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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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I'm all for open borders if you can get a decent chunk of the world on board at once, but it's a concept with a pretty huge free rider problem if only 1 or a handful of countries implement it, especially if those countries are more affluent.
 

pigeon

Banned
I'm all for open borders if you can get a decent chunk of the world on board at once, but it's a concept with a pretty huge free rider problem if only 1 or a handful of countries implement it, especially if those countries are more affluent.

The whole point of open borders is that immigrants pay for themselves and there's no economic justification to keep them out.
 

pigeon

Banned
pigeon -- I was thinking about your statement the other day that leftists who advocate for closing borders are really just ethno-nationalists. I basically agree with that statement. But I'm also having trouble seeing how leftist thought isn't going to reduce to ethno-nationalism when it comes in contact with the real world. (For example, the US had open borders until racist quotas were imposed during the Progressive Era.)

How fan you convince ordinary people that leftist thought is incompatible with nativism? Even today a common argument is that open borders are incompatible with welfare.

My strategy so far has been to yell about how they're Nazis. This has met with mixed success, so maybe some workshopping would be useful.

In theory it should be pretty straightforward to observe that there is no economic justification for closing borders and that the moral imperative we have to feed and clothe all people extends just as much to those outside America as it does within, meaning that we have no reason not to let them enter America and take part in our social programs. For America specifically, obviously, we have the additional codicil that America has no founding nation and is explicitly propositional, so banning immigrants goes against long-held American values. The only reason people want to be nativist is that they're racist.

Unfortunately racism is pretty popular. That's why ethnonationalism is actually the most successful brand of socialism! I wish I could tell you how to convince people not to be racist, but sadly, I'm still working on it.
 

kirblar

Member
I'm all for open borders if you can get a decent chunk of the world on board at once, but it's a concept with a pretty huge free rider problem if only 1 or a handful of countries implement it, especially if those countries are more affluent.
We have this already w/ red states and we're doing ok. (unless you live in one)
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Steven Dennis‏Verified account @StevenTDennis

Awk tonight: Cochran said "Aye" to Rand Paul amendment cutting $43B from approps budget before aide corrected him. Cochran then voted no.

2nd time in two days.
 

Holmes

Member
Brandon Presley running for Senate can be interesting. Especially if there's a divisive Republican primary, or McDaniels wins the primary.
 

wutwutwut

Member
I'm all for open borders if you can get a decent chunk of the world on board at once, but it's a concept with a pretty huge free rider problem if only 1 or a handful of countries implement it, especially if those countries are more affluent.
This is really not true. There is overwhelming evidence that immigrants are always a net benefit to society, regardless of skill level. (There's also the moral argument for open borders.)

(To be clear, open borders does not mean that criminals can just walk in to your country.)
 
and that the moral imperative we have to feed and clothe all people extends just as much to those outside America as it does within

To this point, if talking to an isolationist leftist, you ask them, "is there any difference between a human being in the Middle East (or wherever) and a human being in the US?"

If they answer no, then the policy of open borders is obvious.
 
People wanted Kelly to be a hero because that's what we need, but everything he's done since day 1 - presiding over the horrible shit that went down at DHS, approving Trump's muslim ban - already proved he was just another Trumpist stooge. Mattis and maybe McMaster are the only people I have any faith in in this administration.

Gotta love rooting for a de facto junta.

I really hope those delusional fucking idiots on TV who've been saying for so long that Kelly is a true patriot keeping Trump in check will shut up now.

Anyone who willingly serves Trump at this point is an absolute stooge and an idiot. Kelly is no different from Spicer or Priebus or Pence.
 
I miss Obama.
Basically said this in the other thread but I miss older presidents just because you could go some time without thinking about them

I believe I went the entirety of the years 2013/2014 thinking about politics or anything related to it like 4 times

Sort of the same with Bush. Don’t miss him personally but I miss not being able to think about him or what was going on for extended periods of time
 

AntoneM

Member
Can PoliGAF agree that, at its most base level, a government is an entity which has a monopoly of violence within a defined space? Violence in this case includes but is not limited to, imprisonment, policing, and coercion in order to achieve its goals and follow its rules.
 
Anyone have access to that quick comic that mocks how political cartoons/comics always have one guy acting like a perfect angel while the one voicing a view that the artist doesn't agree with turns into a complete lunatic?
 

pigeon

Banned
My ex girlfriend wrote an interesting paper on the de facto bandit governments in Central Africa when she was doing IR. In practice, the bandits were the status quo defenders because the militias would usually kill people and the bandits would only rob them.
 
