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[Leonidas]

agreed, ps5 pro should perform the same as a high end PC under 699 dollars.
Big brain here.

Why can't it be close to a 2-year old high end GPU, like the PS5 was?

PS5 Pro GPU is a step backwards vs. PS5 at launch (relative to PC GPUs of the time) if that attrocious 45% uplift is true.

 

[Venom Snake]

Why can't it be close to a 2-year old high end GPU, like the PS5 was?

PS5 Pro GPU is a step backwards vs. PS5 at launch (relative to PC GPUs of the time) if that attrocious 45% uplift is true.

Because a 2-year old high end gpu costs like a $1k alone.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

It sucks that the raw gpu performance gain is so low because the ray tracing and AI acceleration stuff is so damn intriguing. I feel like sony couldve had an x1x like monster here with just another 25-30% increase in raw performance. But right now it feels like another PS4 Pro with some really interesting tech but also some needless concessions that will ultimately hamper it in the long run.

The console is roughly 70% increase in TFLOPS. If that corresponds to only 45% in real time performance, it just means that the architecture isn't scaling well with additional compute. And probably why they decided to add more to RT and AI Upscale. While 45% may be disappointing, we were also disappointed by Cerny's "only 10 TFLops" before, only for it to outperform a 12 TFlop console. So obviously TFLops are not the whole picture, and I trust Cerny to prioritize hardware that gives you a better bang for your buck.

The AI upscaling alone could improve the visual performance significantly more than, say a 20 TFlop console (which would probably return only 52% increase in rendering vs 45%). It may improve the perceived resolution by 30% or more.

This console should be no mystery - you're going to get QUALITY modes at PERFORMANCE frames vs base PS5 in addition to much sharper Ray Tracing when used, and also a significantly cleaner image thanks to the upscaling. That seems like a pretty big win. Playing on PS5 currently and quality mode for games looks sharp enough to me. The issue is with the frames or the AI techniques that ruin the IQ. So if we are improving all those aspects it will be a pretty big value add.

Just remember this is not a PS6, so there's not really a point to increasing the specs well beyond it if it's not going to be taken advantage of anyways by developers. Just clean up the deficiencies of the current console and make it shine the best it can. Then move on to next gen when the tech is ready and more meaningful.

 

[Quantum253]

Because a 2-year old high end gpu costs like a $1k alone.

That's what I thought, the high end gpus were still going for 1k+. 600 for the performance would be awesome

 

[Venom Snake]

That's what I thought, the high end gpus were still going for 1k+. 600 for the performance would be awesome

It would be, but we're missing the point: if we assume that the whole thing won't cost more than $700 and Sony must make a profit on it, we shouldn't expect a GPU worth $600 inside.

 

[MCplayer]

So which graphics cards currently available are equivalent to this?

 

[Quantum253]

It would be, but we're missing the point: if we assume that the whole thing won't cost more than $700 and Sony must make a profit on it, we shouldn't expect a GPU worth $600 inside.

It's several pages back but I was thinking 699-799 but can concede 599-699
Edit
A lot of responses seem to be aiming at 600 though

 

[Mister Wolf]

If you own a PS5 prepare to get even shittier performance than you were already getting.

 

[saintjules]

That's what I thought, the high end gpus were still going for 1k+. 600 for the performance would be awesome

Awesomeness indeed but people will still complain.

 

[Leonidas]

So which graphics cards currently available are equivalent to this?

If 45% is true it probably trades blows with the 7700 XT, a lot slower than the 4070 Super.

 

[Kaiserstark]

its 45% average. they dont give best case scenario like they do for ray tracing performance. MILD inserted that nonsense about unoptimized performance. the spec sheet doesnt say anything about unoptimized.

Shame we don't have access to the GPU Overview and the Ray Tracing Programming Guide docs, that would have been interesting.

 

[Venom Snake]

It's several pages back but I was thinking 699-799 but can concede 599-699
Edit
A lot of responses seem to be aiming at 600 though

If PS5 Pro were to cost $599, the offer is even more reasonable.

