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[Audioboxer87]

And what happens when hacking potential is found within the PS3 OS?

A security update comes out that prevents you accessing PSN without updating.

Good luck with hacking the OS anyway.

 

[lupinko]

And what happens when hacking potential is found within the PS3 OS?

Sony takes that out too? :lol

 

[JudgeN]

And what happens when hacking potential is found within the PS3 OS?

Its been 4 years now, don't most consoles get hacked very early in there lifetime? I don't see the PS3 ever getting hacked at this point.

 

[hauton]

And what happens when hacking potential is found within the PS3 OS?

Hey, gofreak's only explained for the UMPTEENTH time that Sony has FULL CONTROL over one OS, and ZERO over the other.

Wanna take a guess at which one's which?

 

[Paraclete]

Well, you guys cry loud for what it means in overall. I understand you guys exist but you're like one person in million and it won't change anything for everybody else.
You'd be a fucking moron faster than me if you can't understand why Sony is doing this and how it will NOT affect an extremely large majority of users --- therefore not being a big deal.

.

Ahhh the ol' one in a million approach.:lol

 

[racerx]

If you want to watch new blu-rays/play games on line/access psn/etc...yea, yea they are.

LOL. Ok fine. So, if I want to play ps3 games, I guess that means sony is forcing me to buy a ps3?

I hate SONY! They forced me to buy a ps3!

 

[Shurs]

I've never used the Other OS functionality myself, but this sucks for people who do use it.

 

[Massa]

No, the difference is that these features are part of sony's own platform and code that they have total control over and can patch.

Again, when there was a vulnerability in the image viewer software, what did Sony do? Did they pull out the image viewing feature?

Your FUD is bullshit.

People drawing analogies with removing BC or Blu-ray or games playing capability are talking nonsense. You're talking about Sony's own platform that they can control and patch to a very granular level vs allowing a platform they have NO control over (or control limited to defining its sandbox) to be run on their system.

They are technically completely different problems, and vulnerabilities in each are addressed totally differently.

I think it's few who are defending the removal of this feature, or welcoming it, but arguing against these inferences about other functionality and its status is totally fair game.

They're not different at all. You're right that Sony can't patch Linux but they also can't patch every image out there that might be used as an exploit on their image viewer, or every web site that could trigger an exploit on their web browser.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

I have no clue what's going on in this thread now, But I think the real counter-arguement to make towards sony is that: The inclusion of linux was one of the reasons that the PS3 wasn't hacked.

The PSP is one of the most hacked consoles to date, with absolutely everything available to be done to it. Before there was piracy on the system, there was open source developers who wanted to develop things with the console. It was game piracy that came naturally, after the system was opened up to let more amateur programs get what they wanted from it(free games).

By including the other OS feature on launch consoles, sony was giving these open source developers a safe outlet for their coding Fix. Now that this feature is being taken away from them, to continue to make use of the hardware these addicts will have to bypass/hack the system to get what they want.

And they don't do it to open up piracy on a system, engineer students spend countless hours to reverse engineer the technology for the experience of it. The Other OS let them go straight to a platform that let them program on the system, this option being taken away from them will probably only lead to thy system being hacked to get even more control from it than they had when Other OS offered.

The timing of this is awful, Blu-ray PC writers and discs are becoming pretty affordable. The PS3 slim already doesn't allow linux, programers will have nothing better to do but to hack the system and take back what was taken away from them. And after they do that, someone will be able to create chips or software that will bring game piracy to the console.

 

[Audioboxer87]

I have no clue what's going on in this thread now, But I think the real counter-arguement to make towards sony is that: The inclusion of linux was one of the reasons that the PS3 wasn't hacked.

And the exclusion of it makes it even more challenging for hacking.

One console has to remain piracy free, even if it's just to piss off the pirates :lol

 

[Ranger X]

Ahhh the ol' one in a million approach.:lol

It's all about choices. They saw that removing this was bringing them more good than bad. Tuff to understand it seems for some people. You guys can, at worse, buy another PS3 for your gaming needs and not update your old one. I mean, if the Linux option is THAT important this might be a solution for you.

.

 

[Azerach]

I wonder how many people have suggested for Sony NOT to remove otherOS? http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ I searched and didn't see anything.