No no I mean there's one that's mocking it haha. With like stick figures or some shit. People post it in OT every once in a while.
r2sQ1uu.gif
 

mlclmtckr

Banned
Some ideas within socialism about borders and nations-

Socialism In One Country

Marxist thought generally held that socialism inside one country would be impossible to sustain. As Engels said in Principles of Communism,

"Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?


No. By creating the world market, big industry has already brought all the peoples of the Earth, and especially the civilized peoples, into such close relation with one another that none is independent of what happens to the others. Further, it has co-ordinated the social development of the civilized countries to such an extent that, in all of them, bourgeoisie and proletariat have become the decisive classes, and the struggle between them the great struggle of the day. It follows that the communist revolution will not merely be a national phenomenon but must take place simultaneously in all civilized countries—that is to say, at least in England, America, France, and Germany. It will develop in each of these countries more or less rapidly, according as one country or the other has a more developed industry, greater wealth, a more significant mass of productive forces. Hence, it will go slowest and will meet most obstacles in Germany, most rapidly and with the fewest difficulties in England. It will have a powerful impact on the other countries of the world, and will radically alter the course of development which they have followed up to now, while greatly stepping up its pace. It is a universal revolution and will, accordingly, have a universal range."

Lenin, though, was less sure -

"Uneven economic and political development is an absolute law of capitalism. Hence, the victory of socialism is possible first in several or even in one capitalist country alone. After expropriating the capitalists and organising their own socialist production, the victorious proletariat of that country will arise against the rest of the world...."

And Stalin made SIOC official policy.

Socialism in One Country (Russian: Социализм в одной стране Sotsializm v odnoi strane) was a theory put forth by Nikolai Bukharin and implemented by Joseph Stalin in 1924, and finally adopted by the Soviet Union as state policy.[1] The theory held that given the defeat of all the communist revolutions in Europe in 1917–1921 except Russia's, the Soviet Union should begin to strengthen itself internally. That turn toward national communism was a shift from the previously held position by Classical Marxism that socialism must be established globally (world communism). However, the proponents of the theory contend that it contradicts neither world revolution nor world communism.The theory was in opposition to Leon Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution.

Internationalism

Proletarian internationalism, sometimes referred to as international socialism, is the perception of all communist revolutions as being part of a single global class struggle rather than separate localized events.[1][2] It is based on the theory that capitalism is an international system, and therefore the working classes of all nations must act in concert if they are to replace it with communism.[3] Proponents of proletarian internationalism often argued that the objectives of a given revolution should be global rather than local in scope; for example, triggering or perpetuating revolutions elsewhere.[1]

The trade unionists who formed the International Workingmen's Association (IWA), sometimes called the First International, recognised that the working class was an international class which had to link its struggle on an international scale. By joining together across national borders, the workers would gain greater bargaining power and political influence.

Founded in 1864, the IWA was the first mass movement with a specifically international focus. At its peak, the IWA had 5 million members, according to police reports from the various countries in which it had a significant presence.[9] Repression in Europe and internal divisions between the anarchist and Marxist currents led eventually to its dissolution in 1876. Shortly thereafter, the Marxist and revolutionary socialist tendencies continued the internationalist strategy of the IWA through the successor organisation of the Second International, though without the inclusion of the anarchist and anarcho-syndicalist movements.

Maoist Third Worldism

Maoism (Third Worldism) is defined, theoretically, by a variety of political principles which emphasize the enormous economic, social and political divisions which exist currently between the "overdeveloped" First World and the "underdeveloped" Third World. This is expressed through the lens of Maoist theory and practice, but brought into a new international understanding of imperialism and class in the context of the world which has been divided into two distinct camps: the exploited countries (the Third World) and their exploiters (the First World).

