Still in stage 3 I see.
PROMETHEUS UNMARKED SPOILER THREAD!
- Thread starter Chopper
- Start date
- Status
Still in stage 3 I see.
we.are.the.armada
Member
What was the significance of Vickers' reveal as Weyland's daughter?
During the "...father!" scene, which part of the ship are they in? Is there a layout of the ship in the art book? Thanks.
During the "...father!" scene, which part of the ship are they in? Is there a layout of the ship in the art book? Thanks.
Discotheque
Banned
God damn I rolled my eyes at that scene, I totally saw it coming too.
Except none of the other explanations stand up, at all.
And the film is dripping in references to it, with all the heavy handed symbolism, because that is what it is about.
Ill-conceived, lazy, not to mention ridiculous. And what do you do when you have something like that? Shroud it in ambiguity, confused narrative and unexplained motives, because you have no confidence in the story you are telling.
Profound? No. Incompetent.
The significance of her reveal has the most to do with how bitter she is towards her father as he likes what he created artificially (David) than what he created "naturally" in her. She resents David a great deal because of this.
Cargo hold I believe.
D.Lo
Member
I'll drop my 'purpose of the sexually violent imagery' line as it's really just another point about Alien doing something simple with razor-sharp execution while Prometheus does lofty ideas with a veneer that references Alien but a big old mess of a narrative and lore.
Hell yeah. They were so clearly meant to be bones of an exotic creature in Alien, not a goddamn suit. I'll remember them as a mystery rather than Dr Manhattan/Jason Voorhees.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
Where in that film did they even give the notion that Jesus was sent by the Engineers and they were pissed that he was crucified? The whole idea of the film was where we came from and our belief system. When David asked why she still wore the necklace now that they knew the Engineers created life on Earth, her response was, "Who created the Engineers?" All she was saying was that just because there were Engineers, her belief in God wasn't going to change.
Nah, it wasn't just bones in Alien. The space jockey was fused into the seat, implying that some of the exoskeleton visible was probably part of the seat/ship. It's a Geiger design, so biomechanical's kind of the name of the game.
I do kinda think the idea that it's basically a giant full body seatbelt is a little disappointing, though.
Well considering they'd been visiting us regularly, throughout MUCH more barbaric and less informed times, the event about 2000 years ago must have been pretty damn significant to cause them to abort a project that was most likely millions of years in the making.
Like something that directly impacts on THEM. Now we weren't travelling round space, so they were amongst us. And we killed one. And his name was Jesus.
The film takes place at Christmas, the cross is everywhere, the theme of God vs. its creation done not only literally but also lazily by trying to tie into the Bible as well.
However you try and fill in the blanks, it's staring you in the face and renders the film absurd on so many levels. Far more troubling than all the other problems with the writing and characterisation. The film was just a bad premise, badly executed because there was no way of telling this story in a satisfying and believable way.
You've made this pretty clear in your many posts. Thanks.
RealDeadOne
Member
I thought the engineers were great; they were intentionally designed as "buff albino dudes" for much the same reason Voldemort and Gollum look like they do. They're supposed to be unsettlingly unnatural looking, corpse-like.
I wasn't aware I was answering you.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
I suspect them whole theme of black vs. white is at play in here somewhere. Lindelof loved that shit in Lost and I wouldn't at all be surprised if those colors have significance in this movie as well.
White Engineers
White Squid-Hugger
Black Deacon
Black Goo
Black Captain sleeping with White Lady?!
...maybe I'm reaching, but I think it'll come out that these colors mean something.
radios shipping overview
Member
LOL IT'S A MASK!
Yeah, definitely. That's a retcon that felt like Scott was pulling the rug out in order to suit his prequel ideas. I saw the fact that the jockey was fleshless and somewhat fused into the seat as a sign of both completely alien integration with its ship technology and of extreme age/fossilization.
It's always disappointing when a prequel makes the universe of the original feel smaller by trying to tie things together too neatly.
we.are.the.armada
Member
It looked like a swank bedroom to me - damn, I could be wrong, it's all a blur.
The reason I'm curious is because there was a theory that Vicker's quarters and medpod are also Weyland's. If they are in a room near or in her quarters, they would have seen/heard evidence of the medpod had being used and possibly the squid baby.
Contrasting black and white as a visual device seems perfect for Lindelof since it's implications cannot escape even the lowest brow.
I am still not entirely convinced that the engineers where trying to wipe us out.