It will fit in everyone's pocket and will fix the deficits of the basic model. Most buyers of this type of products will be casual gamers, not guys who like to fuck their RTX4090 more often than their wives.

 

[SlimySnake]

If you own a PS5 prepare to get even shittier performance than you were already getting.

Ps5 is fine as a 30 fps console. Sony never should've released all those cross Gen games running at 60 fps at higher resolutions. It set the wrong expectations. Last year was the first time we got actual next Gen games and it was clear we needed to drop to ps3 era resolutions to do 60 fps.

At least, now no one will be derailing threads about 60 fps modes or lack thereof because there is a console they can get that will do 60 fps without destroying image quality. Ps5 should be used exclusively as a 30 fps console going forward.

 

[saintjules]

GAF Member?

 

[Leonidas]

At least, now no one will be derailing threads about 60 fps modes or lack thereof because there is a console they can get that will do 60 fps without destroying image quality. Ps5 should be used exclusively as a 30 fps console going forward.

There will be thread derailments as soon as Digital Foundry compares the PS5 Pro to 2-4 year old PC GPUs.

 

[lh032]

Ps5 is fine as a 30 fps console. Sony never should've released all those cross Gen games running at 60 fps at higher resolutions. It set the wrong expectations. Last year was the first time we got actual next Gen games and it was clear we needed to drop to ps3 era resolutions to do 60 fps.

At least, now no one will be derailing threads about 60 fps modes or lack thereof because there is a console they can get that will do 60 fps without destroying image quality. Ps5 should be used exclusively as a 30 fps console going forward.

eh i disagree, what you are saying above is exactly why i want sony to focus on 60fps instead of 30fps.

People are too fixated with visuals and go for subpar 30fps.
Console makers should adjust the standard from this gen onwards.

 

[twilo99]

While 45% may be disappointing, we were also disappointed by Cerny's "only 10 TFLops" before, only for it to outperform a 12 TFlop console.

*in select titles, while underperforming in others.

 

[EDMIX]

Where did you hear about the MGS4 remaster??

I believe was some leak regarding MGS Collection Vol 2. Keep in mind, its kinda obvious because they would never list a "Vol 1" unless a Vol 2 was planned on existing....

They'd just call it MGS Collection or Legacy HD or some dumb shit lol

So seems very likely a remaster is on the way based on those leaks and how Konami is behaving.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Ps5 is fine as a 30 fps console. Sony never should've released all those cross Gen games running at 60 fps at higher resolutions. It set the wrong expectations. Last year was the first time we got actual next Gen games and it was clear we needed to drop to ps3 era resolutions to do 60 fps.

At least, now no one will be derailing threads about 60 fps modes or lack thereof because there is a console they can get that will do 60 fps without destroying image quality. Ps5 should be used exclusively as a 30 fps console going forward.

Next gen I'll control myself and just wait for the Pro model. I assumed the PS4 Pro was an outlier due to how long that generation lasted.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

*in select titles, while underperforming in others.

In most titles.

I'm sure much to your disappointment

 

[Loxus]

I wonder if this is the same 8-bit from the leak?

Examining AMD's RDNA 4 Changes in LLVM
RDNA 4 carries these instructions forward with improvements to efficiency, and adds instructions to support 8-bit floating point formats.


GeForce RTX 40 Series Graphics Cards: Up To 4X Faster, Powered By 3rd Gen RTX Architecture & NVIDIA DLSS 3
Ada's new 4th Generation Tensor Cores are unbelievably fast, with an all new 8-Bit Floating Point (FP8) Tensor Engine, increasing throughput by up to 5X, to 1.32 Tensor-petaFLOPS on the GeForce RTX 4090.

 

[TheUndeadGamer]

This is all well and good, but…
I want a slimmer PS5 please .

Though this is great for people who are looking for extra power.

 

[playsaves3]

Why can't it be close to a 2-year old high end GPU, like the PS5 was?

PS5 Pro GPU is a step backwards vs. PS5 at launch (relative to PC GPUs of the time) if that attrocious 45% uplift is true.

don't believe every leak

 

[Agent_4Seven]

• Rendering 45% faster than PS5
• 33.5 Teraflops

Pretty weak performance gains over original / slim model, but then again, expecting anything more (if true) is stupid.
PS6 is where everything will be on the next level and we'll see a glimpse of this in the very last few 1st party games from the masters of PS hardware utilization.

