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[Trokil]

Honestly It makes sense to send Rey. Force sensitive and all that. it can assume Leia sense that.

How? If they would at least have explained that. Like, I can feel the force in you, you are looking for answers you should join Chewie and Poe to find Luke. But no, she went, she was the lead and everybody was ok with it.

Also it's best to send them anyway as the resistance is probably being monitered and it wouldn't be wise to send resistance troops to find Luke anyway.

By whom? They just lost most of their army. So Starkiller base was merely a setback?

 

[The Librarian]

Can you blame us, when the character/actor himself seemed to have miss that fact...

But he doesn't? He's extremely sweaty and tried to punch the pain away.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Luke was able to contact Leia after he got his hand chopped off and fell down.... whatever the hell it was that he fell down in Empire.

Barely. If she was on a different planet then he'd be fucked.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Barely. If she was on a different planet then he'd be fucked.

I think anyone would be fucked at that point lol

 

[GhaleonEB]

Two neglible mistakes in the grand scheme of things does not make her not a Mary Sue, especially when the first is written to push the plot forward (putting them all on the Millenium Falcon and thus en route to Maz) and the second is immediately followed by her taking out like 4 Stormtroopers despite having no apparent experience with blasters.

First, those were not negligible mistakes, they had enormous consequences, and both stemmed from one of her character flaws. They're there, which undercuts the assertion that she had none.

Also, she hits two before fleeing: one she got the jump on and still missed, and another who wasn't aware she was there and was not far away, she blind sides him. She later hits another from cover who is chasing her. Not exactly marksman work.

Granted, I've already said I don't care about her bodying Stormtroopers. I don't care she is an ace pilot. I don't care she's an amazing mechanic.

The point I was making with the second part wasn't that she wasn't a perfect shot - though she wasn't - but rather her overconfidence and impulsiveness got the better of her and had consequences. These are important aspects of her character.

What bothers me is that she is unreasonably skilled at the Force

Covered ad nausium in this thread and others, but at this point I think it's clear we should move on.

and lightsabers.

Much of the point of the scene early in Jakku is to demonstrate Rey is a skilled melee fighter with her main defensive weapon, a staff, and she used the same style of fighting with the sword later. It's right there in the film as direct foreshadowing of her fighting skills. If that scene were not there, then I think this is a reasonable issue to have, but it was there...

 

[RedRum]

The criminal, borderline misleading under utilisation of Phasma has been discussed quite a lot but there is not much to say on it really. Pretty much everyone agrees she was interesting and should have had much more screen time.

Agreed. I always said if it was Phasma that was fighting Finn in that saber scene instead of some random stormtrooper it would have vindicated her part in the film a bit better than just a punchline.

 

[Toxi]

Including the deus ex earthquake chasm that shows up conveniently between the two fighters to make sure that they both survive?

Well one, that isn't a deus ex machina. The battlefield was already cracking before that point. By definition a deus ex machina can't be something already set up.

And two, yes. It's great imagery and having either character kill the other wouldn't work dramatically. Rey can't die because she's the protagonist, and the consequences of killing Kylo Ren and being tempted to the Dark Side would have to awkwardly shoved into the end of the movie.

 

[Boke1879]

Did any character say she "has" to do anything though? Maz maybe a little bit. But Han was totally ready to let her go back to Jakku and she totally could've instead of go to Luke. There's no indication that anyone was pressuring her to go to Luke. But she did anyway.

Maybe you're right but from the person I gathered her to be, yes she kinda did. She saw Finn fighting Kylo even if he was scared shitless. She formed a bond with Han, Chewie and Finn. To me the person she is. She wasn't going to let someone like Kylo get away with it if she had anything to do with it.

If that makes sense.

 

[Crocodile]

The criminal, borderline misleading under utilisation of Phasma has been discussed quite a lot but there is not much to say on it really. Pretty much everyone agrees she was interesting and should have had much more screen time.