Was that literally the last of them? There where hundreds of bases on the planet, all of them where compromised? Where there no other bases from which to launch an attack?
There was something we did 2000 years ago so bad that they decided to destroy us, then oh no some dudes in a base die so they call off the plan till we go find them and wake them up?
What support is there for the theory that they where planning to cleanse the earth besides shaw thinking that? She thought allot of things that ended up being wrong...
Was that literally the last of them? There where hundreds of bases on the planet, all of them where compromised? Where there no other bases from which to launch an attack?
There was something we did 2000 years ago so bad that they decided to destroy us, then oh no some dudes in a base die so they call off the plan till we go find them and wake them up?
What support is there for the theory that they where planning to cleanse the earth besides shaw thinking that? She thought allot of things that ended up being wrong...
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
What exactly was the "universe" presented in Alien that Prometheus has tarnished? Alien did absolutely no universe building at all. Like none.
We have a ship full of people that get woken up to go visit a planet's distress signal. They go check it out. They walk into a room with a giant dude with a hole in his chest. They find a bunch of eggs. One guy gets face hugged. One guy births a monster. It turns out the Android on board has the objective to study and preserve that monster at the cost of the crew. That monster kills everyone except Ripley. Ripley ejects it into space while running around in her skivvies.
There's no "universe" at play in this movie at all. The whole Space Jockey thing contributes nothing to the story whatsoever besides foreshadowing the chest-burster. It doesn't matter who it is...why it's there...where it came from... the story just uses this to highlight that some unnatural shit happened to him.
I really get lost when people complain that Prometheus somehow retroactively is ruining Alien/Aliens. I don't see it at all.
Perhaps the Space Jockey wasn't what you'd thought he was going to be...but why the hell were you speculating about the Space Jockey in the first place? It had no purpose in the movie at all to make you want to know those things in service of the plot.
The Albatross
Member
Real question: What is the significance of Vicker's at all? Like.. what does she add to the movie in any way? One dimensional character that makes no sense and has utterly no relevance to any part of the story, is killed in an uneventful way relative to other characters. I suppose, she's the one who keeps the main infected guy off the ship, but let's be honest, he was going to keep himself off of the ship.
She adds nothing to the story. And Charlize Theron is really pretty and all ... but not like a total bombshell that she has to be added to the movie for NO REASON.
Also, the bit with her father, like, well, obviously it's her dad. Beyond that it doesn't matter that's her dad at all.
Oh, someone at work is like "Oh, she's a robot, it's really obvious." Is it obvious? Is she a robot? Does it matter that she is?
It isn't necessarily limited to that, though, since the Jockeys also ran around wearing those suits when they weren't sitting in the seat.
we.are.the.armada
Member
I think Ridley confirmed the operation wipe-out humanity dealio. The 2000 years shlock reeks of Ridley's space Jesus fiction.
We don't know, and the people in the movie didn't even attempt to inspect the other facilities. For all we know, they still had sleeping Engineers in them as well... perhaps, other things.
No support other than characters in the movie exposing it. "They were leaving" "Military installation" I think even Ridley mentioned weapon of mass destruction. It's all so silly, yet fascinating!
The Albatross
Member
I disagree here. I always thought in Alien that it was clear that was a suit, not necessarily part of their body. I coincidentally happened to watch Alien again a week ago, having not seen it in years and not knowing that Prometheus had anything to do with Alien, and walked away fully thinking that the thing they discover in that chair was a suit of sorts.
we.are.the.armada
Member
No way she mutated into that thing and fossilized in 20+ years. Also, Queens don't lay eggs in nice neat rows. Also, Ridley talked about what happened on that ship IIRC.
Now that I think about, she could have been a marketing gimmick - she was prevalent in the commercials, trailers, clips. She has a powerful image that entices you, wanting to you know more - it worked! Damn.
Could be, we'll have to find out in a sequel if that's where he takes it. It seems like if there is going to be a sequel that it's going to be a long time. He's got a couple more movies already in line before this.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
I seriously doubt that they'd include a character purely to slap them on a billboard and include them in advertising...but maybe I'm underestimating how slimey Hollywood can be.
I'd like to think that she was included so the movie could have some form of: Weyland has daughter. Weyland doesn't a shit about daughter. Weyland creates David. Weyland loves the shit out of David.
Some kind of Engineers makes humans, humans made Androids, humans love Androids more than they love their fellow humans (even their own daughters).
That'd be my guess. Not really spelled out in this movie, but I'm guessing it'll get more play next movie.
