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PopGaf OT-X | Confirmed: Mariah Carey is the Queen of PopGAF

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twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Mau ®;131892758 said:
Emma Watson questions Bey's feminist message.

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Her speech was already problematically 'white feminist' enough without needing to throw in the customary white feminist's jab at Beyoncé to be honest

Oh and taking about pandering to men after a speech where she patronisingly suggested that the problem with feminism is that it hasn't done enough to make men feel included? Please be seated.
I put Bey's brand of Feminism on the same level as hipsters who wear Che Guevara shirts and Gaga's gay pandering at its worst. Completely hollow, and more about advertising herself as hip and "on trend" than informing her fans about what Feminism is, what it stands for, and how it existed as a concept well before Beyonce looked it up in the dictionary 20 minutes ago. (Actually, fans of female Hip Hop MCs have been exposed to very strong and consistent feminist messages for decades now without even realizing it, but who will ever give them the credit, huh?)

Bey's taking a movement and trying to turn it into her own personal brand. Which wouldn't be such a huge problem if she weren't such a fucking idiot.

So basically, I agree with Emma.
Even if this were actually in some way a resemblance of reality, the mere fact that female pop stars as a whole are so averse to calling themselves feminist that you can imagine Bey making a brand out of it says everything you need to know.
 

royalan

Member
Her speech was already problematically 'white feminist' enough without needing to throw in the customary white feminist's jab at Beyoncé to be honest

Oh and taking about pandering to men after a speech where she patronisingly suggested that the problem with feminism is that it hasn't done enough to make men feel included? Please be seated.

Even if this were actually in some way a resemblance of reality, the mere fact that female pop stars as a whole are so averse to calling themselves feminist that you can imagine Bey making a brand out of it says everything you need to know.

It says nothing.

Pop stars like Madonna, Janet, TLC and, yes, even Christina Aguilera have made Feminist messages and imagery major cornerstones of their careers. They did it first, more believably, and were more involved than just copying and pasting 30 seconds of a YouTube video of someone else's words into one of their songs. These women directly challenged the patriarchy and called for the empowerment of women in their music at a time when it really COULD have had a major negative impact on their careers. That they didn't say the words "I am a Feminist" and have it in big, bold pink script across their concerts doesn't mean jack shit.

The fact that you're trying to erase the contributions of other female pop stars to the cause of female empowerment just because Beyonce woke up one day and put that shit on a t-shirt symbolizes everything about Beyonce's approach to Feminism that pisses me off. She's made it about her.

EDIT: Funny thing is, all the people gushing at the mouth to proclaim Beyonce Queen of the Feminists thanks to the hype of this one damn album always seem to fail to mention Independent Women, which is by far the strongest Feminist statement Bey's ever made, and came out over a decade ago. Goes to show how sheep-like people can be.
 
The fact the no one considers them feminist is the problem. Why? Because they actually themselves run away from it. Having feminist views in one or two of your songs does not show you are dedicated to the entire concept. The point of Feminism is to speak up about it and if you are a celebrity figure... Use your power, impact and brand to push it forward. Notice Feminism is something constantly being a talked about on the internet? sure , it not being always talked about in a positive light but because famous figures like Beyoncé who puts the conversation face first.

It almost like you don't want to give her credit for actually pushing it. Since Destiny child's, female empowerment was in her blood. You know it's dead wrong to make it seem like all of a sudden, right now is the only time we've talked about it.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
So hang on, first your argument was that Bey has leaped on a popular bandwagon, now you're saying that she was pushing feminist ideals over a decade ago.
 

royalan

Member
The fact the no one considers them feminist is the problem. Why? Because they actually themselves run away from it. Having feminist views in one or two of your songs does not show you are dedicated to the entire concept. The point of Feminism is to speak up about it and if you are a celebrity figure... Use your power, impact and brand to push it forward. Notice Feminism is something constantly being a talked about on the internet? sure , it not being always talked about in a positive light but because famous figures like Beyoncé who puts the conversation face first.

It almost like you don't want to give her credit for actually pushing it. Since Destiny child's, female empowerment was in her blood. You know it's dead wrong to make it seem like all of a sudden, right now is the only time we've talked about it.

I'm not giving her credit because she doesn't deserve any. The only credit Beyonce deserves is for convincing her stans that Feminism has something to do with what they looked like when they woke up. Gives me a chuckle whenever I check Tumblr/Twitter.

Not saying the word Feminism is not running from Feminism. Feminism is more than just its title. And NONE of the pop stars I just mentioned ran from female empowerment. It was everywhere, from their music to their interviews to how they lived (and still live) their lives.
 
