustaining news cycle that needs little help to keep going.

The US is terrible at building infrastructure even in major liberal cities, this isn't really debatable.

We need to figure out why our projects are so much more expensive (overall, per passenger, and per square foot) than projects in Europe and Asia.

Some of it is over-regulated here (yes, seriously).
It's a matter of figuring out what regulations are necessary and which ones are superfluous.
As a somewhat related example; My dad who has been a state certified residential contractor for decades, laughs at some of the housing regulations, but sees the need for many of them.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Well, that's probably not true. Medicare is solid coverage but it isn't all-encompassing, you still see better private and employer plans (albeit not all of them).

As for the second bit, "costs 1 trillion dollars" paid for by a 15% payroll tax feels like a really high cost. It'd also take a while for those increased wages to percolate out, so the immediate effect would be a massive perceived wage decrease.

any medicare for all would be all-encompassing, it would cover all necessary services

and the increased wages would be immediate. you'd literally see the money your employer pays insurance in your pay check. if not your employer just gave you a pay cut. people do realize health insurance is part of their wages?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

The GOP is also promising Health Care For All, it's not a good slogan

It could mean an entirely different thing depending on what the person reading it wants

no they aren't

and health care for all means one thing. you'd have to put qualifiers for it not to mean health care for all

 

[The Technomancer]

people do realize health insurance is part of their wages?

They super don't

 

[kirblar]

They super don't

Yup. It's invisible to them. I only know because my company advertises the bonkers amount they're spending to us during enrollment.

 

[Poodlestrike]

any medicare for all would be all-encompassing, it would cover all necessary services

and the increased wages would be immediate. you'd literally see the money your employer pays insurance in your pay check. if not your employer just gave you a pay cut. people do realize health insurance is part of their wages?

Firstly, to the bolded, no they mostly don't. It's part of the compensation package, but that's different from wages, as most people see it.

Secondly, just calling it "medicare for all" implies that it's... medicare for all. As in, it covers what Medicare covers we just got rid of the age limit.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

They super don't

its the most frustrating thing when we discuss single payer. STICKER SHOCK, HUGE TAX INCREASE!

Firstly, to the bolded, no they mostly don't.

Secondly, just calling it "medicare for all" implies that it's... medicare for all. As in, it covers what Medicare covers we just got rid of the age limit.

medicare for all is simpler to sell. it'd see medicare covered services expand

 

[Gallbaro]

The US is terrible at building infrastructure even in major liberal cities, this isn't really debatable.

We need to figure out why our projects are so much more expensive (overall, per passenger, and per square foot) than projects in Europe and Asia.

The dirty secret is labor. Not wage, but productivity.

Spoiler

Well most of the time, a lot of labor in the public transit industry are top 20% of wage earners in the states, not exactly middle class

It takes 5 times as many people to operate the same tunnel boring machine in NYC than it does in London.

Secondary to that is Civil Law vs. Common Law. That explains the difference between London costs and French costs.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

As part of a Medicare for All package, employers should be required to publish to their employees how much they have been paying them in the form of health insurance, required to pay them at least X% of that sum in the form of future wages, and fined if they don't comply with either of these measures.

Single-payer is about getting people to buy into a narrative as much as a policy.

Edit: In fact, you could do the first thing right now, allow time for the sentiment of how much people are "losing" on employer-provided health insurance to percolate.