Rapid mutation was kind of all over....
as for fossilizing, LV-426's atmosphere could of accelerated that. I am not so sure it was actually fossilized, the helmets looked like that in the ones they found in Prometheus. I think the nostromo crew looked at it briefly and thought it looked like a fossil.
Definitely - Alien made it feel chilling, his chest ripped open - with clear implication that he was basically unable to defend himself/run when a facehugger found him...maharg said:
Prometheus - well it just came across as one of the many "look, over there - an alien reference" points that film gets really obnoxious with.
radios shipping overview
Member
A universe in which an ancient spacefaring race of immense semi-humanoids of vast knowledge and technical ability experimented with biological/mechanical combination and integration, applying their knowledge to spacecraft design and the production of biological weapons. One of their weapons-carrying craft suffered a breach of safety systems or practices, causing its pilot to become infected with the very weapon it was carrying, and the ship crashed.
Weyland-Yutani, Mother, and Kane become aware of the fate of the craft and its payload, via the distress signal itself and by possible foreknowledge of the Engineers and their weaponry. It's always given to the viewer to believe that the Corporation knows much more than it ever lets on.
Alien and Aliens worked by presenting these two vast and shadowy entities interacting - the Corporation and the Engineer race (plus the Xenomorphs) - and showing us only what the regular joes on the ground are able to see of them, while simultaneously allowing us to infer much about both entities via production design and dialogue. What we're able to figure out about both entities - and how sinister and incomprehensible they seem to be - gives them a Lovecraftian menace.
By explaining so much and providing motivations that are so petty, Prometheus simplifies both the Corporation and the Engineers in a way that is ultimately strained and unsatisfying.
we.are.the.armada
Member
Haha, I agree. Anything goes when you don't have to be consistent or follow a path of logic. Black ooze = deus ex machina
Still, Ridley talked about what happened there already and it had no connection to Shaw - unless he decides to retcon that too.
Well he is the master of retcons...
Deckard was not a replicant dammit!
My take on the "space jesus" theory:
I don't think that we literally "killed" an engineer... perhaps our offense was simply not worshiping them/forgetting them.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
What movie were you watching that got you all of that?! What in the...Alien/Aliens doesn't hit on this at all.
This is true...but this really doesn't get addressed in Prometheus. Weyland is in it, the corporation is in play...but all of those other things you mention are still in tact.
Again, where are you getting all this lore about the Engineers/Space Jockey's from? None of this is in the movies in any way.
The engineers didn't exist before Prometheus, so no harm, no foul.
The Corporation's motives and actions from the previous movies are in no way less plausible or unrealistic based on what we see in this movie. If anything, it may be foreshadowing that somehow the corporation knew about these Xenomorphs before the movie of Alien ever takes place.
That kind of begs the question, why not send more people to LV-223 to collect samples.
I guess in the end with everyone dead and only a vague warning that nothing but death was there they didn't realize the goldmine of alien tech that was there?
All of this is summed up in that people have had 30 years to theorize about everything in Alien. So when Scott (the creator of the story) came out with his original vision for what happened, people got pissed because it didn't fit with what they thought he was getting at back then. Creation getting pissed off at the creator, haha.
radios shipping overview
Member
It was all in the production design and what you can see onscreen. Yes, we've had 30 years to pick everything apart, but it's all in what you can see and not necessarily in what's explained. Like in Prometheus, everybody in the audience figures out that LV-223 is a weapons depot about 15 minutes before Idris Elba explains it to us via proxy.
we.are.the.armada
Member
Thanks to anybody that can help me out with these:
Why wasn't LV223 ever mentioned in the Alien franchise?
If space miners are in that sector, why was it not terraformed like LV426 is?
Even if Prometheus was top secret, we can't exclude that Weyland could have had rival corporations eying his every move yet none of them followed up on what happened to him or Vickers. Is this a retcon, or did Ridley draw this fiction upon a mentioning in the Alien franchise? Who is Yutani?
I'd like to know because I haven't seen these movies in years.
Why wasn't LV223 ever mentioned in the Alien franchise?
If space miners are in that sector, why was it not terraformed like LV426 is?
Even if Prometheus was top secret, we can't exclude that Weyland could have had rival corporations eying his every move yet none of them followed up on what happened to him or Vickers. Is this a retcon, or did Ridley draw this fiction upon a mentioning in the Alien franchise? Who is Yutani?