• 2-3x Ray-tracing (x4 in some cases)

Yeah, right. Good luck with that with a pretty weak CPU.

• PSSR (PlayStation Spectral Super Resolution Upscaling) upscaling/antialiasing solution

This can help with performance somewhat, but RT is also CPU limited and PS5 is not getting a 13900K / 7800X3D level of CPU upgrade at least.

• Support for resolutions up to 8K is planned for future SDK version

Ha-ha, not in a million years. Unless it's some Switch port like Monster Hunter Stories or some 2D indie game, not gonna happen ever, even on the PS6/Pro. 8K Blu-Ray playback for sure, but not for anything else.

• Custom machine learning architecture
• AI Accelerator, supporting 300 TOPS of 8 bit computation / 67 TFLOPS of 16-bit floating point

And none of this is going to materialize as native 4K 60FPS experience. But it'll probably help to make TLOUIII the best looking PS5 game ever. I'm pretty sure that what they're doing with the Pro is to solely help ND, Guerrilla and Bluepoint (probably for other studios as well but to a lesser extent) to do their magic shit and end PS5's life cycle with a bang and I'm all for that.

 

[Akuji]

Hardware based ai upscaler ..
Ai has improved alot. Crossing my fingers that this will be what DLSS was meant to be. Before nvidia realised its not there yet and Switched it to a more standard approach with dlss2, worked better but this is ... 7? Years ago?

Maybe can be done now.

 

[bitbydeath]

So which graphics cards currently available are equivalent to this?

Think of it this way.
The RTX 3090 is 40TF, where this is lower at 33TF. The 3090 is recommended for 8K gaming on PC, the Pro being notably weaker will use upscaling to fill that gap.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

 

[Quantum253]

Think of it this way.
The RTX 3090 is 40TF, where this is lower at 33TF. The 3090 is recommended for 8K gaming on PC, the Pro being notably weaker will use upscaling to fill that gap.

How big of screen are tou going to need to have to notice 8k (65+)? Would any desktop monitor (27/32") be able to noticly see 8k. I guess it comes back to 1440p to 4k scenario. I checked out the 8k tvs at Best Buy and the paint demo look the same to me on 4k/8k

 

[Leonidas]

Think of it this way.
The RTX 3090 is 40TF, where this is lower at 33TF. The 3090 is recommended for 8K gaming on PC, the Pro being notably weaker will use upscaling to fill that gap.

3090 is not recommended for 8K.

3090 today trades blows with a 4070 Super, a great card for 1440p.

 

[paolo11]

The console is roughly 70% increase in TFLOPS. If that corresponds to only 45% in real time performance, it just means that the architecture isn't scaling well with additional compute. And probably why they decided to add more to RT and AI Upscale. While 45% may be disappointing, we were also disappointed by Cerny's "only 10 TFLops" before, only for it to outperform a 12 TFlop console. So obviously TFLops are not the whole picture, and I trust Cerny to prioritize hardware that gives you a better bang for your buck.

The AI upscaling alone could improve the visual performance significantly more than, say a 20 TFlop console (which would probably return only 52% increase in rendering vs 45%). It may improve the perceived resolution by 30% or more.

This console should be no mystery - you're going to get QUALITY modes at PERFORMANCE frames vs base PS5 in addition to much sharper Ray Tracing when used, and also a significantly cleaner image thanks to the upscaling. That seems like a pretty big win. Playing on PS5 currently and quality mode for games looks sharp enough to me. The issue is with the frames or the AI techniques that ruin the IQ. So if we are improving all those aspects it will be a pretty big value add.

Just remember this is not a PS6, so there's not really a point to increasing the specs well beyond it if it's not going to be taken advantage of anyways by developers. Just clean up the deficiencies of the current console and make it shine the best it can. Then move on to next gen when the tech is ready and more meaningful.