She doesn't deserve credit for pushing Feminism forward to the point of bringing up Chimanda's speech in her VMA performance? I get that you don't like Beyonce, but it's ridiculous that you think she doesn't deserve any credit at all. Oh but Emma's White Feminism 101 speech so amazing because she took the time to shit on Beyonce!
 
There's been enough of a lead for one of our contenders that we can officially call Battle 09 over! Who gets to move forward to the next round?

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Congrats to Kellegend. An overwhelming number of votes for Kelly came through, with Katy Perry receiving a record low so far with paltry single digit votes. A sad day for Katy Keene, sure, but fret not Katy fan(s), she still has a shot in the Losers Bracket. Maybe.

Check back in a few moments for the FINAL battle of the first round! After Battle 10, we're forging ahead! Make sure to PM hard on this next one. :)
 

RubyFaith

Member
Should I refrain
From talking at you, talking on
You know me well
I don't explain
But what the hell
Why do you think I come 'round here on my free will?
Wasting all my precious time
Oh the truth spills out
And oooooo oh I've
I've told you now
I've told you now
And I've told you now!
And I've told you now!

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Our last two contestants are ready to fight! Who's ready for it?

The icon and the promising up-n-comer. But does this rookie have what it takes to take down motherfucking Madonna?

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Probably the realest David and Goliath matchup yet, but you guys have been on a roll with your bizarre voting trends so I have no idea what's gonna happen here. Vote with your minds, hearts, pants or whatever else, but just VOTE!

You can PM me your votes by CLICKING HERE.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
This one is tough for me because while I love Charli and think she's probably the best thing in pop since Robyn roped in The Knife to help her produce Who's That Girl, Madonna is by far the most influential and important person in the poll by several miles. Oh and she's also been responsible for some of the best pop music ever made.
 
This one is tough for me because while I love Charli and think she's probably the best thing in pop since Robyn roped in The Knife to help her produce Who's That Girl, Madonna is by far the most influential and important person in the poll by several miles. Oh and she's also been responsible for some of the best pop music ever made.

Doesn't matter. Interlopers will come in and vote for the hews and jeer at us outside of this thread. This whole thing is a farce.
 

MIMIC

Banned
There's been enough of a lead for one of our contenders that we can officially call Battle 09 over! Who gets to move forward to the next round?

ibzYWmTXmkvvLu.png


Congrats to Kellegend. An overwhelming number of votes for Kelly came through, with Katy Perry receiving a record low so far with paltry single digit votes. A sad day for Katy Keene, sure, but fret not Katy fan(s), she still has a shot in the Losers Bracket. Maybe.

Check back in a few moments for the FINAL battle of the first round! After Battle 10, we're forging ahead! Make sure to PM hard on this next one. :)

This is an outrage. How did Kelly not receive 100% of the vote?
 

rude

Banned
It says nothing.

Pop stars like Madonna, Janet, TLC and, yes, even Christina Aguilera have made Feminist messages and imagery major cornerstones of their careers. They did it first, more believably, and were more involved than just copying and pasting 30 seconds of a YouTube video of someone else's words into one of their songs. These women directly challenged the patriarchy and called for the empowerment of women in their music at a time when it really COULD have had a major negative impact on their careers. That they didn't say the words "I am a Feminist" and have it in big, bold pink script across their concerts doesn't mean jack shit.

The fact that you're trying to erase the contributions of other female pop stars to the cause of female empowerment just because Beyonce woke up one day and put that shit on a t-shirt symbolizes everything about Beyonce's approach to Feminism that pisses me off. She's made it about her.

EDIT: Funny thing is, all the people gushing at the mouth to proclaim Beyonce Queen of the Feminists thanks to the hype of this one damn album always seem to fail to mention Independent Women, which is by far the strongest Feminist statement Bey's ever made, and came out over a decade ago. Goes to show how sheep-like people can be.
IA with this entire comment. I honestly can't imagine an artist tackling the kind of material Christina did in Stripped for example without it coming off as horribly contrived today.
 

Mumei

Member
Her speech was already problematically 'white feminist' enough without needing to throw in the customary white feminist's jab at Beyoncé to be honest

Oh and taking about pandering to men after a speech where she patronisingly suggested that the problem with feminism is that it hasn't done enough to make men feel included? Please be seated.

Re-posting:


Have you read this
? I linked Satch but I don't think I posted it in here. Royalan would enjoy it. :3
“You don’t see black versions of Lady Gaga crossing over to the extent that Beyoncé has or reaching her levels of success. Black artists rarely have the same privilege of not conforming to dominant image expectations.”

Solange, Beyoncé’s sister, who has gone for a natural-haired, boho, less sexified approach to her music, remains a niche artist, as do Erykah Badu, Janelle Monáe, and Shingai Shoniwa of the Noisettes, like so many black female artists before them. Grace Jones, Joan Armatrading, Tracy Chapman, Meshell Ndegeocello—talented all, but quirky black girls, especially androgynous ones, don’t sell pop music, perform at the Super Bowl, or get starring roles in Hollywood films.

