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PoliGAF 2nd Pres. Debate 2008 Thread (DOW dropping, Biden is off to Home Depot)

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S

Stridone

Banned
Crayon Shinchan said:
Nestled deep in the debate of the abortion issue... is the core point. One that so many fail to consider and ask themselves when considering their position on this issue.

And it's simply; What makes us human?
Click to expand...

Indeed. I would argue that a clump of cells with no memories, feelings or thoughts is about as valuable as a rock.
 
S

Slurpy

*drowns in jizz*
chimpychi said:
Me too. I work with a girl who all this time was for Obama. Now she's recently found out she's pregnant and for some reason now feels she can't vote for him because he's "Pro-Abortion"...ugh..
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So why didn't she care that he was 'pro-abortion' before she was pregnant? She just didn't give a shit about any other 'babies being killed', except her own? Pretty fucking selfish.

Just following the train of logic here.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Stoney Mason said:
I'd bet dollars to donuts if you polled atheists in this country they are majority pro-choice. .
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I'm saying it doesn't matter. If you're pro-choice, you probably say things like a woman should be able to choose what happens to her body, or that the difficult choice of abortion could save the woman's life, or keep a child from growing up in an awful environment.

But even though Christians might be anti-abortion because they believe you are taking an innocent life, that's not really the point.

You neither have to be a Christian to value the life of an unborn child, nor an athiest to respect a woman's choice.

It's a non-religious issue in my eyes.
 
S

Stridone

Banned
Speevy said:
I'm saying it doesn't matter. If you're pro-choice, you probably say things like a woman should be able to choose what happens to her body, or that the difficult choice of abortion could save the woman's life, or keep a child from growing up in an awful environment.

But even though Christians might be anti-abortion because they believe you are taking an innocent life, that's not really the point.

You neither have to be a Christian to value the life of an unborn child, nor an athiest to respect a woman's choice.

It's a non-religious issue in my eyes.
Click to expand...

Atheists generally don't believe in the existence of a soul, so there goes the "value" argument.
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
ryutaro's mama said:
It seems that the Reps are already laying the foundation for cries of voter fraud.

So even if they lose, they'll sleep better knowing Obama "cheated" to win and didn't actually win.
Click to expand...


Awesome. Their own personal Gore/Bush. Justice served.
 
S

Stoney Mason

Banned
Speevy said:
I'm saying it doesn't matter. If you're pro-choice, you probably say things like a woman should be able to choose what happens to her body, or that the difficult choice of abortion could save the woman's life, or keep a child from growing up in an awful environment.

But even though Christians might be anti-abortion because they believe you are taking an innocent life, that's not really the point.

You neither have to be a Christian to value the life of an unborn child, nor an athiest to respect a woman's choice.

It's a non-religious issue in my eyes.
Click to expand...


I see where you are going and partially agree but I think the driving factors behind this debate are also in reality religious based ones. Of course you can also argue that religion is just more likely at producing this sort of mindset and conflict.
 
R

ryutaro's mama

Member
Speevy said:
I'm saying it doesn't matter. If you're pro-choice, you probably say things like a woman should be able to choose what happens to her body, or that the difficult choice of abortion could save the woman's life, or keep a child from growing up in an awful environment.

But even though Christians might be anti-abortion because they believe you are taking an innocent life, that's not really the point.

You neither have to be a Christian to value the life of an unborn child, nor an athiest to respect a woman's choice.

It's a non-religious issue in my eyes.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it is driven by religion for the most part.

Look, people that are against abortion prolly WON'T HAVE AN ABORTION.

People that hate guns won't buy one.

Neither should make a decision for everyone.

I mean, FFS, if Christianity was a mandate by law to be the official religion in America for EVERYONE, would that be ok too?
 
S

Stridone

Banned
ryutaro's mama said:
Unfortunately, it is driven by religion for the most part.

Look, people that are against abortion prolly WON'T HAVE AN ABORTION.

People that hate guns won't buy one.

Neither should make a decision for everyone.
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Wrong comparison, guns being legal poses a risk for everyone.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
Precisely because it concerns a woman's rights, I've always thought that issues such as this should ONLY be voted on by women. Otherwise, you overly involve religion unnecessarily. And in the case that it could be only voted by women, pro-choice would rule the day with virtually zero serious opposition. And why do men get to vote on equal pay for equal work when it concerns a woman's rights? Why do straight people get to vote on gay issues when it doesn't really concern them? It's maddening in a way.
 
S

Stridone

Banned
Speevy said:
Relationships, organization, kinship, etc.
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Indeed, but that clump of cells can't even think or feel, let alone have relations. If you're purely talking about bloodrelations, well, I don't see much value in that. I personally don't care about family I don't know more than I care about people on the other side of the world I don't know.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
MightyHedgehog said:
Precisely because it concerns a woman's rights, I've always thought that issues such as this should ONLY be voted on by women. Otherwise, you overly involve religion unnecessarily. And in the case that it could be only voted by women, pro-choice would rule the day with virtually zero serious opposition. And why do men get to vote on equal pay for equal work? Why do straight people get to vote on gay issues? It's maddening in a way.
Click to expand...

The counter argument of course is that it also involves the rights of the fetus. That's pretty much the central argument.
 
R

ryutaro's mama

Member
Stridone said:
Wrong comparison, guns being legal poses a risk for everyone.
Click to expand...

And you missed the part where they HAVE been legal and for the most part, unless in the hands of the irresponsible/crazy, they AREN'T a risk to people.

Again, one group shouldn't take away the choice for EVERYONE.

