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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
It's gonna work on a ton of people, way more than it should.

I think it worked on Clinton because a ton of people who were apathetic about her got gotten to. A lot of those people have, over the last six to eight years, been actively enthusiastic about Warren. Flipping them is fighting a lot more inertia
 
I mean, kind of? Except that Western leftists in general have accepted the liberal values of freedom of speech, assembly, religion, self-determination, etc., and lack of discrimination in state action, and liberals in general have more hesitatingly embraced the leftist values of opposing poverty and penury and ensuring all citizens a certain quality of life.

Socialism and liberalism are just inextricably intertwined today. Everybody knows this! People would communicate better if they understood the Venn diagram more. Or if Paradox would finally make Victoria III, that would probably help too.

Vicky games don't make anything easier to understand.
 

pigeon

Banned
Rather than just trying harder to win primaries, I think leftist orgs like chapters of the DSA should embed themselves within Democrat-led movements to earn the trust of centrist or ideologically-indifferent Democrats who dominate almost every local Democratic Party.

I 100% agree with this. This is exactly what strong leftist organizations should be trying to do. The other thing I would recommend them doing is actually just joining the local Democratic Party and taking over the local levers of power, which is happening in some places, but I think could happen more.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I think it worked on Clinton because a ton of people who were apathetic about her got gotten to. A lot of those people have, over the last six to eight years, been actively enthusiastic about Warren. Flipping them is fighting a lot more inertia

When her and Bernie are going at each other it'll work. Look what happened with the critiques of Harris before and after she endorsed Bernie's bill. They just went away after the endorsement, for the most part.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I 100% agree with this. This is exactly what strong leftist organizations should be trying to do. The other thing I would recommend them doing is actually just joining the local Democratic Party and taking over the local levers of power, which is happening in some places, but I think could happen more.
I'm full of respect for the prison abolition movement which I think does a great job of strategically targeting effort at short, medium and long term changes at every level of social organization. I think the DSA has the potential to exert pressure in a similar manner
 
I still think this will be a Very Online thing for the foreseeable future. I don't think the term liberal is every going to be disassociated with leftism in American politics.

Though no one really says liberal because it's a dirty word, they'd describe themselves as progressive, and then things get murky. Ultimately, I don't think you'll ever see "leftist" become a thing in American politics because a word like progressive will just get coopted.
I suppose leftist and socialist are a bit different here, since I think leftist gets used online as a pan-left term for social democrats, socialists, anarchists, etc. which are distinctions that probably won't ever exist in the wider public. But I don't think it's impossible that we'll see socialist become a much more mainstream political term as millennials become a more powerful voting bloc.

The joke about 'alt-left' before Trump used it that I'd hear was that centrists needed something to red-bait with since socialist wasn't doing the job anymore. I think that'll become more true, especially if more Democrats being running with the socialist label.

Love this magazine and think this is a pretty good rundown, particularly in the different conceptions of what type activism is meaningful (like phonebanking versus organizing a strike for stronger rent regulations) and what politics should look like. This passage is especially important:



This part is equally important:



But like Pigeon said, the article doesn't get into the weeds about how this unity should be manifest. The advice prescribed doesn't go much beyond "Keep repeating the 2016 primary until Democratic party leaders cede institutional power to the left." This isn't new or particularly helpful commentary. We can all agree that when Trump and the GOP dominate each branch of our federal government and almost every state administration, some kind of broader ideological unity is necessary. Rather than just trying harder to win primaries, I think leftist orgs like chapters of the DSA should embed themselves within Democrat-led movements to earn the trust of centrist or ideologically-indifferent Democrats who dominate almost every local Democratic Party.
For what it's worth I replied to the author with the same skepticism and his response was basically that he thinks threatening abstentionism is a much riskier strategy than primarying leadership, specifically citing what he considers the success of Zephyr Teachout's 2014 challenge of Cuomo as a failed primary that still succeeded in moving its target office to the left of where it would be without the primary, and that instilling the fear of losing a primary is the best way to keep politicians in line.

I'm not sure how much I agree with it, but that's his response.
 
I suppose leftist and socialist are a bit different here, since I think leftist gets used online as a pan-left term for social democrats, socialists, anarchists, etc. which are distinctions that probably won't ever exist in the wider public. But I don't think it's impossible that we'll see socialist become a much more mainstream political term as millennials become a more powerful voting bloc.

The joke about 'alt-left' before Trump used it that I'd hear was that centrists needed something to red-bait with since socialist wasn't doing the job anymore. I think that'll become more true, especially if more Democrats being running with the socialist label.

Potentially, I just don't ever seen liberal meaning anything other than a disparaging word from the right about those who they see as far-left. I don't think it'll ever be understood to mean centrist.
 

pigeon

Banned
Potentially, I just don't ever seen liberal meaning anything other than a disparaging word from the right about those who they see as far-left. I don't think it'll ever be understood to mean centrist.

