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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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jtb

Banned
You pass it in the waning hours of the lame duck session after the successful passage of single payer has already wiped out 50-60 of your house seats, 8-10 senate seats, and you're relegated to permanent minority status again.

In all seriousness, reparations should be ahead of free college on the Bernie priority list. I fucking hate that free college proposal.
 
You must have been a real optimist for the Republicans getting everything they wanted done this year huh? Sorry, but whipping votes for terribly unpopular legislation that would create a red tsunami isn't so simple or easy. And there are a ton of consequences for what legislation a party passes.

Those consequences were always going to happen. Believe me, I'm thrilled that the GOP seems to be incompetent and actually thinks they won't suffer midterm losses, but they will. With or without ACA repeal.

To this end, fuck Lieberman.

Probably because white people also benefit from welfare.

A lot of them don't think they do!
 
In all seriousness, reparations should be ahead of free college on the Bernie priority list. I fucking hate that free college proposal.

Back during the primary when I was at university, it was the #1 reason everyone I knew wanted him to be president.

I didn't agree with it because its a hand out to mostly white middle-upper class but I think thats how he got the millennials on his side.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
A lot of them don't think they do!

A lot of poor idiot white people genuinely think there's a government program called "welfare" that they aren't getting. What they don't realize is their disability checks and food stamps are the only welfare that exists and they're just as much of useless leeches on the system as they accuse minorities of being.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Back during the primary when I was at university, it was the #1 reason everyone I knew wanted him to be president.

I didn't agree with it because its a hand out to mostly white middle-upper class but I think thats how he got the millennials on his side.

Cutting off the nose to spite the face
 
I think improving K-12 was both more feasible and would yield better results. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It would at least help more people on the lower end of the economic spectrum.

"Free college" is more tangible, though. Improving K-12 involves a lot of subtle, hard-to-market reforms because the problems run quite a bit deeper than just lack of funding.
 

Pixieking

Banned
"Free college" is more tangible, though. Improving K-12 involves a lot of subtle, hard-to-market reforms because the problems run quite a bit deeper than just lack of funding.

Not to disagree, but this just goes back to the infantilisation of politics. Very rarely is there an easy answer, or an easy description of a political problem - education, immigration, retraining, tax, healthcare. The more politicians pander to the electorate in pushing soundbites or nice-sounding non-answers, the more the electorate expects easy solutions.

We saw this with the 2016 election - Clinton and her "We need to retrain" answers to ex-coal miners, vs Trump's "Bring back coal/clean coal".
 
Not to disagree, but this just goes back to the infantilisation of politics. Very rarely is there an easy answer, or an easy description of a political problem - education, immigration, retraining, tax, healthcare. The more politicians pander to the electorate in pushing soundbites or nice-sounding non-answers, the more the electorate expects easy solutions.

We saw this with the 2016 election - Clinton and her "We need to retrain" answers to ex-coal miners, vs Trump's "Bring back coal/clean coal".

I agree, but the dumbing-down of society happened over decades (compare PBS in the 1970s to what it is today), and the building-back-up of society will require the same, if it's even possible (which it may not be; Trump is kind of a Gaius Marius with a Sullan worldview, so a Caesar seems the next logical step to me).
 

Gruco

Banned
I think improving K-12 was both more feasible and would yield better results. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

It would at least help more people on the lower end of the economic spectrum.
The fact that something as regressive as free higher education became the rallying cry ahead of universal pre k, something much more progressive and much more effective, is a gigantic embarrassment.
 

kirblar

Member
Like what?
https://www.brookings.edu/research/lessons-from-the-end-of-free-college-in-england/

As demand for college-educated workers increased during the late 1980s and 1990s, however, college enrollments rose dramatically and the free system began to strain at the seams. Government funding failed to keep up, and institutional resources per full-time equivalent student declined by over 25 percent in real terms between 1987 and 1994.[6] In 1994, the government imposed explicit limits on the numbers of state-supported students each university could enroll. Despite these controls, per-student resources continued to fall throughout the 1990s. By 1998, funding had fallen to about half the level of per-student investment that the system had provided in the 1970s.

