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PoliGAF 2nd Pres. Debate 2008 Thread (DOW dropping, Biden is off to Home Depot)

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B

besada

Banned
No one lives in the midwest if you think more than 20% of the country's population is no one.

Which is why when you add in the South, Texas, the Southwest, and most of the rural areas in the East and West, you wind up with voting deadlocks over and over again.

But people on the coasts like to pretend the midwest is a giant empty plain, and use nifty condescending terms like "flyover" country.

I can't imagine why the predominantly urban Democratic party has problems there.
 
F

Fragamemnon

Member
Yeah, capital gains tax cuts! That'll do it! Cap gains taxes are already taxed lower than earned money from the middle class paycheck, this idea is more supply-side nonsense. The dividends thing is even worse, as it encourages companies to pay out to institutional investors rather than spend money re-investing for growth, which would create jobs.

McCain is now effectively pitching the worst part of the House GOP bailout effort, insane.
 
S

saelz8

Member
ABCNews/Washington Post numbers coming out tonight at 12:01 A.M.

Here's the teaser article!

Attack Blowback

October 12, 2008 6:02 PM

The McCain campaign’s more aggressive tone is prompting pushback from the public: Registered voters by a broad margin now believe John McCain is more focused on attacking his opponent than on addressing the issues in the 2008 presidential election.

Barack Obama, by contrast, is perceived even more widely as sticking to the issues, this new ABC News/Washington Post poll finds – a striking point of differentiation between the two. More differences will be reported in the full release of this ABC/Post poll on ABCNews.com at 12:01 a.m. and Good Morning America on Monday morning.

While McCain’s image as the more negative of the two is not new, it’s sharpened considerably, coinciding with his campaign’s more pointed criticisms of Obama in the last few weeks, including Sarah Palin's accusation that Obama’s been "palling around with terrorists."

Registered voters by a 24-point margin, 59-35 percent, now say McCain is more focused on attacking his opponent rather than addressing the issues. That’s grown from a roughly even 48-45 percent split on this question in late August.

There's far less criticism of the tone of Obama's campaign: Registered voters by 68-26 percent say he's mainly addressing the issues, not attacking his opponent, a slightly more positive rating than in August.
Click to expand...

More..
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Fragamemnon said:
Yeah, capital gains tax cuts! That'll do it! Cap gains taxes are already taxed lower than earned money from the middle class paycheck, this idea is more supply-side nonsense. The dividends thing is even worse, as it encourages companies to pay out to institutional investors rather than spend money re-investing for growth, which would create jobs.

McCain is now effectively pitching the worst part of the House GOP bailout effort, insane.
Click to expand...
Yup. Should be easy for Obama to shoot down, and paint as more flailing about. McCain is up to proposal number five, six? He's all over the map.
 
W

WickedAngel

Banned
Suikoguy said:
More tax cuts AND a balanced budget? Sign Me Up!
Click to expand...

The sad part is that people actually believe this shit.

It doesn't take an economist to notice that you can't pay your bills if you cut your revenues. Everyone that has ever attempted to balance their fucking checkbooks knows that.
 
T

Trakdown

Member
Fragamemnon said:
Yeah, capital gains tax cuts! That'll do it! Cap gains taxes are already taxed lower than earned money from the middle class paycheck, this idea is more supply-side nonsense. The dividends thing is even worse, as it encourages companies to pay out to institutional investors rather than spend money re-investing for growth, which would create jobs.

McCain is now effectively pitching the worst part of the House GOP bailout effort, insane.
Click to expand...

This is why you don't try to restructure your economic plans 3 weeks from the election date.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
saelz8 said:
ABC/News Washington Post numbers coming out tonight at 12:01 A.M.

Here's the teaser article!



More..
Click to expand...

That's really interesting. During the primaries, voters were split between Barack and Hillary on who was being more negative, even though Hillary was clearly going balls out attacking Obama. Obama still won.

Now, voters are actually catching on to the bullshit that's been flying. Excellent news for 'Bama.

BTW guys, don't bother wasting any mental effort on McCain's new tax cuts. They are being announced solely to throw a bone to his fiscal conservative supporters who have been reeling in horror at his mortage buy-out plan.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Frank the Great said:
That's really interesting. During the primaries, voters were split between Barack and Hillary on who was being more negative, even though Hillary was clearly going balls out attacking Obama. Obama still won.

Now, voters are actually catching on to the bullshit that's been flying. Excellent news for 'Bama.
Click to expand...
The difference this time is the media is calling more of it out. That, and it's gotten a lot more personal and blatant. I really don't think there's enough time left for McCain to dig himeself out of this hole.
 