According to the Revolutionary Anti-Imperialist Movement (RAIM), on the question of the principal theoretical observations of Maoism (Third Worldism) they state:

"Confronted by a complacent working class, served by an opportunist left, and alienated from the proletariat through the reception of surplus value drained from the Third World, we must understand the ideological and strategic implications of struggle from within the parasitic core. It benefits neither the left in the oppressor or the oppressed nations to pretend that the condition of the working class around the world is the same... To be a Third Worldist, in our view, is to be a principled internationalist."[1]

"Taking the entire globe, if North America and Western Europe can be called 'the cities of the world', then Asia, Africa and Latin America constitute 'the rural areas of the world'. Since World War II, the proletarian revolutionary movement has for various reasons been temporarily held back in the North American and West European capitalist countries, while the people’s revolutionary movement in Asia, Africa and Latin America has been growing vigorously. In a sense, the contemporary world revolution also presents a picture of the encirclement of cities by the rural areas. In the final analysis, the whole cause of world revolution hinges on the revolutionary struggles of the Asian, African and Latin American peoples who make up the overwhelming majority of the world’s population. The socialist countries should regard it as their internationalist duty to support the people’s revolutionary struggles in Asia, Africa and Latin America."[3]

Labor aristocracy

In Marxist theory, those workers (proletarians) in developed countries who benefit from the superprofits extracted from the impoverished workers of developing countries form an "aristocracy of labor." The phrase was popularized by Karl Kautsky in 1901 and theorized by Vladimir Lenin in his treatise on Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism. According to Lenin, companies in the developed world exploit workers in the developing world where wages are much lower. The increased profits enable these companies to pay higher wages to their employees "at home" (that is, in the developed world), thus creating a working class satisfied with their standard of living and not inclined to proletarian revolution. It is thus a form of exporting poverty, creating an "exclave" of lower social class. Lenin contended that imperialism had prevented increasing class polarization in the developed world, and argued that a workers' revolution could only begin in one of the developing countries, such as Imperial Russia[citation needed].

The concept of a labor aristocracy is controversial between Marxists. While the theory is formally shared by most currents that identify positively with Lenin, including the Communist International, few organizations place the theory at the center of their work. The term is most widely used in the United States, where it was popularized in the decade prior to the First World War by Eugene Debs's Socialist Party of America, and the Industrial Workers of the World (see below). In Britain those who hold to this theory include the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist) and the Revolutionary Communist Group. Many Trotskyists, including Leon Trotsky himself, and the early congresses of the Fourth International, have accepted the theory of the labor aristocracy; others, including Ernest Mandel and Tony Cliff, considered the theory to have mistaken arguments or "Third Worldist" implications. US revolutionary socialist Charlie Post has developed a contemporary critique of the theory.[1]
 
So, I wasn't sure where to turn with this, but I figured I'd ask here since ideologies align and all that. I was out today for my Wife's birthday, and while she was busy shopping I was checking the news. I found this story in my facebook feed about a coffee shop shutting down after the mother's daughter (as manager) made some anti-police statements that cost them business.

In the comments were people mentioning something about "Turtleboy Sports Strikes again!" I went digging and discovered it's a conservative online rag that promotes the 'real news' for the Massachusetts area (Basically news with a conservative twist on it.) That in and of itself is unremarkable. What has me more concerned is pieces like this that argue that Turtleboy Sports is actively engaging in mob harassment, which based on the coffee story, was likely fanned by the spin Turtleboys had put on it.

I know there's not really a lot to be done about online harassment, I know there's plenty of other online harassment groups, campaigns, etc that go untouched. But I guess this rag hits close to home, since I live in MA and feel like it's libel to attack and incite people to harass those around me. I'd like to believe I can do something against it since this is more local and targeted to my area than others. So I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts for what I can do to perhaps combat this disturbing group.

I've already reported it to Facebook (haha) and plan to do so for their Twitter account (haha) but I know neither will actually get anything done. I was thinking my best bet would be to perhaps dig up as much online evidence as possible and try to tip off some newspaper (NY Times, Boston Globe, more local outlets, etc.) in hopes that maybe they'd do a proper story and shed some light on this? If anyone has any better ideas I'm open. I just feel frustrated with the way things are in this country and I'd like, for once, to be able to do something to stop awful people from doing awful things.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The labor aristocracy is a major barrier to global socialist movement. Improvement of labor conditions overseas will come at a material cost to working class people in nations like the US because of how the US as a whole benefits from exploitation. Its just going to be hard to mobilize people for that, generally people get enthusiastic about socialism because they believe it will lead to an improvement in their conditions.

(The concept of the labor aristocracy also reveals how messy definitions around classes can become)
 

Ogodei

Member
The labor aristocracy is a major barrier to global socialist movement. Improvement of labor conditions overseas will come at a material cost to working class people in nations like the US because of how the US as a whole benefits from exploitation. Its just going to be hard to mobilize people for that, generally people get enthusiastic about socialism because they believe it will lead to an improvement in their conditions.