In addition, even as enrollments rose overall, low-income students fell further and further behind despite the zero price tag. Figure 1 shows that the gap in degree attainment between high- and low-income families more than doubled during this period, from 14 to 37 percentage points[7] (note that in the highly structured English curriculum, enrollment and completion are almost the same thing, in contrast to the U.S.[8]).

To summarize, one of the main challenges of the free college era in England was insufficient funding to support the “massification” of higher education. As competition for spots increased, it appeared that the free college tuition subsidy was increasingly going to those from the richest backgrounds.

You can see some similar issues emerging with that Cali school choosing to just drop its remedial courses.
 
I guess people are unaware that even in Commie California, people don't want to vote for an AG who will promise to be soft on criminals, especially a female POC. I mean, she almost lost her original AG race, despite it being California and the rest of the statewide Democratic ticket winning by a mile.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I think improving K-12 was both more feasible and would yield better results. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It would at least help more people on the lower end of the economic spectrum.

Making K-12 worth something again would go a long way towards fixing education in this country. Free college is a band-aid, it doesn't fix the issues we have and will just make master's degrees the new requirement.
 
I guess people are unaware that even in Commie California, people don't want to vote for an AG who will promise to be soft on criminals, especially a female POC. I mean, she almost lost her original AG race, despite it being California and the rest of the statewide Democratic ticket winning by a mile.

Another reason electing attorney generals is a bad idea.
 
Another reason electing attorney generals is a bad idea.

I mean, if we're only going to nominate people from dark blue urban liberals with perfectly progressive on every issue that is now becoming salient despite being no big deal even four years ago, we're going to have a long road ahead of us.
 
I mean, if we're only going to nominate people from dark blue urban liberals with perfectly progressive on every issue that is now becoming salient despite being no big deal even four years ago, we're going to have a long road ahead of us.

I meant that having state AG offices be elected is not a terribly great idea, not that former AGs shouldn't run for President.
 

Holmes

Member
I guess people are unaware that even in Commie California, people don't want to vote for an AG who will promise to be soft on criminals, especially a female POC. I mean, she almost lost her original AG race, despite it being California and the rest of the statewide Democratic ticket winning by a mile.
It was 2010 and her opponent was the strongest statewide Republican candidate and was from LA, but you raise some good points.
 

Ogodei

Member
I meant that having state AG offices be elected is not a terribly great idea, not that former AGs shouldn't run for President.

The dynamic's different at the state level. I like the idea of the AG representing the state itself rather than the state's current government. It can provide a check, like when Kathleen Kane was AG (before she got taken down for corruption) balancing Tom Corbett plus the red PA legislature in Pennsylvania.

Ditto Jim Hood in Mississippi, the only statewide Dem officeholder and possible voice of sanity against an otherwise ruby-red regime.
 

antonz

Member
Mattis sent out an interesting Memo to the DoD really hammering in on ethical behavior

DGbBKUXXoAAao8_.jpg
 

sphagnum

Banned
I think improving K-12 was both more feasible and would yield better results. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

It would at least help more people on the lower end of the economic spectrum.

Why not both...?

Free college was a reaction to the huge student debt crisis.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/lessons-from-the-end-of-free-college-in-england/



You can see some similar issues emerging with that Cali school choosing to just drop its remedial courses.

Doesn't sound insurmountable, just a problem of funding rather than something structural.
 

Armaros

Member
Why not both...?

Free college was a reaction to the huge student debt crisis.



Doesn't sound insurmountable, just a problem of funding rather than something structural.

Maybe if K-12 wasn't a glorified daycare, the push for college for everyone would not be necessary and student debt wouldnt be such a widespread issue.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I think improving K-12 was both more feasible and would yield better results. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It would at least help more people on the lower end of the economic spectrum.

Do you have anything specific in mind you want to be improved about our compulsory education? Or are you just looking for a candidate that makes it part of their platform?

There is really no simple or clear solution to improving K-12 for the entire nation that I can see, since we give individual States and even Counties a lot of freedom to do their own thing.
 

Pixieking

Banned
Do you have anything specific in mind you want to be improved about our compulsory education? Or are you just looking for a candidate that makes it part of their platform?

There is really no simple or clear solution to improving K-12 for the entire nation that I can see, since we give individual States and even Counties a lot of freedom to do their own thing.

