RustyNails
Member
Wait, why is GOP tweeting about Hillary Clinton? Fucking burn this party to the ground.
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house
- Thread starter Spoiled Milk
- Start date
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Damn.
"Holy shit everything is awful LOOK OVER THERE IT'S HILLARY CLINTON DON'T YOU HATE HER"
"We don't know how to fix thing but NEITHER DO THEY!" -The party currently in control of the United states.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
George W. Bush was a household bogeyman for Democrats for years after he left office
BoogieWoogie
Banned
Well I mean considering the shit he did, can you blame Dems?
He was president tho
RustyNails
Member
Thats because George W Bush actually fucked the pooch before he left office, and Obama had to clean up his mess. This would be like if Dems blamed John McCain after 2008.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Was he, though? Politics moves so quickly. I don't remember much reference to Bush after, I guess, the 2010 mid-terms, I think because the Tea Party sort of shattered the clear line of continuity. For all his many, many faults, Bush was not of the same ideological lineage as even a few years later and I think the Democrats recognised that and looked for different targets - like Palin, who was getting (justly) villified for at least up until 2013-14, at least from my anecdotal perception. It wouldn't have made sense to go after Bush when even Republicans at the time disassociated with Bush (for the wrong reasons, but there you go).
It makes sense for the GOP to go after Clinton, since the Democrats still seem ideologically in an identical position to where they were in 2016 and have no major new faces, so she's still one of the most visible targets and symbols of the Democratic movement (maybe second to Pelosi now). They'll probably stop when(/if) that changes and the party either disassociates from her or there's someone more prominent to have a go at.
Blows my mind how the most "patriotic" types of people can support the least patriotic President we've probably ever had.
Resident_UA
Member
Bush is technically a better human being than Trump, but he caused a lot more damage and misery than most of the US presidents. Trump has quite a steep hill to climb.
That is a long term problem and a cost impact that will likely fall on the company anyway (federal taxes).
Short term the Red states ARE very attractive due to lower cost of living (pay employees less, but more when normalized for cost of living) and much lower taxes.
Play your small violins but I write this as a business owner in NYC. Hell I have been looking at moving to Pittsburgh. I literally paid 46% (not marginal, but effective) income tax last year. NYC housing Cost of Living then quickly eat up most of my income.
Effective tax rate Would have been 38% in Pittsburgh and cost of living would have been significantly less.
Besides its not like anyone ever looked at any government service New York State or New York City provides and thinks what a great deal we are getting for our collective taxes and fees.
The hell. Too much to unpack there, starting with why @GOP was tweeting at her in the first place.
If you liked it then you should have put a ring on it, America.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
Thank God Trump is lazy and stupid, though I'm sure this will bite us in the ass in some other form or fashion.
Randolph Freelander
Member
GOP account was tweeting at a lot of Democrats, not just Hillary, asking where their plans were.
I guess they kind of assumed Democrats were like GOP in having no actual plans.
whyamihere
Banned
the opposition
oh man. booo.
the democratic plan is still obamacare, which is a proven electoral loser for them. if the party uniformly and consistently advocated for single payer it would be much harder for the gop to do this shit.
As if the GOP can't then advocate that everyone's taxes will go up. If there is anything people don't like is taxes.
There is no magic message here that has no downsides. Given that people whine incessantly on how bad Democrats are at messaging, they can't just throw out a "whatever" Single Payer message.
the gop will message that anyway. literally anything the left puts up will be called job killing socialism, and their base will always buy it.
stop caring about what they say and advocate for things your base wants.
Sorry but if there is anything Americans of all stripes are complete dumbasses about is their taxes. You can scare most people with tax questions. It doesn't help that they are right, taxes would be needed to pay for that, even if single payer is worth the cost. If you want policies to last a long time without getting people to demonize them, you have to get buy-in from more people than just the base.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
To be fair, a media analysis of all of her advertisements showed exactly that.
the opposition
Those DCCC stickers are just mindblowingly stupid. Can we PLEASE hire some top marketing people to get on this? I cannot believe how bad the national democratic party seems when it comes to creating a unifying message.
Simple. Mexico will pay for single payer.
if you believe that then why aren't you a nihilist? because it would mean the democrats have to move right forever, which provably doesn't work, and the gop will just get worse until everything explodes either figuratively or literally.
Macho Madness
Member
This has been the GOP's message for decades so I'm not inclined to give a fuck
You realize that accepting that taxes will never ever go up means we're stuck in this status quo or worse hell forever. Raising taxes on rich people is popular as hell. Run on that. Tell people what these greedy fucks are going to pay for.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
While I don't share your pessimism exactly, I agree that people don't like taxes. It's why I like a public option; take whatever you were going to tax people for healthcare and split it into 12 monthly payments that they buy if they want (while requiring insurance with a mandate). I'd guess you'd see over 85% enrollment without technically raising middle class taxes. People love the illusion of choice.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Apparently it's not a banable offense either.