Seriously, what happened here? I felt all the pre-release hype was leading up to having a big role in the movie. However in the end she did NOTHING! Is she even alive now or she stuck in a trash compactor on a planet that blew up?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Omg if I was in that situation I would have shat my pants. That is scary as all hell.

Exactly, he had a great intimidating on screen presence until it's revealed that he's a (semi) regular guy, not a person who's literally more of a robot than a person and burned to hell an back. There's obviously some humor, but not because he's incompetent. Like when he turns around slowly after being told that the droid escaped with a freighter.

"A droid stole a freighter? Really tho? A droid stole a freighter and escaped from you guys? A squadron of death planes and stormtroopers?"

*Proceeds to wreck a computer*

"Tell me more about how this droid stole a freighter. PLEASE test me, and see what happens."

The actor nailed it.

I think anyone would be fucked at that point lol

Yea which is why he struggles. Just like how Kylo struggles. If only I could gif that moment when he's trying to pull it out because it's clearly not working and he's got nothing left but adrenaline. If he was a fully trained official sith lord completely in tune with the dark side of the force those complaints would be way more valid imho.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Is it possible that Rey has had some force training beforehand as a child? Watching the film, I got the impression that she had a lot of this knowledge unlocked in her head as the movie progressed. Things such as her remembering the jedi mind trick and Kylo-Ren reminding her of 'The force' at the end. I feel there's a lot of history yet to be explained with this character and that it will all start to make more sense as the story progresses.

 

[Aselith]

Seriously, what happened here? I felt all the pre-release hype was leading up to having a big role in the movie. However in the end she did NOTHING! Is she even alive now or she stuck in a trash compactor on a planet that blew up?

Apparently she'll be back next time so hopefully she'll come back covered in banana peels and ready for a fight.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

This is an interesting perspective I haven't considered. It really makes Rey his perfect counterpart as she similarly was shown to be enchanged with tales of the Luke and the rebellion, and at times even gets by using second hand knowledge of those stories, such as the Jedi mind trick on that storm trooper even though she has personally never seen it done before. If Ren takes al the wrong lessons and holds onto a fantasy he shouldn't, in contrast, Rey character arc of becoming one with the force is achieved by resolving your own personal issues by moving forward with your life past the childhood fantasies that your attached to (in this case, waiting for a family that will never return). Growing up, in other words, a coming of age story.

That's a good angle to get at it from.

YES. This exactly.

Thank you man!

 

[Henkka]

I don't really understand the post about Kylo Ren being some "Male Power Fantasy"... Or people who criticize Rey not being able to conceive of allowing a woman or a black guy be their surrogate or whatever. It just sounds like a bunch of buzzwords picked up from "Feminist Media Critique for Dummies".

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I think the film is making that very clear. She is captured with ease because she doesn't have her force power yet.

Fair enough. The film also makes very clear that Kylo isnt fighting at full strength.

 

[RedRum]

Is it possible that Rey has had some force training beforehand as a child? Watching the film, I got the impression that she had a lot of this knowledge unlocked in her head as the movie progressed. Things such as her remembering the jedi mind trick and Kylo-Ren reminding her of 'The force' at the end. I feel there's a lot of history yet to be explained with this character and that it will all start to make more sense as the story progresses.

Would't she remember her training though? Especially training at that level? I think she's just gifted in the force. Just how Anakin used his force ability to pilot the POD racer, etc. I'm thinking she might even be related to either Luke or Han. Daughter wise.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The problem is that being Force sensitive inherently makes you overpowered and makes the entire plot revolve around you. This is a thing that gets worse when there's almost nobody in the universe that has trained force powers.

 

[Nibel]

I never heard the term 'Mary Sue' before and when I saw those 'Ray is a Mary Sue' claims on Twitter I had to google it and was baffled by it; do people still watch movies with their eyes anymore or do they scan the screen for moments that feed their pre-occupied minds and bullshit ideas?

And yeah, good post Veelk. I told you dozens of times your posts fit better into the thread format than dropping them randomly into threads. I still think you should tackle that One Piece/Shounen issue in its own thread.