If we are getting quality mode at performance frames, I'll be happy. If they can do that on all final fantasy games and Dragons Dogma 2, I will be satisfied

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Great, so it's going to be 60fps for resolution modes with the possibility of added ray tracing and consistent 4K upscaled image.

That's all I wanted. GT7 is going to look wild.

 

[Proelite]

We'll need to know the RAM bandwidth. That will either make or break the system. The ideal would be 128MB of infinity cache. The second most ideal would be a larger bus.

The slides doesn't sound hopeful if the only mention of memory upgrade was faster memory.

 

[Leonidas]

The console is roughly 70% increase in TFLOPS. If that corresponds to only 45% in real time performance.

But its over 3x increase in Tflops.

PS5 was only 10, PS5 Pro is 33.5 (67 FP16).

45% raster increase is abysmal.

Same thing happened on PC going from RDNA 2 to RDNA3.

7800 XT at 37 Tflops beat the 13 Tflop 6700 XT by around 45%...

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

But its over 3x increase in Tflops.

PS5 was only 10, PS5 Pro is 33.5 (67 FP16).

45% raster increase is abysmal.

Same thing happened on PC going from RDNA 2 to RDNA3.

7800 XT at 37 Tflops beat the 13 Tflop 6700 XT by around 45%...

The TFlops aren't equivalent…..as mentioned multiple times in this thread. Divide in half to get a more apples to apples comparison.

45% is only abysmal if you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Leonidas]

The TFlops aren't equivalent…..as mentioned multiple times in this thread. Dividers in hand to get a more apples to apples comparison.

45% is only abysmal if you have no idea what you're talking about.

45% is abysmal when you consider PS4 Pro was a much bigger improvement over PS4.

And Xbox One X was an even bigger uplift.

 

[Xyphie]

We'll need to know the RAM bandwidth. That will either make or break the system. The ideal would be 128MB of infinity cache. The second most ideal would be a larger bus.

The slides doesn't sound hopeful if the only mention of memory upgrade was faster memory.

Looks pretty grim if these very same leakers are to be believed. None of them have implied it's anything more than 14GT/s -> 18GT/s increase with it still having 16GB on a 256-bit bus with no L3 cache. Not exactly confidence inspiring but I suppose they can get away with it if they keep the same BVH structures between PS5/Pro and just run them faster on the Pro.

 

[Zathalus]

But its over 3x increase in Tflops.

PS5 was only 10, PS5 Pro is 33.5 (67 FP16).

45% raster increase is abysmal.

Same thing happened on PC going from RDNA 2 to RDNA3.

7800 XT at 37 Tflops beat the 13 Tflop 6700 XT by around 45%...

The same thing happened to Nvidia as well, 2080 Ti to 3090 was 2.5x increase in Tflops for a 50% increase in power.

45% increase in non-optimized raster is enough to place it close to a 4070. The biggest gains are obviously RT and AI powered upscaling, which was the main advantage that Nvidia had.

 

[Codeblew]

*in MOST titles, while underperforming in SELECT others.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Yoboman]

Me not understanding any of the specs but ready to throw money away

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

45% is abysmal when you consider PS4 Pro was a much bigger improvement over PS4.

And Xbox One X was an even bigger uplift.

PS4 and XO was starting at much lower resolutions

Furthermore neither of those consoles had significantly better hardware for RT or AI up scaling

Stop comparing different upgrades on TFlops alone.

 

[Spukc]

My uncle at nintendo says this news is bullshit

 

[Leonidas]

The same thing happened to Nvidia as well, 2080 Ti to 3090 was 2.5x increase in Tflops for a 50% increase in power.

45% increase in non-optimized raster is enough to place it close to a 4070.

DF found the 4070 to be around 1.8x faster than consoles in raster. At 1.45x (PS5 Pro) would be a bit behind.

PS4 and XO was starting at much lower resolutions

And?

Furthermore neither of those consoles had significantly better hardware for RT or AI up scaling

PS4 Pro got checkerboarding hardware.

Stop comparing different upgrades on TFlops alone.

I'm not, just pointing out your mistake where you said its a 70% Tflop difference, its not, its over 3x.

