Fox News all on the air discussing how threatening DACA is a Trump playing a chip to get Dems on board with immigration security (I'm assuming this is code for the wall). I can't tell if they even believe that drivel. As if Trump had a strategic bone in his body to even think like that, and even if he is this would be moronic strategy.
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher
- Thread starter Aaron Strife
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Futurevoid
Member
Not only that....
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/06/news/la-pn-gop-rejects-deportation-deferrals-20130606
GOP ladies and gentleman.
Abinash117
Member
It seems like it was that some of progressives jumped on board with anyone that is Democratic or seemingly liberal, that's anti-establishment like you said, and when they say that they should be focused on the WWC. The progressives/liberals/etc immediately assume that the Democrat is talking about Social Democrat ideals.
I don't get why many people think WWC are secret progressives or something like that.
Mark Andrew
Member
Trump pulls back threat to shut down government over border wall, for now - The Washington Post
One disaster averted, at least.
One disaster averted, at least.
Yeah, they all pretty quickly jumped on the idea that pathway to citizenship and solidified protections for Dreamers would be a fair trade off for funding the wall. I don't know if I can ever really accept the idea of wall -- not just what it means morally and symbolically, but the fact that it would be a total waste of money -- but at the same time I don't know I would want to turn down a possibility of a pathway to citizenship and DACA either.
A lot of times, I think that Fox News isn't so much reporting what Trump is doing as they are signaling to him what he can do.
Box of Kittens
Banned
I mean, to be totally real here. There's a general tendency for people to latch on to anyone who tells them what they want to hear without applying any critical thought, then afterwards when it becomes clear that the person is an embarassment, just kinda handwave it away. Hence "I never supported Tim Ryan/Tim Canova/Tulsi Gabbard" or the similar "I've always thought Louise Mensch/Claude Taylor were total frauds."
Part of the reason people think that their preferred policies are the way to appeal to the white working class is simply that people like to project their beliefs onto everybody else. A common assumption is that there's an untapped majority out there that believes all the same things I do, and if only those politicians would whole-heartedly embrace those ideas, they would get overwhelming support.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
I think he got tired of trying to pass big legislation so hes just doing what he can to energize his hardcore base. Calling the white supremacist good people and blamming the violence on peaceful protesters, pardoning arpio, now this.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Moore is uniquely nuts, although in Alabama I suppose that doesn't make much of a difference.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Trump ties his worst result in Gallup, 34/61. But, hey, he broke out of the 59-60 disapproval rut. Way to go!
Trading a tangible object for something that is bound only by the respect and rule of law (which is routinely violated by ICE and Trump) is about the worst trade you could possibly make.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Box of Kittens
Banned
Also let's remember that the entire reason Obama went the Executive Order route on DACA is because the legislative branch has completely broken down. If (a) they believe it's important to protect Dreamers and (b) legislation is the proper vehicle to do so, it's pretty clear where the blame lies.
If immigration reform is not a tangible way to protect undocumented immigrants, then what is?
AntraxSuicide
Banned
What we really need is a mechanism to force votes. I loathe the idea that leadership can kill bills without actually voting no on the. It's pocket veto nonsense. If they don't want DACA, they should all have to vote no on it.
Aaron Strife
Banned
He's been stuck at 34-35 for so long that if he actually hits 33 within the next couple of days I'll probably start dancing.
In theory the discharge petition should allow for this, but because you need 218 votes that requires members to go against their party.
I don't know if there's a way you could allow the minority party to force votes without turning things into a madhouse and the minority deliberately gumming up the works. Imagine a Pelosi-led Congress that had to vote on ACA repeal every week.
Maybe each member of Congress can force one floor vote per term? I don't know.
benicillin
Banned
If Democrats fund the wall, even for some bi-partisan immigration legislation, there's no way we'd win 2020.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Yeah, wall is a hard, hard no.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Such a mechanism technically exists in the form of the discharge petition. However, people tend to be very cautious about using them for fear of upsetting the leadership and possibly facing reprisals (loss of committee seats, etc.)
BlastProcessing
Member
There's definitely no way they would deserve to win.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
I think a push to actually use the petition more frequently would help.
And yeah, I get the 218 votes thing, but that's largely my issue. If you put a "Pathway to Citizenship" bill up for a vote, I bet it would cross 218. There are enough vulnerable, anonymous Republicans who would vote yes along with Dems. But such a bill would never hit the floor.
Sirpopopop
Member
That Pathway to Citizenship bill would need full immediate amnesty.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
For sure.
Box of Kittens
Banned
https://twitter.com/IronStache/status/903393928900202496
This was all I could find. The qualifier makes me thing that it's something like the preference expressed after the respondent has heard a pitch for Iron Stache and not reflective of voter preferences in general.
Thanks. Let's hope IronStache has it in him.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I don't care what the GOP ties to anything--democrats need to stand firm and make the republicans deal with the consequences of their actions.
"We'll fix this if you vote for us in 2018" should be the constant rallying cry.
"We'll fix this if you vote for us in 2018" should be the constant rallying cry.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Yeah, informed ballot tests are never useful for head-to-head polling.