M

maximum360

Member
Lou Dobbs and ACORN. :lol

His show is already bad but his guests just propagate the echo chamber. Also, notice how he never reads any criticisms of his program ever.
 
D

devilhawk

Member
besada said:
No one lives in the midwest if you think more than 20% of the country's population is no one.

Which is why when you add in the South, Texas, the Southwest, and most of the rural areas in the East and West, you wind up with voting deadlocks over and over again.

But people on the coasts like to pretend the midwest is a giant empty plain, and use nifty condescending terms like "flyover" country.

I can't imagine why the predominantly urban Democratic party has problems there.
Click to expand...
This is why the popular vote always is close. The democrats lose a bunch of these 'flyover states' and get like 30% of the votes. Republicans lose the coast states but still get, for example, 44% of California in 2004. Really there are a lot of possible democrat voters in the midwest but they often have felt disenfranchised because of the lack of attention.
 
G

Gigglepoo

Member
Does anyone else get insulted when the candidates (both of them) talk about tax cuts? It feels like they're appealing towards the stupidest segment of the population. Taxes are a good thing. They pay for our police officers, our schools, our roads, and a million other vital things. I have no problem paying taxes... I just want them to go to the right projects.

I would rather hear, "This is what I am going to do with your tax money..." instead of "Taxes suck! Am I right?" all the time.
 
A

adamsappel

Member
Frank the Great said:
Now, voters are actually catching on to the bullshit that's been flying. Excellent news for 'Bama.
Click to expand...
It also neatly underscores how GAF really doesn't know shit. We were howling for Obama to strike back hard and go just as negative.
 
T

theviolenthero

Member
Gigglepoo said:
Does anyone else get insulted when the candidates (both of them) talk about tax cuts? It feels like they're appealing towards the stupidest segment of the population. Taxes are a good thing. They pay for our police officers, our schools, our roads, and a million other vital things. I have no problem paying taxes... I just want them to go to the right projects.

I would rather hear, "This is what I am going to do with your tax money..." instead of "Taxes suck! Am I right?" all the time.
Click to expand...


WTF??

Obama has proposed universal health care & all sorts of other good uses for the tax money.
 
A

AlexMogil

Member
XxenobladerxX said:
No way in hell WV is turning blue this year. But it really funny to see it competitive.:D

I'm pretty sure Falin is or was going to hold an event there. :lol
Click to expand...

Palin is in Marietta Ohio today which is right on the border of WV. Biden is showing up on Tuesday. I just might sneak out and see him.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Gigglepoo said:
Does anyone else get insulted when the candidates (both of them) talk about tax cuts? It feels like they're appealing towards the stupidest segment of the population. Taxes are a good thing. They pay for our police officers, our schools, our roads, and a million other vital things. I have no problem paying taxes... I just want them to go to the right projects.

I would rather hear, "This is what I am going to do with your tax money..." instead of "Taxes suck! Am I right?" all the time.
Click to expand...
Obama is trying to rebalance things for the middle class. He's actually raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations, to fund a huge swath of new programs and investment in infrastructure.
 
W

WickedAngel

Banned
theviolenthero said:
WTF??

Obama has proposed universal health care & all sorts of other good uses for the tax money.
Click to expand...

But he has still had to shy away from talking about why taxes are important. As I said in a rant a few days back, Americans need to fucking learn that they shouldn't expect all the amenities and extras that they demand of government if they're not willing to pay some fucking taxes for them.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
BobTheFork said:
Reading that, I still find it endlessly amusing that 60 of republicans think McCain is staying 'on issue'
Click to expand...

Well to a lot of them, they believe Obama's evilness and connection to horrible people is "issues"
 
T

TDG

Banned
adamsappel said:
It also neatly underscores how GAF really doesn't know shit. We were howling for Obama to strike back hard and go just as negative.
Click to expand...
Not really. Obama has just struck back without resorting to highly personal attacks.

I think we all like to think that Obama has run a positive campaign focused on what he's going to do with the country, but he's actually run a very negative campaign, probably more negative than Gore and Kerry's combined. And that's exactly what he should have done, and good for him for doing so.
 
G

Gigglepoo

Member
theviolenthero said:
WTF??

Obama has proposed universal health care & all sorts of other good uses for the tax money.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm aware of Obama's proposals. But oftentimes in the debates, both candidates start with the "I cut taxes... he raises them!" bullshit. I don't care who cuts or raises taxes so much as where they spend that money. Way too much time is spent on this stupid tax cut/raise issue. It's just infuriating. Taxes are good!
 
R

ryutaro's mama

Member
Gigglepoo said:
Does anyone else get insulted when the candidates (both of them) talk about tax cuts? It feels like they're appealing towards the stupidest segment of the population. Taxes are a good thing. They pay for our police officers, our schools, our roads, and a million other vital things. I have no problem paying taxes... I just want them to go to the right projects.