I found "return otherOS to slim PS3"
-83 votes

 

[rager]

Wow, what an overreaction. Do you REALLY need to run Linux on the PS3? Is this the only platform capable of running it? I installed it, messed around with it, got bored and removed it and never looked back. Sony has a right to protect itself from arrogant fucking pirates who flaunt their exploits about what they have done and plan to do to the PS3.

I am not praising Sony for doing this, but I understand why they must do it. They don't want the PS3 to turn into the psp, which is basically a pirate device.

 

[Audioboxer87]

Also this must of been discussed in 20 pages, I can't believe this has just been rage from the get go, but wasn't FW 3.20 supposed to be released in June with 3D support? :lol

Awesome April fools if true, but more than likely just large security risks found, and they're stamping them out before anything arises.

 

[iapetus]

Many would say these EULAs aren't worth a button though so you could legally still have wiggle room in a challenge. Perhaps. Depending on the judge.

There are plenty of consumer rights under EU law that you can't give away through an EULA. Some of them look like they might apply in this case.

 

[The Faceless Master]

There must be something I'm not understanding. According to what you said, I can grab software that is freely downloadable, modify it and give it to others.

That just doesn't seem kosher.

Anyways, back to the dvd firmware argument. I'm pretty sure there are some of those that don't have any microsoft code and MS is needlessly, without proof, banning people.

well, from what i've read about the ways MS has detected things (differences in data on bootleg disks from retail disks and differences in firmware timing/responses) there are no false positives, and many people who DO pirate managed to not get banned because MS, carefully collects lots of data and has a threshold for real positives before banning and some people didn't meet that threshold.

 

[Massa]

One of the most powerful things about the PS3 is the "Install Other OS" option. It won't be Vista. It'll be Linux.

- Sony's Phil Harrison.

http://kotaku.com/235049/20-questions-with-phil-harrison-at-dice

 

[DeadGzuz]

Wow, what an overreaction. Do you REALLY need to run Linux on the PS3?

Of course not, it's just an excuse to troll. No one used this feature, no one will miss it. No where in the PS3 advertising does it say "runs Linux".

 

[gofreak]

And what happens when hacking potential is found within the PS3 OS?

Already happened. They quietly patched it.

Before you get to the next question, ask yourself what the difference is for Sony between their own OS and Linux, in terms of their control.

They're not different at all.

They're very, very different. Sony's got no control over what Linux allows or doesn't allow. They can submit patches to be added into the kernel, but they can't submit the kind of patches that would be necessary to close off 'exploit exploration' - i.e. ones that would probably remove all kinds of programmable access from the user. Sony only effectively has control over what Linux can do at the hypervisor level...and that's too large grained to be effective. Disabling things at a hypervisor level would mean disabling a host of things at the Linux level that make it useful in the first place. It's pretty much all or nothing.

You're right that Sony can't patch Linux but they also can't patch every image out there that might be used as an exploit on their image viewer, or every web site that could trigger an exploit on their web browser.

That's not the nature of that exploit. They patched a problem with a class of images that could present problems. If another such exploit is found they can patch that. It's not like every image or site would be using a unique attack or problem...they would tend to try and exploit one known problem and if that's fixed, they'll all stop working. If there were so many problems and holes that there could be a wide range of unique attacks, you might have another story on your hands, but that's typically not the case.

Look at PSP. Its OS has been under persistent attack. Sony's continued to patch without needing to remove anything (AFAIK?). That's a totally different context to allowing a whole independent, third party platform to run on your hardware, and what you can do with that to supress hacking.

 

[NintendoGal]

Generally I don't go outside of particular threads to show my nerdiness, but I thought this particular dialog from Babylon 5 was quite applicable here.

Lyta: Like an infection, you have to cut it out.

Dr. Franklin: And any healthy tissue that's cut out along the way, it's okay because it's for a good cause.

:: shrug ::

 

[Massa]

Already happened. They quietly patched it.

Before you get to the next question, ask yourself what the difference is for Sony between their own OS and Linux, in terms of their control.



They're very, very different. Sony's got no control over what Linux allows or doesn't allow. They can submit patches to be added into the kernel, but they can't submit the kind of patches that would be necessary to close off 'exploit exploration' - i.e. ones that would probably remove all kinds of programmable access from the user. Sony only effectively has control over what Linux can do at the hypervisor level...and that's too large grained to be effective. Disabling things at a hypervisor level would mean disabling a host of things at the Linux level that make it useful in the first place. It's pretty much all or nothing.