I'd like to know because I haven't seen these movies in years.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
This is the exact behavior that people are shredding other people over in regards to Prometheus. People trying to find deeper meaning in what we see are being told that since the movie didn't spell it out, it's crazy to try an insert any kind of explanation for it.
...now we've got this where you're spelling out all of these assumptions based purely on conjecture and you're upset that I'm calling you out for the same thing.
It can't be both ways!
The Albatross
Member
As someone who has only seen Alien 1 and now Prometheseus (no AvP, no Aliens, Alien 3, etc. Actually, isaw Alien Ressurection in high school for no reason).
Weyland ties into the series later, right? What's the deal with him?
Weyland ties into the series later, right? What's the deal with him?
radios shipping overview
Member
I'm not calling people out for trying to read into Prometheus the same way. I'm saying that Prometheus is explicit about a lot more than previous movies, and what it reveals is frankly not that interesting.
Well, there's a lot inferred in 30 years, like I said. What Scott did fits perfectly with what he did in Alien, but it doesn't fit what people had theorized for years on. And the theories were really cool, I participated in them as well. And there's still quite a bit of room for theorization at this point, there's quite a bit left unsaid.
While it doesn't matter too much, LV-223 and LV-426 could (however unlikely) be in the same planet's orbit or the same solar system, if nothing else. They were in the same star system of Zeta II Reticuli in Alien and in Prometheus, so there's that. The space jockey seen in Alien could have bailed out from LV-223 and jumped ship to another moon and there met his demise. Or they could be in the same star system but be thousands of light years away regardless. In both movies though, you see a ringed planet and the ship lands on a moon that is orbiting the planet.
jiji said:
See, that's just your opinion as far as it not being interesting. It's been out for 2 weeks. We'll see in the passage of years whether it was interesting or not. There's a lot of people discussing what things meant (much like they've been doing with Alien forever) and asking questions, so at least at some level, some people are finding it interesting.
user8503492
Banned
Ok so I saw this last night and while the visual were stunning the movie was shit.
So much of it made no sense, I spent 99% of the movie rolling my eyes.
So much of it made no sense, I spent 99% of the movie rolling my eyes.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
It's strange, because while I'd say Prometheus was overly ambiguous, there are folks (more than just yourself) saying that Prometheus is cut and dry and presents nothing worth talking about.
Heck, even the Red Letter Media parody video is highlighting all the random questions that you can ask that the movie doesn't answer (although a lot of them are picking apart movie inconsistencies or bad plot devices...mostly valid).
There's some fundamental disagreement about this movie that seems to be causing all these problems between viewers.
cloud_sleep
Member
I hate what this film did to the space jockeys. I was fine with not knowing anything more about the SJ from the derelict ship in Alien. If they HAD to explain them in PROM, I wish they had kept them as a separate but subordinate species to the engineers or something like that rather than the very unsatisfying explanation we got.
The Elite
BOSS
Not personally. The Company, Weyland-Yutani, continues to seek the Xenomorph up until the end of Alien 3. In Alien Ressurection, I believe Welyand-Yutani has been purchased by Wal-Mart.
Also, watch Aliens as soon as possible.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
Why does it matter to you? I really don't understand how the origin and nature of the Space Jockey's at all changes the movie Alien in any positive or negative way.
The Space Jockey wasn't at all important to the plot in that movie.
The space jockey was always the mysterious thing that people wanted to know about. Now we know (sort of
) and people seem pissed at what they are.I am fine with what they are, and I still think there is enough to wonder about.
When David and crew escort Weyland to meet the Engineer, Shaw asks David why they were headed to Earth and David says "Sometimes to create, you must destroy." The ship is a machine of war and its cargo is full of clusterbombs of black goo. The scene is followed by Shaw imploring the Engineer to tell her why they changed their minds about mankind. Why did they want to destroy us. What did we do.
They were going to wipe us out. This is one of the few things about the movie we can be certain of.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
I guess this is one of those things that are lost on me since I wasn't even alive when the movie first came out, and didn't ever research/discuss the movie outside of watching it a bunch of times.
Regardless...I still hold that the Space Jockey's origin/intentions has no impact to the movie Alien.
The Albatross
Member
Aaah alright. I heard some blokes at work saying that Weyland ties into AvP in that some character is his like ... great great great grandson or something? It was basically the only way that I could consider Vickers character as having remotely any importance to the story.
The Elite
BOSS
I don't know if I'd bother trying to tie anything into the AvP movies.
- Status