 

[Veelk]

But he doesn't? He's extremely sweaty and tried to punch the pain away.

The way I see it, there are a couple possible interpretations why he was hitting himself.

First, he could literally just trying to be intimidating, beating himself as a way to show "fuck, you think this hurts me? I'm fine". This fits in clearly with how he's putting up a front the whole movie. Even before he gets tangled up in deep shit, he acts confident outwardly, but privately talks to his grandfather's charred helmet how he feels the light deducing him and how scared and uncertain he is. The beating could just be another continuation of that. Another explanation is that he's trying to increase the pain to pump himself up. You know, tap into his berserker rage so that he is a more capable fighter in the short term. I'm not sure how medically accurate it is, but I do know adreneline helps with this stuff. Or maybe he's beating the belt to keep it in place to prevent him from bleeding out. Lastly, it could reflect his emotional turmoil. He's hitting himself out of self loathing for killing Han, a sort of self flagellation for punishment purposes.

And these explanation's aren't mutually exclusive. It could be all of them.

I told you dozens of times your posts fit better into the thread format than dropping them randomly into threads. I still think you should tackle that One Piece/Shounen issue in its own thread.

I might. As I said, I don't read as much shonen/manga as I used to, so it's hard for me to make a sweeping general topic, and if I'm talking about OP itself,...well, I still think it fits perfectly within the parameters of the OT, but as I said in the thread, I'm done with OP for now.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Is it possible that Rey has had some force training beforehand as a child? Watching the film, I got the impression that she had a lot of this knowledge unlocked in her head as the movie progressed. Things such as her remembering the jedi mind trick and Kylo-Ren reminding her of 'The force' at the end. I feel there's a lot of history yet to be explained with this character and that it will all start to make more sense as the story progresses.

I feel like it's the only really sensible explanation myself. They seemed to be hinting at that heavily enough that I'd be shocked if they don't go that route.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The problem is that being Force sensitive inherently makes you overpowered and makes the entire plot revolve around you. This is a thing that gets worse when there's almost nobody in the universe that has trained force powers.

Well not necessarily. The rebels had Poe. If we had a rehash of the "use the force to become good at shooting missiles" moment I'd agree.

 

[Farsi]

I feel like it's the only really sensible explanation myself. They seemed to be hinting at that heavily enough that I'd be shocked if they don't go that route.

Mhmm, you're right and it's really shitty writing when you back yourself into a corner like that.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

He's not incompetent at all though.

- Ignores the droid, which has data he wants, and focuses on keeping the girl. Even if he could mind-break her, having the actual map data would have been more useful.
- Throws tantrums and smashes shit up like a petulant teenager at the first setback
- Lets his precious prisoner escape (all it took was one single defecting Stormtrooper, boy that was easy)
- Keeps his even more precious prisoner under the guard of exactly one Stormtrooper, even after knowing she's strong with the Force
- Keeps around a really stupidly designed lightsaber
- Rushes into battle despite suffering apparently a nasty wound

And while not related to competence directly, him being all emo with daddy (and granddaddy) issues is just really fucking lame.

 

[Vyer]

I don't agree Phasma was interesting. I'm not sure what in the movie really supports her as an interesting character.

If anything, when I first heard her speak and saw her move/march stiffly in her armor, I realized it was distracting because there was like not much nuance in the character as compared to her as Brienne and it was going to be hard for me to not make the comparison. Perhaps JJ and crew came to the same conclusion.

 

[mdubs]

I don't get why people think its such a problem Kylo Ren got wrecked by Rey. First he got shot (emphasized more than once), then stabbed by Fin and still proceeds to more or less mess up Rey until the last bit where she actually uses her force powers which are clearly much stronger than his. It's not like they put either Rey or Fin over him clean, they both barely survived even when he was hurting already

 

[Nickle]

I hope she becomes even more OP in the next few movies, it'd be cool to have a Jedi who has terrifying power.