And yes, a 45% uplift after 4 years is abysmal no matter how you slice it. The RT and upscaling stuff is good, but that will only bring the console from abysmal RT and abysmal upscaling to something that is good, like DLSS and Nvidia-like RT.

 

[Dr.D00p]

Sony to Rockstar..'just out of curiosity, when's the GTA VI release date?..asking for a friend'

 

[bitbydeath]

3090 is not recommended for 8K.

3090 today trades blows with a 4070 Super, a great card for 1440p.

3090TX, I should have added.

 

[existensmaximum]

So many of the world's leading teraflop scientists in here giving their expert opinions!

Haven't you guys learned anything from the last release?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

DF found the 4070 to be around 1.8x faster than consoles in raster. At 1.45x (PS5 Pro) would be a bit behind.


And?


PS4 got checkerboarding.


I'm not, just pointing out your mistake where you said its a 70% Tflop difference, its not, its over 3x.

And yes, a 45% uplift is abysmal no matter how you slice it. The RT and upscaling stuff is good, but that will only bring the console from abysmal RT and abysmal upscaling to something that is good, like DLSS and Nvidia-like RT.

Checkerboarding is nowhere near as impressive as dedicated hardware that allows for AI upscalng

45% is not abysmal when it basically means quality mode @ 60 fps. That's why they aren't going higher when AI will improve the fidelity (which was already high enough)

This is not a new generation, stop with the false equivalencies. And basic RT in 2020 for consoles was great

Having 2-4x that as an upgrade in 2024 is well worth it. Why does a lower base discount the upgrade?

 

[Crayon]

I had very little interest in the PS4 pro, but this sounds a lot better.

I'm not sold but depending on price, features, and rt support, i could totally trade up.

By 'features', I mean it's ability to affect existing games with and without patches.

And by rt support I mean will games start going in on it. Rt has been around for a minute and it's been underwhelming. The actual effects are great. Have you seen cyberpunk? How about cyberpunk? Would you like to look at cyberpunk again?

We've only just started getting some good showing for rt. Alan wake, avatar. There's been a few along the way like metro that pulled off rtgi with great performance years ago now. Or Spiderman, who just happens to be flying by a thousand mirrors at any given time.

Most implementations however, have been pretty sad. Most console games get fps slashed in half for shadow upgrades that wouldn't pass the Pepsi challenge on any pc. The effects used are too mild. There's very few that truly transform a game. But they exist.

If developers decide to go a little harder on the rt since there's something other than just pc to show it off on, PS5 pro might start looking good.

 

[Leonidas]

Checkerboarding is nowhere near as impressive as dedicated hardware that allows for AI upscalng

No, but it did allow for PS4 Pro to look pretty good on 4K screens. The AI upscaling is something PC had since 2018, its good that consoles are getting it now though.

I'm glad the RT is better too since Sony will probably put more RT effects in games that I will wait for the PC release for...

45% is not abysmal when it basically means quality mode @ 60 fps.

Lets see how Dragon's Dogma 2 turns out on PS5 Pro...

This is not a new generation, stop with the false equivalencies. And basic RT in 2020 for consoles was great

PS4 Pro and X1X weren't new gens either, yet they offered a massive uplift over the base machines.

Basic RT for 2020 consoles was abysmal, PS5 was losing to the lowly RTX 2060, a card that held the title once of being the slowest hardware RT PC GPU, it wasn't until AMD released hardware RT on PC where RT got slower...

Having 2-4x that as an upgrade in 2024 is well worth it. Why does a lower base discount the upgrade?

2-4x upgrade is great, I look forward to Sony exclusives taking advantage of it, and then I will take advantage of those RT features at a later date on PC.

 

[anothertech]

33.5 Tf holy shit. Sony ain't fuckin around

$599 incoming

Take my money

 

[Zathalus]

DF found the 4070 to be around 1.8x faster than consoles in raster. At 1.45x (PS5 Pro) would be a bit behind.

Those numbers are rather meaningless because we are not even sure what's being compared. For example, if you look at Death Stranding a simple 45% increase means it would outperform the 4070. Its all speculation until we have actual like for like comparisons.