That's not the nature of that exploit. They patched a problem with a class of images that could present problems. If another such exploit is found they can patch that. It's not like every image or site would be using a unique attack or problem...they would tend to try and exploit one known problem and if that's fixed, they'll all stop working. If there were so many problems and holes that there could be a wide range of unique attacks, you might have another story on your hands, but that's typically not the case.

There's absolutely no Linux exploit to fix because the problem, if it exists, is in Sony's code and not Linux.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

And the exclusion of it makes it even more challenging for hacking.

One console has to remain piracy free, even if it's just to piss off the pirates :lol

There is nothing to difficult for people with a will to get results. Its only closed off systems that get hacked to hell and back.

 

[RoH]

There's absolutely no Linux exploit to fix because the problem, if it exists, is in Sony's code and not Linux.

?

 

[gofreak]

There's absolutely no Linux exploit to fix because the problem, if it exists, is in Sony's code and not Linux.

The problem is it was accessed via Linux, was found via it. From Sony's POV, Linux could facilitate a line of relatively easy exploit discovery going into the future.

As my post made clear, I was referring to 'exploit exploration' via Linux rather than the exploit itself being there. If anything that makes it even more difficult to 'keep' Linux in the face of what it's being used for. Disabling 'exploit exploration' in Linux even if Sony did have the control to universally patch the Linux installs on PS3 would likely require disabling what makes it useful in the first place.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

When was the last time YDL PS3 got a patch/update/new version btw?

 

[Vyer]

I'm in the 'it doesn't effect me' side, but I'm not dumb enough to think this is no big deal because of that. I still feel bad for the people it does impact, and still see no reason someone should try and defend/be happy about the idea of removing features at a later date.

I do find a lot of the attempts to defend it pretty amusing, especially since one would think that Sony could be a little worried about the effect of putting a secondary OS on the system might have with piracy back when they added the feature in the first place. Seems pretty logical.

In any case, I would say that I'm surprised people are defending this, but, well.....

 

[Sapiens]

Oh well, it was fun not ever using it but knowing it was there, waiting to never be used.


Does this mean that there will be enough of those bits left to do some software BC, lol?

 

[Paraclete]

The problem is it was accessed via Linux, was found via it. From Sony's POV, Linux could facilitate a line of relatively easy exploit discovery going into the future.

As my post made clear, I was referring to 'exploit exploration' via Linux rather than the exploit itself being there. If anything that makes it even more difficult to 'keep' Linux in the face of what it's being used for. Disabling 'exploit exploration' in Linux even if Sony did have the control to universally patch the Linux installs on PS3 would likely require disabling what makes it useful in the first place.

What's to stop these "hackers" from just simply NOT updating the firmware, tinkering with Linux, finding an exploit, and then using it to play free PS3 games?

It seems like Sony is punishing a majority for the actions of a minority.

 

[Datrio]

Sorry, I won't read through every post in thread, so long story cut short - isn't Sony doing something illegal? If I bought a product which was advertised to do two things (play PS3 games and install Linux), and then they give me a choice to either have Linux (by not upgrading and disallowing me to play new PS3 games) or play PS3 games (by upgrading and disallowing me to use Linux), shouldn't Sony be sued for selling a defective product?

 

[Massa]

The problem is it was accessed via Linux, was found via it. From Sony's POV, Linux could facilitate a line of relatively easy exploit discovery going into the future.

As my post made clear, I was referring to 'exploit exploration' via Linux rather than the exploit itself being there. If anything that makes it even more difficult to 'keep' Linux in the face of what it's being used for. Disabling 'exploit exploration' in Linux even if Sony did have the control to universally patch the Linux installs on PS3 would likely require disabling what makes it useful in the first place.

And then we're back to Sony disabling things that could be used for 'exploit exploration': web browsers, image viewers, PS2 backwards compatibility, Blu-ray movie playback, PS3 games playback and the list goes on.

The funny thing is that before this all the Sony fanboys were laughing at geohotz latest exploit, saying how the color code he changed wasn't protected at all and yadayada.

 

[Drastic]

Of course not, it's just an excuse to troll. No one used this feature, no one will miss it. No where in the PS3 advertising does it say "runs Linux".