I would rather hear, "This is what I am going to do with your tax money..." instead of "Taxes suck! Am I right?" all the time.
Click to expand...

You forgot one.

They also pay for wars we get into.

Instead of foreign banks by proxy.
 
P

Ponn

Banned
WickedAngel said:
But he has still had to shy away from talking about why taxes are important. As I said in a rant a few days back, Americans need to fucking learn that they shouldn't expect all the amenities and extras that they demand of government if they're not willing to pay some fucking taxes for them.
Click to expand...

a month before the presidential elections is NOT the most opportune time to try and educate Americans on how "good" taxes are. I would like to see how many minutes that campaign would last.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
adamsappel said:
It also neatly underscores how GAF really doesn't know shit. We were howling for Obama to strike back hard and go just as negative.
Click to expand...

We were calling for Obama to respond to negative attacks, and launch his own. Which they have undoubtedly done.

Voters are usually OK with "negative" attacks, as long as they stick to the issues. Almost all of McCain's ads, however, are direct personal attacks, which people hate.

There are varying degrees of negativity. You NEED to be negative in a campaign, you can't just pretend the other guy isn't there. But there's a line between negative campaigning and personal attacks/lies. McCain has crossed that line, Obama hasn't, and voters are recognizing it.

Pretty sure this is all GAF was ever asking for.
 
G

Gigglepoo

Member
ryutaro's mama said:
You forgot one.

They also pay for wars we get into.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I would rather pay more taxes if I could choose to spend that extra money on schools and health care and significantly less on defense. It's where taxes go that's so important, not who can cut taxes the most.

Ponn01 said:
a month before the presidential elections is NOT the most opportune time to try and educate Americans on how "good" taxes are. I would like to see how many minutes that campaign would last.
Click to expand...

Which is why we need to spend more on education. Taxes are not a difficult concept.
 
R

ryutaro's mama

Member
Gigglepoo said:
Exactly. I would rather pay more taxes if I could choose to spend that extra money on schools and health care and significantly less on defense. It's where taxes go that's so important, not who can cut taxes the most.
Click to expand...

Socialist!
 
W

WickedAngel

Banned
Ponn01 said:
a month before the presidential elections is NOT the most opportune time to try and educate Americans on how "good" taxes are. I would like to see how many minutes that campaign would last.
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting that he do it now. I'm suggesting that it can never be done and that's a problem.

It's a nuclear subject. If you talk about it (Raising taxes), you're going to get radiation poisoning and die off swiftly.
 
F

Fragamemnon

Member
GhaleonEB said:
Obama is trying to rebalance things for the middle class. He's actually raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations, to fund a huge swath of new programs and investment in infrastructure.
Click to expand...

It's important to note that the corporate tax issue is really one of fairness more than anything else. I would expect that the overall corporate tax rate will b eased down ( to reward good behavior) while the colossal number of loopholes and special provisions that resulting in such an atrocious rate of actual collection will be eliminated (to punish bad behavior). Unlike the personal income tax/capital gains/dividend rate, the problem isn't as much the rate at which things are taxes as much as it is the complete joke of the actual tax base under current law.

Businesses get another carrot by having the government address health care. Well businesses that actually currently offer health care will-large businesses that don't get fucked over, and rightly so. Nothing like having the taxpayer and health insurance customers effectively subsidize Wal-Mart employees who aren't eligible for health care.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
As word spread that Obama was in the neighborhood, a few dozen people gathered across the street to watch, as three teenage girls raced across the street in bare feet and socks, armed with cameras.

"Where are your shoes?" Obama asked them, before taking photos with them and crossing the street. There he shook hands with about a dozen neighbors, asking them what they did for a living and offering words of concern.
Click to expand...

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/10/barack_obama_john_mccain_ohio_1.html

:lol :lol Such a dad.
 
G

Gigglepoo

Member
Cloudy said:
Gigglepoo: 70 percent of the population is stupid :p
Click to expand...

Which is why I said that I feel politicians are pandering to the stupidest segment of society when they talk about tax cuts. It's insulting! :lol
 
D

devilhawk

Member
WickedAngel said:
I'm not suggesting that he do it now. I'm suggesting that it can never be done and that's a problem.

It's a nuclear subject. If you talk about it (Raising taxes), you're going to get radiation poisoning and die off swiftly.
Click to expand...
A lot of people feel that they don't get anything back for the taxes they pay already. This is the major difference between local and federal taxes as well. The federal government has always been horribly inefficient with the money they get already so people don't see the point in anteing up more.
 
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