It seems we over-corrected after that rouge admin was banning too many people.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
maybe we should co-opt some Republican ideas like it's 1992 and go for it
Arne Duncan 2020: "We have too many public schools"
Arne Duncan 2020: "We have too many public schools"
You have to craft the right message. Unlike you, I don't think *Single Payer* is a magic phrase that makes everyone come chomping for that, especially when weight against aforementioned downsides. Thus the message has to be crafted very carefully to make it more palatable.
Seemingly given that so many attack the Democrats for poor messaging of good policies then clearly they're bound to fail in this endeavour. Maybe not just jumping in and expecting magic words to do their jobs for them, they should take care with how they message things.
As I noted, I'm not exactly pessimistic, but I do think you have to be careful when proposing a solution, any solution. Single payer is not exempted, so the angles should be considered. You can't just say the words and expect a policy (or even an outline) to magically form itself.
You don't. A lot of voters do. I agree it is stupid, but I think a lot of people *are* stupid.
personally i think the democrats have poor messaging of bad policies (let's means-test everything and make a shiny website that's impossible to use if you want healthcare), and moving to good and popular policies (which are coincidentally far and away easier to message, like "everyone gets medicare") would do much better for them.
eBay Huckster
Member
Ray LaHood 2020: "BUILD HSR EVERYWHERE"
"Everyone gets medicare" is easily turned into "They're going to take away your healthcare and give you inferior government plans".
people like medicare, which is why it's survived for so long in the last few decades of deficit hawks. up until this year it's been a political third rail that absolutely no one would seriously consider touching.
edit. and again you people are worried about republican messaging. stop. focus on winning the people who don't vote because they believe that democrats won't really do anything for them, and get them to the polls by promising them good things.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
wait holy shit that DCCC sticker is real? I honestly thought that was a parody of Dem messaging from red rose twitter
ON BOARD WITH THIS NOW
VendettaRed07
Member
It's actually legitimately disgusting how bad they are.
You wouldn't even need top marketing people either. I think Literally any random idiot you could pull out of a phone book would be able to read the room better than these guys.
You realize they'll shit on everything though, no? Its not like Obamacare wasn't transformed into death panels.
Dems need to not compromise and go for what they fucking believe in to be the best method of healthcare.
Those people who don't vote are precisely in that position because they don't necessarily have good political judgement and are susceptible to nonsense propaganda.
I'd say their base approach to politics is very much like Trump's. Repeat the last thing a person told them. Thus your message has to be robust enough to stick and survive whatever propaganda is thrown their way. This includes being messaged the right way, it isn't enough to expect people to recognize the inherent virtue of the policy.
whyamihere
Banned
Futurevoid
Member
The DCCC has officially played its "Trump" card.
the opposition
.........I'll see my way out.
Aaron Strife
Banned
I think people also need to accept that Obama and the Democrats probably also felt that working within the private insurance industry, in the context of 2009 was the better option over single payer.
Always jumping to "Democrats caved again" isn't super productive. Getting rid of the public option was caving. Not doing single payer wasn't caving. Obama didn't run on that and he won a huge mandate with ACA as a part of his platform.
Always jumping to "Democrats caved again" isn't super productive. Getting rid of the public option was caving. Not doing single payer wasn't caving. Obama didn't run on that and he won a huge mandate with ACA as a part of his platform.
timetokill
Banned
"MEDICARE FOR ALL" is the easiest message to use IMO
dynamitejim
Member
benicillin
Banned
They should sell Trump cards so we could all play them and like have Trump making a really dumb face on them. That'd get him.
Fenderputty
Banned
When does "medicare for all" not become a good message? If you get the youth vote that never votes but push the independents to the right, what good is this message? Middle class America doesn't want to give up their employer paid plan. They definitely don't want to pay more in taxes to have those plans replaced by a medicare system. Any serious healthcare proposals on the left better deal with this or they're all just as DOA as these GOP plans.
because popular universal programs are much harder to destroy than shit like the ACA, and because i don't trust aetna more than ryan/mcconnell
This fear of "pushing independents to the right" is based on what exactly?
The same people who switched from Obama to Trump are going to stay with Trump because they're getting better healthcare?
Give me a break. I don't believe there's this significant contingent of moderate centrists - or at least haven't seen that data. Do we have numbers on this?
edit: Also, what does "Middle class America" even mean at this point? Actually asking.
Fenderputty
Banned
This isn't difficult. I could not afford to take on my employers portion of my healthcare while paying lifted taxes. I'm not wealthy. I'm squarely in the middle class column.
Bernie's plan was shat on from just about every angle from both the left and the right because of what the middle class perceived their burden would be.
You're not very familiar with union construction worker healthcare plans are you?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
i do.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
luckily the centrists are coming up with compelling alternative visions to single payer, like "what if we let kids buy really shitty plans so they don't have to worry about the mandate but they still can give money to insurance companies"
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