 

[Into]

Her rapid advancement toward being able to rival a master swordsman and being able to use the force is poorly done.

"Wow you are really complaining about this in a fantasy movie? Sheesh!"

Yet Finn is a trained soldier, from birth, he should by all accounts be the most combat ready of them all, even perhaps better than Han Solo. While Solo has experience, Finn is in his prime shape. Yet Finn nearly craps his pants when he is forced to use the guns very early on in the movie, he can barely get a hang of it. He is more or less a bumbling fool.

Every world, especially fake fantasy ones need to adhere to their rules and conventions. Rey does not. Other characters have to learn and fail. Luke failed a lot, but he learned, the most iconic scene in Star Wars history is Luke failing in ESB, getting his arm cut off by Vader who seemed to give barely 50% effort. Its humiliating and demoralizing, but it also sets up the rematch. What rematch does Force Awakens set up?

The issue is that A New Hope 2k15 needed a lightsaber duel, so the film makers sped up Rey's development, one scene she is shitting her pants, the other she is facing and beating that very menace.

In other words, Rey is A Force Awakens. She has to be able to do everything in A New Hope but also other iconic scenes, such as a aerial chase sequence, lighstaber duel etc.

Let me ask you this: If Luke at the end of ANH faced Rey at the end of Force Awakens who wins? Yeah, there you go.

 

[Boke1879]

Kylo hasn't even proven himself as a skilled Jedi... He kills innocent people who cannot defend themselves, kills his unarmed elderly father, and tortures people for like half his screentime.

Why is it so ridiculous that Finn and Rey can beat him while he's injured, and after he gets whooped they call him back to complete his training? Lol. He shows some impressive force abilities, but he didn't seem that powerful.

Anakin in RoTS would probably body him.

He has great aptitude in the force. But he's literally the only one in the galaxy outside of Luke that is decent with a saber and has control with the force and like you said his training isn't even complete.

 

[Farsi]

It's not like they put either Rey or Fin over him clean, they both barely survived even when he was hurting already

I'm assuming you're a wrestling fan correct? When has a screw job finish ever worked for the heel?

 

[Vice]

Is it possible that Rey has had some force training beforehand as a child? Watching the film, I got the impression that she had a lot of this knowledge unlocked in her head as the movie progressed. Things such as her remembering the jedi mind trick and Kylo-Ren reminding her of 'The force' at the end. I feel there's a lot of history yet to be explained with this character and that it will all start to make more sense as the story progresses.

She was just doing things she had seen in-film. Before Kylo Ren reads her mind he attempts a mind trick on her. The same way he did it to Poe, hand gesture and all.

She got reminded of the explanation of the Force that Maz had given her once Kylo mentions the force.

Her skills with the force could be explained in many ways. She may just be incredibly powerful with the force in the way Anakin was.

 

[Henkka]

I hope she becomes even more OP in the next few movies, it'd be cool to have a Jedi who has terrifying power.

Yeah, I think that's where they're going with her. Rey is going to be most powerful force user we've ever seen, and I think that's exciting. I wanna see new things the Force can do, not just the same stuff established in the OT.

TFA already delivered on this though with stopping a laser bolt and "enhanced" interrogation. But I want moar.

 

[ProudCanuck]

No one ever used Mary Sue with Mad Max character

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Meet John McClane, a cop who put the job before his family and struggles to reconcile with his estranged wife. Also, he's barefoot a lot.

Unless you're talking about the modern John McClane.

Yeah, he fucks up and gets fucked up in the first movie. One of the more human action movies out there. The sequels are something else though, with the possible exception of Die Hard with a Vengenace.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Well one, that isn't a deus ex machina. The battlefield was already cracking before that point. By definition a deus ex machina can't be something already set up.

Still mighty convenient for the crack to show up exactly where it did.

And two, yes. It's great imagery and having either character kill the other wouldn't work dramatically. Rey can't die because she's the protagonist, and the consequences of killing Kylo Ren and being tempted to the Dark Side would have to awkwardly shoved into the end of the movie.