Joke post, or are you just ingnant?

http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

 

[J-Rod]

They should be legally obligated to keep major features such as this one.

 

[Massa]

Sorry, I won't read through every post in thread, so long story cut short - isn't Sony doing something illegal? If I bought a product which was advertised to do two things (play PS3 games and install Linux), and then they give me a choice to either have Linux (by not upgrading and disallowing me to play new PS3 games) or play PS3 games (by upgrading and disallowing me to use Linux), shouldn't Sony be sued for selling a defective product?

They should and they will get sued.

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

well dude,
nobody is taking this feature away from him, but hes fast at bitching around.(he can refuse to update, and as it sounded hes not much of a ps3 gamer)
fact is, he got a cell computer at a 10th of the price ibm sold the blades back then...
now that sony has reasons, yes preventing the system against hackers is important to sony, to get rid of therOS
he should be the first to say, "well it was a good ride, but they have to do this..".
sony is making buissness with the ps3, they just want to do what they can to keep going and to please shareholders - some of gaf act like god damn 5 year olds.
this guy should know better.

maybe its also because i hate fluid dynamics with a passion.

edit: i may come off as an ass, but i just want to tell people that this move (while being bad somehow) has its right, its usual business you know...

sankt-Antonio
Banned
(Today, 11:45 AM)
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Apparently so...:lol

 

[Audioboxer87]

There is nothing to difficult for people with a will to get results.

Its only closed off systems that get hacked to hell and back.

Contradiction?

If people had the knowledge/insight to hack the OS system it would've been done long before now. Linux was always gimped on the PS3 in comparison to a PC due to restricted GPU access, the PS3 OS is a much better media server than Linux.

Sony have a priority to control their own OS and console first over 3rd party software, if there is a threat in anyway to their own property, blame your hacker friends for this move.

 

[JaseC]

The funny thing is that before this all the Sony fanboys were laughing at geohotz latest exploit, saying how the color code he changed wasn't protected at all and yadayada.

They were laughing because what he was doing and what he had achieved did practically nothing to move the PS3 closer to being hacked. The removal of Linux support would appear to be a precaution, not a necessity.

 

[racerx]

Sorry, I won't read through every post in thread, so long story cut short - isn't Sony doing something illegal? If I bought a product which was advertised to do two things (play PS3 games and install Linux), and then they give me a choice to either have Linux (by not upgrading and disallowing me to play new PS3 games) or play PS3 games (by upgrading and disallowing me to use Linux), shouldn't Sony be sued for selling a defective product?

No, it is not illegal. It's in there EULA agreement that they can remove features or disable them.

Sony is isn't forcing you to update. You like linux, keep it. The only way it would be legal is if it was found that access to PSN is a consumer right.

 

[Azerach]

I'm in the 'it doesn't effect me' side, but I'm not dumb enough to think this is no big deal because of that. I still feel bad for the people it does impact, and still see no reason someone should try and defend/be happy about the idea of removing features at a later date.

I do find a lot of the attempts to defend it pretty amusing, especially since one would think that Sony could be a little worried about the effect of putting a secondary OS on the system might have with piracy back when they added the feature in the first place. Seems pretty logical.

In any case, I would say that I'm surprised people are defending this, but, well.....

We don't know what 'security issues' Sony is concerned about. Most people assume it's only about piracy, but what if everyones PSN accounts were at risk? what if your credit card info could be fished with whatever means because of a hack? IMHO it's better to avoid these problems before anything goes REALLY wrong.

 

[gofreak]

And then we're back to Sony disabling things that could be used for 'exploit exploration': web browsers, image viewers, PS2 backwards compatibility, Blu-ray movie playback, PS3 games playback and the list goes on.

Jesus. No we're not. These things are parts of Sony's platform, Linux is not. It's a totally different level of 'exploration' too, with the potential for totally different levels of repercussion and generality in their results. And Sony has a totally different level of control for responding to such exploration via their own software than via Linux (see, again, the PSP experience: what features did Sony remove when patching out exploits there? They have, IIRC, always been able to take out problems in their code without needing to cut out the feature wholesale).

There is a line, and if you can't see how Linux might fall on one side while Sony's own software falls on the other, I just don't know what more to say.

What's to stop these "hackers" from just simply NOT updating the firmware, tinkering with Linux, finding an exploit, and then using it to play free PS3 games?