Are you saying that there's a lot of freedom in the basic educational curriculum in the US? If so, why would States and Counties have leeway in something so important? I mean, obviously on a very local level apportioning funds for Special Educational Needs and learning resources makes sense, but beyond that, it just makes it difficult to have a consistent education level across the entire country.

(If that makes sense, as a question. I'm from the UK, so have no clue how the US system works.)
 
Are you saying that the there's a lot of freedom in the basic educational curriculum in the US? If so, why would States and Counties have leeway in something so important? I mean, obviously on a very local level apportioning funds for Special Educational Needs and learning resources makes sense, but beyond that, it just makes it difficult to have a consistent education level across the country.

(If that makes sense, as a question. I'm from the UK, so have no clue how the US system works.)

Local control is fetishized here. You don't want Ivy League government bureaucrats telling our teachers how they should teach our kids, do you? And all that kind of stuff. Or from the opposite side, do you want those knuckledraggers who control Congress stopping us from making sure your kids stay the best and brightest?

But yes, because the US is a large country, large local difference in curriculum exist, both for good (you need more Agricultural classes in rural Texas than Chicago) or bad (shitty school boards.) School boards are ground zero of various cultural and political battles and where lots of political activists and candidates get their start.

One reason why even the Left is wary of national control of school curriculum is you get a situation where sex-ed is banned like it was under Bush II, school districts are forced to depend on standardized tests for funding as we've seen recently, and a tendency for reform from even Democrat's to be a code work for union busting.
 

simplayer

Member
Are you saying that there's a lot of freedom in the basic educational curriculum in the US? If so, why would States and Counties have leeway in something so important? I mean, obviously on a very local level apportioning funds for Special Educational Needs and learning resources makes sense, but beyond that, it just makes it difficult to have a consistent education level across the entire country.

(If that makes sense, as a question. I'm from the UK, so have no clue how the US system works.)

It’s a federalist system, lots of power is given to the states. Canada functions similarly and is able to have quality K-12 education.

Super small school districts and residential segregation seem like pretty big components of the problem to me. Well funded districts do as well on standardized tests as anywhere else in the world, so states forcing municipalities to share their wealth rather than upper middle class areas hoarding it all would help. As would eliminating SF home zoning, so less well off people can live in well off neighborhoods
 

Pixieking

Banned
:( That sucks. I mean, yeah, more agricultural classes in faming states/counties, cool. But at the same time, surely that means that if a family moves from rural Texas to urban Chicago, that child is going to be penalised in their new school district? Unless those extra agricultural classes are on top of the basic curriculum, not instead of something else?

Wouldn't it make sense to push for a standardised national curriculum based on data? Like, research showing that more sex education leads to lower teen pregnancies vastly outweighs the data showing that it causes pregnancies. So is it just the political difficulties of forcing this through that prevent this?
 
:( That sucks. I mean, yeah, more agricultural classes in faming states/counties, cool. But at the same time, surely that means that if a family moves from rural Texas to urban Chicago, that child is going to be penalised in their new school district? Unless those extra agricultural classes are on top of the basic curriculum, not instead of something else?

Wouldn't it make sense to push for a standardised national curriculum based on data? Like, research showing that more sex education leads to lower teen pregnancies vastly outweighs the data showing that it causes pregnancies. So is it just the political difficulties of forcing this through that prevent this?

In a sane world with sane center-right and center-left policies on education like in Europe, that makes sense. But, you forget, right now, national curriculum would be controlled by a rich billionaire who heavily funded privatization of public schools, vouchers for religious schools, etc. So, not great if you say live in Massachusetts, that has great public schools.

That's not even getting into the part where both parties are enamored with lots of policies that supposedly have data behind them, but actually are largely crap. Things such as lots of standardized tests, etc.
 

pigeon

Banned
A lot of poor idiot white people genuinely think there's a government program called "welfare" that they aren't getting. What they don't realize is their disability checks and food stamps are the only welfare that exists and they're just as much of useless leeches on the system as they accuse minorities of being.

There was a really incredible twitter thread on @tressiemcphd's twitter about how huge numbers of white people genuinely seem to think that black people get free college.