Black women (and girls) have also historically battled the stereotype of innate and uncontrolled lasciviousness, which may explain why Beyoncé’s sexuality is viewed differently from that of white artists like Madonna, who is lauded for performing in very similar ways.

A Seattle Times review of a recent Madonna tour stop praises the artist for “rocking us as a feminist icon” and applauds the singer for her brazen sexuality: “stripping down to a bra, then pulling her pants down below a thong and baring her cheeks to the Key [Arena].” Even the Guardian’s Freeman, in an ode to Like a Prayer, the writer’s favorite album, speaks longingly about Madonna’s midriff-baring ’80s fashion and the video to the title track, which “featured a woman named Madonna apparently giving a blow job to a black Jesus.”

Through a career that has included crotch-grabbing, nudity, BDSM, Marilyn Monroe fetishizing, and a 1992 book devoted to sex, Madonna has been viewed as a feminist provocateur, pushing the boundaries of acceptable femininity. But Beyoncé’s use of her body is criticized as thoughtless and without value beyond male titillation, providing a modern example of the age-old racist juxtaposition of animalistic black sexuality vs. controlled, intentional, and civilized white sexuality.
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I wonder if this is why I always see Rihanna referred to as all kind of rat faced, STD ridden, sluts here. Hasn't she been only linked to CB and maybe Drake? Props to the good sis Koodo for his tireless efforts to shine the light on actual whores like Taylor Swift.
</3
Like critiques of her sexed-up performances, response to Beyoncé’s recent pregnancy illustrates that black female bodies remain fodder for public gossip. Even with the devotion of mainstream media (especially the entertainment and gossip genres) to monitoring female celebrities’ sexuality, “baby bumps,” and engagement rocks, the speculation about Beyoncé’s womb stands apart as truly bizarre. Almost as soon as the singer revealed her pregnancy at the 2011 MTV Video Music Awards, there was conjecture—amplified by a televised interview in which the singer’s dress folded “suspiciously” around her middle—that it was all a ruse to cover for the use of a surrogate.

The HBO documentary, which chronicled her pregnancy, failed to quiet the deliberation. Gawker writer Rich Juzwiak proclaimed, “Beyoncé has never been less convincing about the veracity of her pregnancy than she was in her own movie.... We never see a full, clear shot of Beyoncé’s pregnant, swanlike body. Instead it’s presented in pieces, owing to the limitations of her Mac webcam. When her body is shown in full, it’s in grainy, black-and-white footage in which her face is shadowed.” There is, in this assessment, a disturbing assumption of ownership over Beyoncé’s body. Why won’t this woman display her naked body on television to prove to the world that she carried a baby in her uterus?

The conversation surrounding Beyoncé feels like assessing a prize thoroughbred rather than observing a human woman, and it is dismaying when so-called feminist discourse contributes to that.
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Beyoncé’s public life, from the reveal of her pregnancy to the first photos of daughter Blue Ivy’s face, appears choreographed. And while many critics view that control as merely mercenary, it is well worth noting that this level of power is an achievement in an industry where “suits” retain significant control over “creatives.”

Beyoncé’s attention to her image may well be her way of moving within the boundaries and limitations of gender and race that Jackson mentions.
In GQ, Beyoncé noted, “I try to perfect myself.” A quest for perfection may not result in raw realness, but it just might keep a sister on top in a society still plagued with biases.
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This is why I fucks with Mumei. I wouldn't have even clicked on the link if someone else had posted it. Excellent article.

The idea that the only feminism in Beyoncé's album was the thirty seconds of Chimamanda speaking is nonsense. You also have songs like Partition, which samples a line from the French version of The Big Lebowski which translates to, "Do you like sex? Sex. I mean, the physical activity. Coitus. Do you like it? You're not interested in sex? Men think that feminists hate sex, but it's a very stimulating and natural activity that women love," which is a clear criticism the notion that sex is naturally anti-feminist (something that some feminists should try to remember when it comes to black women, apparently). Or you have songs like Pretty Hurts, which is a great critique of pervasive beauty standards, as explained here for the clueless who think the fact that she is beautiful means that she cannot make that critique. It just seems like a really shallow understanding of the album to claim that the extent of the feminism was a thirty second sound-bite, when it was every bit as implicitly feminist throughout as any of the women royalan cared to name drop, it was a more explicit and more coherent representation of those values, and she wasn't a coward too afraid to own the label. I do

As for Emma Watson's speech (which I actually liked, myself), this is a good critique. It's a bit disappointing to read Emma make such a shallow commentary on Beyoncé's album the day after I read that, but I can't say that I am surprised.
 