The problem with global egalitarianism is it *will* mean absolute declines in living standards for developed world citizens. The resource footprint of the average NATO/SK/Japan/ANZ citizen is too large and the world would not be able to sustain all 7 billion of us living that way with current technology.

Global inequality isn't just about the superrich hording wealth, it's about the fact that wealthy country citizens use resources and space at a rate that is unsustainable if applied to all people everywhere, and so true egalitarianism would mean that Middle America would have to give up some (or even a lot) of what they have to end deprivation in places like Africa or India.

Now once global birth-rates converge, then you might have something.
 

DTC

Member
Can someone explain why justice democrats aren't endorsing Kevin De Leon against Feinstein or at the very least Beto O Rourke?

Those would be better endorsements than Paula Jean against Joe Manchin (which would lead to an almost assured loss in 2018).
 

mlclmtckr

Banned
Bernie's not speaking at the Women's Convention after all

“I want to apologize to the organizers of the Women’s Convention for not being able to attend your conference next Friday in Detroit. Given the emergency situation in Puerto Rico, I will be traveling there to visit with San Juan Mayor Carmen Yulín Cruz and other officials to determine the best way forward to deal with the devastation the island is experiencing. The U.S. Congress cannot turn its back on the millions of people in Puerto Rico who, four weeks after the hurricane, are still without electricity, food and running water.

“Congratulations to the board of the Women's March – Tamika Mallory, Bob Bland, Linda Sarsour, Carmen Perez, Janaye Ingram, Breanne Butler – along with thousands of other women leaders for their historic work in putting together the march in January and all that you have done since. My best wishes for a very successful conference.”
 
Media seems to think Kelly gave Trump a “big win” today with a speech that will chill you to your very core.

I didn’t get a chance to see it. I’m guessing that’s not the case?
 
Media seems to think Kelly gave Trump a “big win” today with a speech that will chill you to your very core.

I didn’t get a chance to see it. I’m guessing that’s not the case?

I thought it was just Chris Clizza or slice of pizza or however you spell his last name.

And even he thought there were problems.
 
This is really not true. There is overwhelming evidence that immigrants are always a net benefit to society, regardless of skill level. (There's also the moral argument for open borders.)

(To be clear, open borders does not mean that criminals can just walk in to your country.)

Probably, but facts don't really matter when it comes to feelings. Just look at of all the right-wing political groups that either gained power or are in power. Much of their rise has something to do with immigration and I think a lot of the support has large backing by lower class groups. Even it being true that the native populace isn't really getting displaced or something like that people still fear immigration even if the fear is not grounded in reality. It is like some left-wing movements are afraid to tackle the problem of xenophobia, nationalism, racism, and enthocentrism head on and instead rather maneuver around the topics.
 

Emarv

Member
Isn't the Niger situation exactly what everyone fretted over happening with this administration earlier in the year? That eventually we'd have an international incident where we'd need truthful answers and we wouldn't know what to believe from the administration. I guess we should be thankful that there are still some guard rails up trying to find some real answers.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Maoism-Third Worldism is one of those things where internally it makes a lot of sense but it always produces the most embarassing supporters.
 
Spitballing but it could be a Boko Haram attack targeting them specifically or friendly fire from local forces. Still, it took 2 days to find one of them so something is really suspicious.
It's been confirmed that an ISIS offshoot "Islamic State in Sahel" carried out the attack. The confusion is arising because the army used a private contractor for evacuation, but the remains of those four soldiers were supposedly evacuated by the French forces.
CNN reached out to Berry Aviation to ask whether their aircraft conducted evacuations of the wounded or deceased, Berry Aviation President and COO Stan Finch declined to comment on any details but said that information "belongs to the customer."
US officials told CNN Thursday that French military Super Puma helicopters evacuated the wounded Americans along with those killed in action.
French military attack aircraft also flew to the area in an attempt to support US personnel on the ground but multiple officials told CNN that the government of Niger does not currently permit airstrikes on its territory.
So what was Berry Aviation doing when they needed evacuation, but instead had to rely on the French?
 

Trump was duped by fake right wing "news" tip/Miller and insisted on an operation go ahead despite the generals telling him otherwise. He got men killed, destroyed relations with the government of Niger and once again has blood on his hands because "gut feeling". Count on it.
 

Slacker

Member
Maddow apparently went full conspiracy theory on the Niger thing tonight. If there's something there I hope it's exposed, but I really don't want the left to cede the high-ground on not politicizing tragedies like this.
 
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