Still, I'd like to see IronStache succeed. Revenge for Tom Foley being ousted in 1994.
Amibguous Cad
Member
Make the country deal with the consequences of the Republican's actions, you mean.
Why not? I'll trade a symbolic loss for a substantive victory any day of the week.
CrimzonSamurai
Member
Blech no way. No dem should vote for a wall under any circumstances. It's 100% a terrible waste of money with absolutely nothing in return.
Are a lot of the people shouting down the wall really thinking about the hypothetical? I mean the wall sucks, is useless, and completely driven by xenophobia.
But if it allows a broad immigration deal with real reform to pass with a path to citizenship, can/should democrats really say no to that? That's what I recall the hypothetical posed on PSA to be anyway.
But if it allows a broad immigration deal with real reform to pass with a path to citizenship, can/should democrats really say no to that? That's what I recall the hypothetical posed on PSA to be anyway.
BlastProcessing
Member
It's not a symbolic loss. Something like immigration policy can be changed and changed back by subsequent Congresses. A wall will be around for decades no matter what. An exorbitantly expensive symbol of hate.
The Republicans got elected. It is their responsibility to govern, not the Democrat's responsibility to provide votes for bills they don't support because they are tied to must-pass legislation.
If the Republican Speaker needs Democratic votes to keep the government open then he's passing a coalition bill. It's going to have coalition priorities in it, not Republican ones.
Thankfully this is the kind of thing Pelosi excels at. Given her leadership and Ryan's inability to control his caucus, nothing is going to pass that Dems can't live with. Maybe we'll finally lose the medical device tax.
Building the wall is a substantive loss as well as a symbolic one.
Since Ryan already just said he doesn't want Dreamers to be in danger he should just put up a bill that does that. There is no reason for Democrats to believe they need to fund the wall to get that done.
The question to ask is, who is going to vote for comprehensive immigration reform only because it funds the wall, and wouldn't otherwise?
the President?
THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE WORKED WITH OBAMA. Your fault. Obama said numerous times that he would have preferred legislation. The GOP was too busy trying to repeal the ACA and in some corners just double down on complete inaction and racist birther bullshitPaul Ryan pushing Trump not to act on DACA...
This is so fucking infuriating.
Immigration reform will be a good thing but Trump will essentially take the credit for something Obama could have done YEARS ago.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
This, and I'll add that I'm not a fan of democrats voting for anything that is clearly driven by racism like the wall is.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Yeah, I'm considering it. But I think it's important to distinguish between the mocking image of the wall and what it could be. Yes, it's not going to work as intended, but it would still go up over a large portion of the border. Some places will fight it, but others won't. That's a real thing, not just symbolic.
Again, if the bill on the table is "Fund the Wall or We'll Deport Kids" then I'd vote for it, but I don't intend to walk into that hostage situation or smile at it when presented.
Futurevoid
Member
I doubt these people who are DACA recipients or other immigrants who find themselves caught in the horrible position of possibly being deported and ripped away from their families give even the slightest fuck who gets credit for immigration reform if it happens.
You shouldn't vote for that bill. The United States government does not negotiate with terrorists.
BlastProcessing
Member
He has proven himself to be completely irrelevant in the legislative process.
Also, something else to add to the "The President of the United States has Dementia" pile
@AaronBlake
Trump's quote on DACA timing is confused
Of course not but this could have been settled years ago. I'm sure immigrants would have rather had peace of mind many years ago when Republicans could have done the same fucking thing but denying Obama another legislative win was more important. Dems will vote for this even with Trump. The GOP couldn't find the will to do it with Obama. That's what pisses me off.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
hydragonwarrior
Member
Are dems losing the argument that Antifa is a good movement? Republicans took control of the media narrative almost immediately and are screaming it across every rooftop in America that they are evil and terrorists.
The backlash is absolutely incredible and they're focusing more on Antifa being bad for property destruction and supposed beatings then Nazi's who want to commit genocide (and have also performed the same). They are unfortunately becoming much louder.
Should the movement rebrand, rename or re-organize? What should be talked about is how white supremacy is still around in America and how to combat that, not about the bad deeds of a select few idiots in Antifa.
The backlash is absolutely incredible and they're focusing more on Antifa being bad for property destruction and supposed beatings then Nazi's who want to commit genocide (and have also performed the same). They are unfortunately becoming much louder.
Should the movement rebrand, rename or re-organize? What should be talked about is how white supremacy is still around in America and how to combat that, not about the bad deeds of a select few idiots in Antifa.
He has proven himself to be completely irrelevant in the legislative process.
Also, something else to add to the "The President of the United States has Dementia" pile
@AaronBlake
Trump's quote on DACA timing is confused
How can he love them and want to throw their lives into chaos?
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
He has proven himself to be completely irrelevant in the legislative process.
Also, something else to add to the "The President of the United States has Dementia" pile
@AaronBlake
Trump's quote on DACA timing is confused
His actions speak otherwise.
So we let the hostages be deported? I mean, I agree with this argument - it's by far the strongest argument against any kind of deal with the Republicans.
Is it because it's the right thing to do (i.e. caving encourages more hostage taking) or because it will lead to electoral gain in 2018? Or both?
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