Well, of course they can't die. My point is exactly that, that the crack conveniently happened the way it did just for the plot to work. That's not good writing.

 

[Frog-fu]

First, those were not negligible mistakes, they had enormous consequences, and both stemmed from one of her character flaws. They're there, which undercuts the assertion that she had none.

Also, she hits two before fleeing: one she got the jump on and still missed, and another who wasn't aware she was there and was not far away, she blind sides him. She later hits another from cover who is chasing her. Not exactly marksman work.

Perhaps we're leaning on different understandings of flaws but OK. I don't think making mistakes means a character can't be a Mary Sue.

Sues and Stus are defined by an unbalanced approach in writing whereby the positives far outweigh the negatives beyond reason.

Ethan Hunt is a Gary Stu, but he makes mistakes. He gets caught with his pants down every now and then. That doesn't mean he isn't ridiculously skillful.

The point I was making with the second part wasn't that she wasn't a perfect shot - though she wasn't - but rather her overconfidence and impulsiveness got the better of her and had consequences. These are important aspects of her character.

I haven't once gotten the impresison Rey is overconfident or impulsive on any level. To me she seemed to be going with the flow most of the time and just doing what she could and was capable because she was independent and levelheaded as a result of living a rough life.

Covered ad nausium in this thread and others, but at this point I think it's clear we should move on.

Fair enough. Precedent and pre-established lore are on my side so I don't think this would need much covering anyhow.

Much of the point of the scene early in Jakku is to demonstrate Rey is a skilled melee fighter with her main defensive weapon, a staff, and she used the same style of fighting with the sword later. It's right there in the film as direct foreshadowing of her fighting skills. If that scene were not there, then I think this is a reasonable issue to have, but it was there...

People keep saying this, and to an extent it's true, but this "skilled melee" fighter is somewhat of a mischaracterisation of her skills.

Rey can scrap. She is tough as nails. But she isn't a martial artist or anything. She fights two random thugs at the beginning and gets hit a bunch of times but prevails because she's tougher than they are and she's got a stick she knows how to use.

That does not - and should not - somehow display transferable skill to other weapons. Certainly not lightsabers, and certainly not in the context of a fight with a character that is trained and experienced and has all this fanciful choreography and lethality to them that makes their expertise so self-evident and clear.

I've said it in the main spoiler thread: though I wouldn't write it myself, Rey winning that fight is not the problem. It's the way she won it.

Ren was injured, but he didn't lose because of his injuries. He was winning in spite of them.

If Rey had won by scrapping it out, by being tough and clever, and perhaps even fighting dirty to reflect her survivor background and determination to stay alive - then we would have a great fight with a satisfying ending. Or at least that's my opinion.

 

[Toa TAK]

This is an interesting perspective I haven't considered. It really makes Rey his perfect counterpart as she similarly was shown to be enchanged with tales of the Luke and the rebellion, and at times even gets by using second hand knowledge of those stories, such as the Jedi mind trick on that storm trooper even though she has personally never seen it done before. If Ren takes al the wrong lessons and holds onto a fantasy he shouldn't, in contrast, Rey character arc of becoming one with the force is achieved by resolving your own personal issues by moving forward with your life past the childhood fantasies that your attached to (in this case, waiting for a family that will never return). Growing up, in other words, a coming of age story.

That's a good angle to get at it from.

Holy crap.

Are you sure you don't work at the UPS? Because you're delivering.

 

[Henkka]

Still mighty convenient for the crack to show up exactly where it did.


Well, of course they can't die. My point is exactly that, that the crack conveniently happened the way it did just for the plot to work. That's not good writing.

Well, the whole planet was breaking apart. There were probably cracks everywhere.

They had to separate the two, and they did it in a visually powerful way that told you something about the characters. That's good movie-making.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Her rapid advancement toward being able to rival a master swordsman and being able to use the force is poorly done.