That's the point you missed.
 
C

Cloudy

Banned
Palin is fukkin shameless...

The Alaska governor then shifted gears to hammer Obama over the Illinois senator’s record on abortion.

"So I listened when our opponent defended his unconditional support for unlimited abortions and he said he said that a woman shouldn't have to be quote punished with a baby,” Palin said. “Ladies and gentlemen he said that right here in Johnstown—punished with a baby.”

When Obama made those remarks, he was not talking about abortion, as Palin suggested. Instead, he was talking about the importance of sex education in the context of his own children.

“But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16,” Obama said.

Palin portrayed Obama as out of the mainstream on the hot-button issue.

“Senator Obama has voted against bills to end partial birth abortion,” she said. “In the Illinois Senate it was thankfully a bipartisan majority that passed legislation against that practice. Senator Obama opposed that bill. He voted against it in committee and then voted ‘present’ on the Senate floor and in that legislature. Just so you know, ‘present’ is how you vote when you are against something, but you don't want to be held to account.”
Click to expand...

Good grief...
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
I'm reading through the Times story on Obama's ground game in Virginia, and a quote from the McCain camp reminded me of why Nate declared, "Wow. They. Are. So. F#$%ed."

“Because the Obama campaign gets college kids to go and stand outside a grocery store and gets anyone who comes up to them registered to vote does not mean they have a good voter registration program,” said Mr. Walker, the McCain campaign manager in the Mid-Atlantic states. “We go fishing where the fish are.”​

This after the article details the exhaustive, meticulously designed get out the vote effort that canvasses every single neighborhood in the state door to door.
 
S

Stridone

Banned
ryutaro's mama said:
And you missed the part where they HAVE been legal and for the most part, unless in the hands of the irresponsible/crazy, they AREN'T a risk to people.

Again, one group shouldn't take away the choice for EVERYONE.

That's the point you missed.
Click to expand...

True, but it does bring a bit of potential risk. I think the US has relatively more school shootings, for example.
 
F

Fireblend

Banned
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S

Speevy

Banned
I personally don't care about family I don't know more than I care about people on the other side of the world I don't know.
Click to expand...


Well, just like consumers value different attributes in a product, I suppose we each place a different value on relationships, or our fellowship to the human race as a whole.

Also, I'm sure if you polled women who have actually had abortions, I doubt "clump of cells" is a term they'd use to describe it.
 
T

teiresias

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I'm reading through the Times story on Obama's ground game in Virginia, and a quote from the McCain camp reminded me of why Nate declared, "Wow. They. Are. So. F#$%ed."

“Because the Obama campaign gets college kids to go and stand outside a grocery store and gets anyone who comes up to them registered to vote does not mean they have a good voter registration program,” said Mr. Walker, the McCain campaign manager in the Mid-Atlantic states. “We go fishing where the fish are.”​

This after the article details the exhaustive, meticulously designed get out the vote effort that canvasses every single neighborhood in the state door to door.
Click to expand...

The whole campaign and every statement sent out by senior members of the campaign staff reeks of absolute disdain and utter disrespect for the Obama people and a whole younger generation of voters or new voters. It's really contemptible.
 
S

Stridone

Banned
Speevy said:
Well, just like consumers value different attributes in a product, I suppose we each place a different value on relationships, or our fellowship to the human race as a whole.

Also, I'm sure if you polled women who have actually had abortions, I doubt "clump of cells" is a term they'd use to describe it.
Click to expand...

But that is because of their motherly instinct. It has no rational basis.
 
R

ryutaro's mama

Member
Stridone said:
True, but it does bring a bit of potential risk. I think the US has relatively more school shootings, for example.
Click to expand...

That's the same argument that says because one guy uses GTA as a reason to shoot people in real-life, we should ban it for the millions and millions that play the same game and don't.
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
Wow.. I missed a ton of PoliGaf yesterday. On the drive between New Orleans and Austin, a few ideas popped into my head..

Hypothetical #1: Colin Powell appears during Obama's infomercial and endorses him.

Hypothetical #2: Obama predicts the release of a Bin Laden tape days before the election and comments on the suspicious timing.

That's all. Continue on with the aborting and whatnot.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
Tamanon said:
The counter argument of course is that it also involves the rights of the fetus. That's pretty much the central argument.
Click to expand...
Yes, I know. It's an absurd thought, IMO, that other people can tell someone who gives life to and carries the responsibility for their developing offspring what to do and how to live in this matter. Keeping the silliness of religion out of it, there's an undeniable procedure of responsibility in the chain and it starts and ends with the woman citizen whose life it is that has a right to privacy. And that's really where this argument should stop at...it's a private matter. And I think that many current laws are perfectly reasonable in their interest to make certain that it is carried out in the most humane and safe manner (for both female citizen and her developing tissue).

Anyway, I'm done with the topic of abortion for the year.
 
Keylime

Keylime

ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
Branduil said:
So are people who are voting on the issue of the economy "dumbass single-issue" voters?

Just curious as to what the criteria is.
Click to expand...
Q: How many people are affected by the economy?
A: Everyone

Q: How many people are affected by abortions?
A: Hardly anyone
 
K

-Kees-

Member
bob_arctor said:
And remember when the McCain camp said he was playing the race card with that dollar bill comment? :lol
Click to expand...

And not just any race card!

"Barack Obama has played the race card, and he played it from the bottom of the deck," said Rick Davis, in a statement issued from the McCain campaign. "It's divisive, negative, shameful and wrong."

Oh McCain. :lol
 
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