Like they just get it free because of affirmative action!
 

barber

Member
I agree, but the dumbing-down of society happened over decades (compare PBS in the 1970s to what it is today), and the building-back-up of society will require the same, if it's even possible (which it may not be; Trump is kind of a Gaius Marius with a Sullan worldview, so a Caesar seems the next logical step to me).
If you mean Marius after the stroke? maybe, before? No way, Marius actually had to earn it to get to where he got there and was quite smart. Sullan worldview was more or less correct at the time, as most borders where "calm" compared to the mess that was the inside due to decades of oligarchy destroying most of the non-slave agriculture.
But yeah, the problem of a two party system is that is hard to sell compromise in order to govern. Thus you are stuck with the shit you said even if you know the best solution is not that one (like the wall which even trump knows is bs)
 
If you mean Marius after the stroke? maybe, before? No way, Marius actually had to earn it to get to where he got there and was quite smart. Sullan worldview was more or less correct at the time, as most borders where "calm" compared to the mess that was the inside due to decades of oligarchy destroying most of the non-slave agriculture.
But yeah, the problem of a two party system is that is hard to sell compromise in order to govern. Thus you are stuck with the shit you said even if you know the best solution is not that one (like the wall which even trump knows is bs)

I more mean in the sense that he is basically a populist who is more than willing to use populist causes to obtain power, as Marius did, but he's a conservative populist who was elected to "restore" things to some imagined past, as Sulla attempted to do with his proscriptions of Marian allies, introduction of the cursus honorum, neutering of the Tribunate and People's Assembly, etc. Moreover, he is alike to both in that he is running roughshod over norms and cracking the system apart. Obviously, he has not a thimble's worth of their political talent, he's more of a political Forrest Gump, but he nevertheless is currently serving a similar role to what Marius and Sulla, collectively, served in the Republic, i.e. exploiting weaknesses in the system and thereby laying the groundwork for a fuller flowering of said techniques in a later administration.
 

barber

Member
I more mean in the sense that he is basically a populist who is more than willing to use populist causes to obtain power, as Marius did, but he's a conservative populist who was elected to "restore" things to some imagined past, as Sulla attempted to do with his proscriptions of Marian allies, introduction of the cursus honorum, neutering of the Tribunate and People's Assembly, etc. Moreover, he is alike to both in that he is running roughshod over norms and cracking the system apart. Obviously, he has not a thimble's worth of their political talent, he's more of a political Forrest Gump, but he nevertheless is currently serving a similar role to what Marius and Sulla, collectively, served in the Republic, i.e. exploiting weaknesses in the system and thereby laying the groundwork for a fuller flowering of said techniques in a later administration.
Ah yeah, the beauty of stuff that works due to tradition instead of being codified. Still it is kinda insulting for both of them to be compared to Trump. I didnt get what you meant at first.
 
I'm watching the interview with McMaster with Hewit on MSNBC.

I can't believe people said this guy was a profile of courage. He's balls deep in Trump's spin.
 
Slightly off topic but I recommend watching the documentary Icarus that just went up on Netflix. It starts with a filmmaker trying to prove how one can cheat the anti-doping tests in cycling and he quickly finds himself in the middle of the Russian state-sponsored doping program that was revealed last year. It's a great film and provides more insight into how Putin operates and the current political climate in Russia.
 
Ah yeah, the beauty of stuff that works due to tradition instead of being codified. Still it is kinda insulting for both of them to be compared to Trump. I didnt get what you meant at first.

Believe me, as a fanboy of the Roman Civilization
fuck off spaghnum, Romans speak goddamned Latin, not pussy-ass Greek
, it hurts me deeply to compare dudes I can look back on with historical respect to Trump, but considering Mike Duncan has a book coming out in the fall on the Grocchian/Marian/Sullan era that looks very much like a strong parallel to our own time (which he claims was not even intentional), it's hard not to make the leap.
 
The true greatest generation



Also: fuuuuuuuuuck yooooooooou

Overall, how liberal is Generation X? Nobody ever talks about them. If Millennials follow the same turnout path as Gen X did, then 2020 should see a huge surge among Millennial voters. They're also turning out higher than Gen X was twelve years in since they started polling them. Maybe we'll finally see that mythical demographic changes we've been hoping for.

And I'm surprised that there hasn't been a massive drop among the Silent Generation yet.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Old people are going to vote until they're fuckin dead. They are rates, though, so I'd think even 1 old person voting when only 1 old person left is going to see a high turnout rate.
 
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