Dr. Malik

FlatAss_
I agree with Roy and Emma


as for this round they are both overrated as fuck but at least Madonna's 'singing' is more pleasing to the ear than Charles' shouts
 
So we agree white feminist can stil tell black feminist how to act and what is right, like the rest of the white society? OK.

Clearly white feminist and black feminist have the same struggle. Emma had a cute moving piece, but that doesn't mean Beyoncé way of promoting it in sexual black empowerment which is looked down upon, is bad.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
how in the world can Charli XCX be on the same level as Madonna

i mean yes, madonna no longer has functioning hips but its madonna
 

royalan

Member
So we agree white feminist can stil tell black feminist how to act and what is right, like the rest of the white society? OK.

Clearly white feminist and black feminist have the same struggle. Emma had a cute moving piece, but that doesn't mean Beyoncé way of promoting it in sexual black empowerment which is looked down upon, is bad.

Clearly they don't, seeing as the race critique is used as a defense when a white person critiques a black person for any reason. Sometimes its just petty.

I don't see Emma's criticism of Beyonce's approach to feminism as "white vs black feminism" as I don't read anything in her statement as referring to Beyoncé's blackness or black culture... Unless you consider open displays of sexuality to be exclusively a black thing, which would be worlds of problematic.

The only reason this is being labeled as "white vs black feminism" is because Emma, who is white, said something critical about Beyoncé, who is black. But really, it should take more than that.
 

Mau ®

Member
The Lord will headline Rock in Rio

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Also, here's Her promo schedule so far

10.06 | Le Grand Journal (TBA) France
10.10 | The Graham Norton Show (TBA) U.K.
10.20 | X Factor (TBA) Australia
10.22 | Ellen DeGeneres (TBA) U.S.
10.23 | Jimmy Kimmel Live (TBA) U.S.
10.24 | We Can Survive Concert (TBA) U.S.
10.27 | Good Morning America (TBA) U.S.
10.27 | CMT TV Special (TBA) Canada
10.31 | Late Show with David Letterman (TBA) U.S.

We're exactly one month away from 1989!!!
 

3phemeral

Member
Clearly they don't, seeing as the race critique is used as a defense when a white person critiques a black person for any reason. Sometimes its just petty.

I don't see Emma's criticism of Beyonce's approach to feminism as "white vs black feminism" as I don't read anything in her statement as referring to Beyoncé's blackness or black culture... Unless you consider open displays of sexuality to be exclusively a black thing, which would be worlds of problematic.

The only reason this is being labeled as "white vs black feminism" is because Emma, who is white, said something critical about Beyoncé, who is black. But really, it should take more than that.

Now, I haven't read into Emma's speech so I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here: I'm not convinced that not explicitly mentioning black feminism or any relationship to Beyonce's portrayal is really evidence that she isn't condemning it. Couldn't it be that simply lacking acknowledgement that there are, in fact, different perspectives of how feminism is perceived be the problem? That assuming feminism is a singularly experienced the same across all women?

I could be missing some valuable details from Emma's speech, but people can inadvertently condemn something without even knowing it just because they fail to acknowledge that it's an issue to begin with.
 

RubyFaith

Member
Honest question, how many females are in this thread? I've always assumed that the majority are male and I may be the only female posting but I can't really tell since I don't post often.
 

Yado

Member
Honest question, how many females are in this thread? I've always assumed that the majority are male and I may be the only female posting but I can't really tell since I don't post often.

I always assume everyone posting here is a guy except Dragonz and Aya.
 

royalan

Member
Now, I haven't read into Emma's speech so I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here: I'm not convinced that not explicitly mentioning black feminism or any relationship to Beyonce's portrayal is really evidence that she isn't condemning it. Couldn't it be that simply lacking acknowledgement that there are, in fact, different perspectives of how feminism is perceived be the problem? That assuming feminism is a singularly experienced the same across all women?

I could be missing some valuable details from Emma's speech, but people can inadvertently condemn something without even knowing it just because they fail to acknowledge that it's an issue to begin with.

That could certainly be possible, but I think there needs to be a check point that you have to reach before you can say you're doing anything more than reading into someone's statements what isn't there.

In this case, Emma's criticism is just too general for me to say this is an example of white vs black feminism. All she said was that Bey's videos were a little too male gaze-y, which is a criticism that can and HAS been lobed at countless female entertainers of all races. And lets not forget, there are a handful of white female dancers in Bey's videos doing those same routines.

I think a better example of white vs black feminism manifesting itself would be Nicki Minaj responding to criticisms of her Anaconda single cover by posting a dozen screenshots of ads featuring white woman in bikinis, many of whom with asses just as exposed as hers, and pointing out that none of those caused a public outcry regarding decency.
 
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