"Wow you are really complaining about this in a fantasy movie? Sheesh!"

Yet Finn is a trained soldier, from birth, he should by all accounts be the most combat ready of them all, even perhaps better than Han Solo. While Solo has experience, Finn is in his prime shape. Yet Finn nearly craps his pants when he is forced to use the guns very early on in the movie, he can barely get a hang of it. He is more or less a bumbling fool.

Every world, especially fake fantasy ones need to adhere to their rules and conventions. Rey does not. Other characters have to learn and fail. Luke failed a lot, but he learned, the most iconic scene in Star Wars history is Luke failing in ESB, getting his arm cut off by Vader who seemed to give barely 50% effort. Its humiliating and demoralizing, but it also sets up the rematch. What rematch does Force Awakens set up?

The issue is that A New Hope 2k15 needed a lightsaber duel, so the film makers sped up Rey's development, one scene she is shitting her pants, the other she is facing and beating that very menace.

In another words, Rey is A Force Awakens. She has to be able to do everything in A New Hope but also other iconic scenes, such as a aerial chase sequence, lighstaber duel etc.

Let me ask you this: If Luke at the end of ANH faced Rey at the end of Force Awakens who wins? Yeah, there you go.

Just because Ben is Han and Leias son doesnt automatically make him a kick as swordsman. Who says Rey isnt every bit as trained as he is in hand to hand/weapons combat? Kylo and Finn were brought up in a training environment before they defected. Rey had to survive on her own on a planet full of hard ass shit. Why cant she be just as tough as anyone else?

 

[mdubs]

I'm assuming you're a wrestling fan correct? When has a screw job finish ever worked for the heel?

But the point isn't that it's supposed to work for him, it's that it makes sense why Rey could actually beat him without being overpowered. Like other posters pointed out, he's hurt, he's angry and he's not finished his training, and while he gets beaten by Rey it's not like she wrecked him even with all of that going on. She barely made it out of there, which is why I just don't see her as being overpowered

 

[ProudCanuck]

Rey is simply Jason Bourne

 

[Angry Grimace]

Well not necessarily. The rebels had Poe. If we had a rehash of the "use the force to become good at shooting missiles" moment I'd agree.

Poe gets barely any characterization throughout the movie beyond "best pilot"

 

[Boke1879]

How? If they would at least have explained that. Like, I can feel the force in you, you are looking for answers you should join Chewie and Poe to find Luke. But no, she went, she was the lead and everybody was ok with it.



By whom? They just lost most of their army. So Starkiller base was merely a setback?

Maz pretty much tells her. She has Lukes saber. Me personally I can make the mental connection that offscreen they talked about this. Again that could have been explained better in that part of the movie but it's also not totally out of the realm of possibility either.

 

[Mandius]

No one ever used Mary Sue with Mad Max character

Mary Sue is not a sexist term, as much as people want it to be.

 

[Crossing Eden]

- Ignores the droid, which has data he wants, and focuses on keeping the girl. Even if he could mind-break her, having the actual map data would have been more useful.
- Throws tantrums and smashes shit up like a petulant teenager at the first setback
- Lets his precious prisoner escape (all it took was one single defecting Stormtrooper, boy that was easy)
- Keeps his even more precious prisoner under the guard of exactly one Stormtrooper, even after knowing she's strong with the Force
- Keeps around a really stupidly designed lightsaber
- Rushes into battle despite suffering apparently a nasty wound

And while not related to competence directly, him being all emo with daddy (and granddaddy) issues is just really fucking lame.

-He ignores the droid because he knows Rey has seen the map. He also provides a reason to his master for bringing Rey instead which is why he's instructed to do bring her to Snoke.

-This is an aspect that is actually used for comedy, intimidation, hence the "Nopetroopers." and to show that he is not a Vader level villain yet. Vader usually calmly force chokes people and has been for years, he's way younger and inexperienced by comparison and this is how they show it

-He was in a completely different section of the ship. He couldn't really do anything at that moment unless he personally watched the prisoner 24/7.