It's a disparaging word from both sides.

My Twitter had a couple of mentions today of the ACLU protestors chanting "liberalism is white supremacy" and how bonkers that seemed to people familiar with more conventional definitions of liberalism.

I think leftists would benefit from being more clear about the things they don't like about the current liberal paradigm. We actually do know what socialism without liberalism looks like -- just ask kirblar! But we generally assume that socialism includes most of what liberalism won over the last two and a half centuries, having seen the alternative already.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
But what is the publication of choice for the neoliberal shills?

Slate or Bloomberg maybe? Or just anything "mainstream media".

Economist always struck me as moderate libertarian when I was reading it a lot during the housing crash, but maybe it's more neoliberal. I guess to some extent neoliberals are a lot like moderate libertarians.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
I get all my information from gifs of late night tv and memes on neogaf. Not sure where that puts me on the broader left spectrum.
 

pigeon

Banned
I get all my information from gifs of late night tv and memes on neogaf. Not sure where that puts me on the broader left spectrum.

Depends on the tab.

OT: left
OT Community: center-left
Gaming: center-right
Gaming Community: not a real tab
 
You know, I’m still not that upset by the ad, but that certainly is a valid point.

I think Democrats’ loyalist base is nicer on the whole than Republicans, sometimes to our detriment. Think of all the people asking how we reach out to Obama-Trump voters, compared to the complete fucking warpath demanded by Republicans after Obama’s election. This isn’t even something I’d necessarily change because I like feeling morally just, but it does have its problems.
 

Ogodei

Member
I suppose leftist and socialist are a bit different here, since I think leftist gets used online as a pan-left term for social democrats, socialists, anarchists, etc. which are distinctions that probably won't ever exist in the wider public. But I don't think it's impossible that we'll see socialist become a much more mainstream political term as millennials become a more powerful voting bloc.

The joke about 'alt-left' before Trump used it that I'd hear was that centrists needed something to red-bait with since socialist wasn't doing the job anymore. I think that'll become more true, especially if more Democrats being running with the socialist label.

For what it's worth I replied to the author with the same skepticism and his response was basically that he thinks threatening abstentionism is a much riskier strategy than primarying leadership, specifically citing what he considers the success of Zephyr Teachout's 2014 challenge of Cuomo as a failed primary that still succeeded in moving its target office to the left of where it would be without the primary, and that instilling the fear of losing a primary is the best way to keep politicians in line.

I'm not sure how much I agree with it, but that's his response.

Threatening abstentionism is the worst thing leftists could do. The reason why young people issues make no headway is because young people don't vote. If leftists become a potential non-voter bloc (or moreso than they are already anyway), that's when you really get the Dems becoming Republican Lite because moderates are the left-most voters you can find.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Okay, let's try this once more.

*clears throat*

What do y'all think of Jordan Klepper's new show?
 

sphagnum

Banned
Threatening abstentionism is the worst thing leftists could do. The reason why young people issues make no headway is because young people don't vote. If leftists become a potential non-voter bloc (or moreso than they are already anyway), that's when you really get the Dems becoming Republican Lite because moderates are the left-most voters you can find.

Ah but in the Soviet electoral system, threatening to abstain was one of the ways citizens were able to get grievances addressed!

It obviously works the exact same way here.
 
Scientifically, the egg came before the chicken.
Young people get nothing because they don't do anything to affect the mechanisms that get things.
Also they are dumb.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
There's a chicken and egg element to it, sure, but i think stuff like the free public college drive, or student loan relief, would get more play if it actually worked at driving youth turnout.

Sanders and Corbyn prove that these policies do substantially drive up youth turnout. There's just still a lot of room for improvement.
 

Teggy

Member
DLU7kmLVYAETgxr
.
 
They're not socialist over all but there are more socialists than in prior generations.
There are more people who say they are socialist in surveys and wear Che Guevara t-shirts and sit in drum circles, while tweeting photos of their smashed avocado to their snapstagrambook while eating some sort of organic chia kale seedmix from Whole Foods via Alexa.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
There are more people who say they are socialist in surveys and wear Che Guevara t-shirts and sit in drum circles, while tweeting photos of their smashed avocado to their snapstagrambook while eating some sort of organic chia kale seedmix from Whole Foods via Alexa.

yes u aren't a real socialist unless u abandon all ur earthly possessions and live in a swamp
 

pigeon

Banned
There are more people who say they are socialist in surveys and wear Che Guevara t-shirts and sit in drum circles, while tweeting photos of their smashed avocado to their snapstagrambook while eating some sort of organic chia kale seedmix from Whole Foods via Alexa.

Yes, the middle class is always the class with the largest opportunity to develop consciousness. That's why they invented democracy too. Duh?
 
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