It seems like Sony is punishing a majority for the actions of a minority.

Nothing, but it limits the spread of those exploits if they require or are more easily implemented with Linux.

Even if Linux is not required to use an exploit (vs finding it), it limits the number of machines out there that can use that vector of attack to find them in the first place, to find future ones.

No one is saying this guarantees some absolute level of perfect 100% compliance or security, but Sony has to be seen to respond to uses like this for the sake of their credibility with publishers etc.

 

[Speevy]

Sorry, I won't read through every post in thread, so long story cut short - isn't Sony doing something illegal? If I bought a product which was advertised to do two things (play PS3 games and install Linux), and then they give me a choice to either have Linux (by not upgrading and disallowing me to play new PS3 games) or play PS3 games (by upgrading and disallowing me to use Linux), shouldn't Sony be sued for selling a defective product?

Well let's see. I believe they changed the format of music file the Wii could play back at some point. Microsoft is ditching support for original Xbox Live games.

So no, I don't think it's illegal so much as it might be seen as unethical.

In other words, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[pyros]

Of course not, it's just an excuse to troll. No one used this feature, no one will miss it. No where in the PS3 advertising does it say "runs Linux".

I use it and will miss it, please don't make blanket statements

 

[Datrio]

No, it is not illegal. It's in there EULA agreement that they can remove features or disable them.

Sony is isn't forcing you to update. You like linux, keep it. The only way it would be legal is if it was found that access to PSN is a consumer right.

Touché, if it really says that, then they really can do everything. Still, it's a shame something like that happened.

At least I hope they'll give us something extra in the new update for that.

 

[Stinkles]

And what happens when hacking potential is found within the PS3 OS?

Wii Store will replace it.

 

[Audioboxer87]

Jesus. No we're not. These things are parts of Sony's platform, Linux is not. It's a totally different level of 'exploration' too, with the potential for totally different levels of repercussion and generality in their results. And Sony has a totally different level of control for responding to such exploration via their own software than via Linux (see, again, the PSP experience: what features did Sony remove when patching out exploits there? They have, IIRC, always been able to take out problems in their code without needing to cut out the feature wholesale).

There is a line, and if you can't see how Linux might fall on one side while Sony's own software falls on the other, I just don't know what more to say.

One of the most sensible posts

Anyway I'm going to wait till April the 1st now, I'm absolutely going to drop bricks out my pants if this turns out to be an April fools :lol

 

[Drastic]

When was the last time YDL PS3 got a patch/update/new version btw?

8 or 9 months ago - YDL 6.2

 

[DeadGzuz]

I use it and will miss it, please don't make blanket statements

What do you use it for? I installed Linux back at release. As a computer it's too slow to be useful, not enough RAM. It is mildly useful for learning SPU/Cell programming, but they also have an emulator for that.

No doubt some small group will miss the feature (if they update the firmware), but this thread is full of trolling, not real concern.

 

[Vyer]

We don't know what 'security issues' Sony is concerned about. Most people assume it's only about piracy, but what if everyones PSN accounts were at risk? what if your credit card info could be fished with whatever means because of a hack? IMHO it's better to avoid these problems before anything goes REALLY wrong.

well sure, but you are creating a lot of 'what ifs'. Just like their are some folks who have thrown 'what ifs' in this thread that make it sound like security has little to do with it.

(to be honest, if such a thing was a risk I don't see why it wouldn't be in Sony's best interest to tell us about it. Seems like a positive PR move in such a case...who knows, it may still happen)

Either way, the only thing we know for sure is that we are about to get an update that takes out a feature, and that if you don't run it it pretty much strips the hell out of your system. Don't really see why anyone (who isn't coming up with their own 'what ifs') would be happy with that.

 

[Massa]

Jesus. No we're not. These things are parts of Sony's platform, Linux is not.

Linux isn't, OtherOS is. That's what's allegedly broken and that's what they're removing instead of fixing.

 

[LM4sure]

Fuck you, Sony! This is bullshit!

I'm pissed, and I don't even have Linux installed on my PS3!

 

[gofreak]

Linux isn't, OtherOS is. That's what's allegedly broken and that's what they're removing instead of fixing.

There is nothing wrong with OtherOS, with the installation mechanism, the loading mechanism etc. It's simply what people are doing with Linux that's got Sony scared.