-She's tied up and he completely underestimated her.

-Because again, he's arrogant. He's trying to prove himself and he was told to capture Rey.

I find it quite compelling actually, he most definitely wasn't emo or whiny about his father. Quite the opposite. He was putting up a front of confidence until push came to shove and he needed help to fully go to the darkside. Rey and Finn would've been fucked if he hadn't been shot first even with the emotional distress clearly showing on his face afterwards.

Poe gets barely any characterization throughout the movie beyond "best pilot"

Incredibly charming and charismatic pilot tho. Actually, he has the least flaws of the new characters and is shown as the best pilot with his only flaw being that he isn't force sensitive yet the focus is apparently on how bad of a character Rey is for obvious reasons.... >_>

 

[DrForester]

Mary Sue is not a sexist term, as much as people want it to be.

It's not, heck, one of the most prominent examples of a Mary Sue was Wesley Crusher in TNG. That being said, the term does seem to be thrown out more at female characters than male characters.

 

[Sojgat]

I don't get why people think its such a problem Kylo Ren got wrecked by Rey. First he got shot (emphasized more than once), then stabbed by Fin and still proceeds to more or less mess up Rey until the last bit where she actually uses her force powers which are clearly much stronger than his. It's not like they put either Rey or Fin over him clean, they both barely survived even when he was hurting already

Because she's a girl and/or they weren't paying attention to the movie.

 

[igordennis]

Her rapid advancement toward being able to rival a master swordsman and being able to use the force is poorly done.

Master swordsman? Really? Where and when was that established?

 

[Vyer]

Might have been posted already, but here's what JJ and Kasdan had to say about Kylo:

To that end, Kylo Ren is realizing his full potential in killing his father—it just happens to be for the Dark Side, not the Light. As Abrams tells it, he always wanted to craft a story that was as much about the evolution of the new trlogy’s villain as it was about its heroes:

“Long before we had this title, the idea of The Force Awakens was that this would become the evolution of not just a hero, but a villain. And not a villain who was the finished, ready-made villain, but someone who was in process.”

i think that's pretty evident, and on that front they are succeeding. Kylo, I think, is on his way to becoming irredeemable, as opposed to salvageable like Vader. I'm real real interested in seeing what the 'completed training'/final version of Kylo will look like.

As far as Rey goes, I think it's interesting she is so powerful in the force and how they play that going forward. With hints at touching the dark side as part of her 'awakening' (which is kicked off with a whole lot of fear) I hope the contrast between her and Kylo stays interesting as the trilogy moves along.

 

[MrCunningham]

How exactly?
He doesn't do shit in ANH,

He follows Han's lead while saving Leia.

Shoots some ties down.

Doesn't do shit at the Death Star leading to everyone but Wedge getting shot down.
Doesn't even confront Vader, is about to be easily killed by him from behind before Han has to save the day.
Uses Force to aim better, something that likely could have been accomplished eiter way.


Mary Sue Points
. Swings across gap with Leia
. Gets medal while Chewie doesn't

I think Luke Skywalker is the perfect definition of a Mary Sue character. He starts off with a humble beginning on a farm, finds a message from a princess and learns that he has the abilities of a Jedi like his mysterious father that he never knew existed. He saves the galaxy from the dark empire. Mary Sue's by definition are the writers inserting themselves into the story. I could only imagine George Lucas projecting himself as Luke Skywalker when he wrote A New Hope. The story for A New Hope is almost like a metaphor for a young humble filmmaker going up against large Hollywood system. Of course I am just talking about A New Hope and not the other movies. But that is just from my perspective.

I think Rey is a bit of a composite of Luke Skywalker, or maybe modern day envisioning of that character.

 

[The Librarian]

- Ignores the droid, which has data he wants, and focuses on keeping the girl. Even if he could mind-break her, having the actual map data would have been more useful.

Er, that's because he had Rey by that point, which was more useful to tracking down Luke than the droid.